Backstab nerf.... the upcoming death of DD Operatives/Scoundrels

[elorei]

This is why it's totally fine for my guardian, right now, to sweep crit for 6.4k. You can see me coming, and there are very few nerf guardian posts. However, if an operative did it? That would be recorded, screenshot, and put up on 50 youtube posts all as proof they were overpowered.

 

Maybe no posts about it, but nerfed you are, come 1.2. Sure, you have a new way to build singularity, but 33% increase to cooldowns on blade storm and sweep, leaping onto someone gives them a full resolve bar, and sweep damage is being lowered by 10% base. BASE DAMAGE nerfed by 10%. Let that sink in for a moment.

[beyondkilling]

I am in full BM gear and back stab can kill me in 3-4 hits in 1 stun and im a jug so u need a nerf

[Drakks]

Maybe no posts about it, but nerfed you are, come 1.2. Sure, you have a new way to build singularity, but 33% increase to cooldowns on blade storm and sweep, leaping onto someone gives them a full resolve bar, and sweep damage is being lowered by 10% base. BASE DAMAGE nerfed by 10%. Let that sink in for a moment.

 

Yes, 3 seconds and 10% base. I can still easily crit for over 5k, and 3 seconds is meaningless in pvp because using sweep on CD just doesn't always work out.

 

Ops would get nerfed again after 1.2 if they could do that reliably.

 

None of this matters, because the point was Ops were nerfed multiple times for doing routinely less damage overall -- which points to the problem not being the actual damage, but another mechanism, which I'm suggesting is stealth. Their was a massive amount of crying on these boards for an Op/Scoundrel nerf, but not guardian/juggs even though I could do equal or greater burst. I wasn't boasting about anything, just using that to substantiate my point.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Drakks

[Morticoccus]

Maybe no posts about it, but nerfed you are, come 1.2. Sure, you have a new way to build singularity, but 33% increase to cooldowns on blade storm and sweep, leaping onto someone gives them a full resolve bar, and sweep damage is being lowered by 10% base. BASE DAMAGE nerfed by 10%. Let that sink in for a moment.

 

Leaping onto someone gives them full resolve?

Does that also mean that my leg slash fills resolve/is affected by resolve?

 

Because in huttball that would really suck (no more catching carriers with leap and then snaring them to hell)

[Drakks]

I am in full BM gear and back stab can kill me in 3-4 hits in 1 stun and im a jug so u need a nerf

 

 

You should consider turning to face them, pressing the force push button, and guardian leaping (whatever that is called on a sith) to anyone on your team that can actually play this game. The leap will heal you a little, and then maybe they'll see how helpless you are and kill the scoundrel for you.

[beyondkilling]

You should consider turning to face them, pressing the force push button, and guardian leaping (whatever that is called on a sith) to anyone on your team that can actually play this game. The leap will heal you a little, and then maybe they'll see how helpless you are and kill the scoundrel for you.

 

lol are you stupid? i said when im in a STUN

[Drakks]

lol are you stupid? i said when im in a STUN

 

Are you? Please explain to me how long that stun lasts -- and from that, you can see how many attacks the Scoundrel can actually use on you before you're free and can push him.

 

It's really simply math, go on. Give it a try.

 

You fail if you try and tell me you're dead before the CC ends, btw.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Drakks

[Ahebish]

Yes, 3 seconds and 10% base. I can still easily crit for over 5k, and 3 seconds is meaningless in pvp because using sweep on CD just doesn't always work out.

 

Ops would get nerfed again after 1.2 if they could do that reliably.

 

None of this matters, because the point was Ops were nerfed multiple times for doing routinely less damage overall -- which points to the problem not being the actual damage, but another mechanism, which I'm suggesting is stealth. Their was a massive amount of crying on these boards for an Op/Scoundrel nerf, but not guardian/juggs even though I could do equal or greater burst. I wasn't boasting about anything, just using that to substantiate my point.

 

Point well taken.

 

Let's remove op stealth.

 

remove static barrier

 

remove saber ward

 

remove sent/mar dots

 

remove assassin/shadow stealth

 

remove BH shields.

 

remove 500 mana pool from sorc/sages

 

put ops in light armor

 

remove tank stance from assassin

 

remove tank stance from PTs

 

reduce armor mitigation for all heavy armor classes by 50%

 

remove all gap closers

 

remove all knockbacks

 

Would that be satisfactory?

 

Now read what you said again about stealth.

 

Not critisizing just adding to what would be fair which people have suggested already about removing stealth from ops.

 

:x

Edited March 22, 2012 by Ahebish

[Drakks]

At no point did I say stealth was op, just that it creates a completely predictable balancing problem that occurs in every mmo.

 

Go back a post or two.

 

My point is that stealth needs to be changed from a persistant state to a short-duration buff, and then it would be easier to balance out damage without all the nerfs. "Stealth classes", which are generally just rogue variants, routinely take the worst beatings in terms of nerfs due to pvp -- and it's always because of stealth and stealth based openers being perceived as doing too much damage because the opponent doesn't get the same chance to fight back they do when they can see someone coming.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Drakks

[Bizatch]

So i can't do ops as concealment cuz we suck at that, I can currently make myself useful in most WZs with 1 champion piece the rest centurion if I pick my target well but come 1.2 I have to play healer, reroll or quit.

All of this because people whine about us in 1v1, surely we were designed as the ultimate 1v1 class and people who stray too far away from team mates are our prey, I cant remember the last time I managed to burst someone down with his 2 mates around.

 

I think my best option is to quit as I really cba to reroll to a different class, this class / spec was the whole reason I bought ToR, I really feel like sending some e-mails demanding my money back.....

i suppose we just have to wait and see how bad 1.2 actually is

[Abelf]

The 2-stun death-trap everyone is talking about... broken down by GCD.

 

GCD 1: Hidden Strike 3.5-4k crit

Start 1.5 sec knock down on target

 

GCD 2: 1.5 sec knock down on target ends

Backstab 3-3.5k crit

Target gets 1.5 secs to react

 

GCD 3: Debilitate

Start 4 sec stun on target

 

GCD 4: 2.5 sec left on stun

Shiv 2k crit

 

GCD 5: 1 sec left on stun

Lacerate 2.5k crit

Stun ends before GCD is over

 

GCD 6: Target stuns Operative for 4 sec and commences damage or healing rotation

 

 

Total stun from operative: 5.5 sec

Total damage from operative (assuming all crits with good damage): 12k

Total damage from operative (assuming reg crit rate and decent damage): 6-8k

 

This assumes neither player had a stun breaker.

 

Conclusion: Most classes can damage in a similar fashion. Most classes can stun for similar amounts of time. But, it does not feel as frustrating when other classes do these damage numbers or stun lengths. Players feel agitated when they are focused on something, then an operative knocks them down and surprises them.

[Ich_Bin]

Yes, 3 seconds and 10% base. I can still easily crit for over 5k, and 3 seconds is meaningless in pvp because using sweep on CD just doesn't always work out.

 

Ops would get nerfed again after 1.2 if they could do that reliably.

 

None of this matters, because the point was Ops were nerfed multiple times for doing routinely less damage overall -- which points to the problem not being the actual damage, but another mechanism, which I'm suggesting is stealth.

 

You are very right. Here is the thing though: people complain about the one stealth class (Ops) while they leave the other one (Sins) alone.

 

I think there are two big differences between the two:

 

1) Ops do their burst front-loaded, Sins not as much. This is actually a big advantage for the Assassin as he can decide when to apply his burst. Operatives don't have that choice.

Front-loaded burst seems to upset people more than burst that is happening later in a fight - even though front-loaded burst is a lot less effective.

 

2) Ops use stealth more often than Sins. The reason for that is that Ops NEED their stealth much more because their Hidden Strike is by far their best attack. Again, Assassins have the advantage because they don't need to be stealthed in order to be doing lots of damage.

 

 

I have both an Operative and an Assassin at level 50. I can tell you that the Assassin is far superior to the Operative in every single way.

- Its dps spec (deception) provides better burst damage, better survivability and much better utility than you can have with an Operative.

- The Sins tank spec is even better than their dps spec which is the reason why most people are using it these days.

 

 

 

So Drakks I think this proves your point pretty well.

Both classes use stealth, but Operatives have to rely on it much more and so they are "stealthier" than Assassins. Even though Assassin is the far stronger class, people don't complain about it simply because they don't get jumped on by an Assassin from stealth nearly as often. And the knife sound + giggle probably upsets some people too (which is why they are removing the giggle lol).

Edited March 22, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[beyondkilling]

Are you? Please explain to me how long that stun lasts -- and from that, you can see how many attacks the Scoundrel can actually use on you before you're free and can push him.

 

It's really simply math, go on. Give it a try.

 

You fail if you try and tell me you're dead before the CC ends, btw.

 

is that so? im fail bcuz u dont want ur class to be nerfed? because i get killed in FULL BM b4 the stun ends btw its 6 seconds and they have more than 1 at that so im ending this here bcuz u are a no life noob

[Monkar]

The 2-stun death-trap everyone is talking about... broken down by GCD.

 

GCD 1: Hidden Strike 3.5-4k crit

Start 1.5 sec knock down on target

 

GCD 2: 1.5 sec knock down on target ends

Backstab 3-3.5k crit

Target gets 1.5 secs to react

 

GCD 3: Debilitate

Start 4 sec stun on target

 

GCD 4: 2.5 sec left on stun

Shiv 2k crit

 

GCD 5: 1 sec left on stun

Lacerate 2.5k crit

Stun ends before GCD is over

 

GCD 6: Target stuns Operative for 4 sec and commences damage or healing rotation

 

 

Total stun from operative: 5.5 sec

Total damage from operative (assuming all crits with good damage): 12k <--Not anymore with the new expertise gear/new DR!

Total damage from operative (assuming reg crit rate and decent damage): 6-8k

 

This assumes neither player had a stun breaker.

 

Conclusion: Most classes can damage in a similar fashion. Most classes can stun for similar amounts of time. But, it does not feel as frustrating when other classes do these damage numbers or stun lengths. Players feel agitated when they are focused on something, then an operative knocks them down and surprises them.

 

Truth. Fun fact pointed out that I think is pertinent to the argument.

[Monkar]

is that so? im fail bcuz u dont want ur class to be nerfed? because i get killed in FULL BM b4 the stun ends btw its 6 seconds and they have more than 1 at that so im ending this here bcuz u are a no life noob

 

Hey cutie.

 

Go look up what our CD on backstab is.

 

It is on the first page of the thread.

[Ich_Bin]

is that so? im fail bcuz u dont want ur class to be nerfed? because i get killed in FULL BM b4 the stun ends btw its 6 seconds and they have more than 1 at that so im ending this here bcuz u are a no life noob

 

Thank you for disqualifying yourself from this discussion. Bye bye.

[Bizatch]

I have both an Operative and an Assassin at level 50. I can tell you that the Assassin is far superior to the Operative in every single way.

 

I really wish I had rolled assa.... I really cba making a new toon with the little time I have to play and the summer round the corner

[Ich_Bin]

I really wish I had rolled assa.... I really cba making a new toon with the little time I have to play and the summer round the corner

 

I can only tell you that you will be amazed about what you can do with your Assassin compared to your Operative. The leveling is quite enjoyable too. At level 15 you already have more useful utility than a lvl 50 Operative has. As I said before, even the dps spec is FAR superior to an Operative and the tank spec is a bit like having god mode

 

That being said if a lot of Operative players start unsubbing maybe it will make the developers see reason. But I guess they make up too little of the overall player population for it to really make any difference

Edited March 22, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Kaoci]

i do not expect to pawn every class with a sage. but i also do not expect to get pawned by every class but tracer mercs in 1on1 (because i can interrupt that and its over). funny is, if they switch to the shared tree they are stronger vs sages.

 

if no interrupts/stunns are used, if you let a sage fight vs any other class, so basically only using damage and debuffs/buffs:

every dd of other classes will kill a dd sage. usually with >50% hp left over.

 

my point here is, that a dd sage/sorc does far less damage vs other classes than other classes do vs sage/sorc.

 

now, for this sage/sorc gets utilities to prevent a big part of the damage, like stuns etc. but this doesn'T work out on endgame pvp with engmae equip. the reason is because the sages damage is too low to do dangerous damage during the time your cc/utilites gives you.

 

though, in grp fights if left alone, you can do quite well. but which class can't in this situation?

 

The issue is though are you doing 50 pvp and if yes are you battlemaster? cause apparently bm makes other people who arent bm suck bad

[Howbadisbad]

I can only tell you that you will be amazed about what you can do with your Assassin compared to your Operative. The leveling is quite enjoyable too. At level 15 you already have more useful utility than a lvl 50 Operative has. As I said before, even the dps spec is FAR superior to an Operative and the tank spec is a bit like having god mode

 

That being said if a lot of Operative players start unsubbing maybe it will make the developers see reason. But I guess they make up too little of the overall player population for it to really make any difference

 

When I rolled an Assassin I about flipped out just because I had a knockback, lol.

[Kaoci]

If you pvp quite a bit and haven't figured out how to counter an operative then....

 

 

wait for it....

 

 

wait for it....

 

 

 

 

you might be terrible.

 

This i dont agree with for example there are players who just started there MMORPG experience with SWTOR and havent quite clicked on which stuff they should be doing per class they face for example i remember playing wow all the long years ago where it took me a good 6 or so months after hitting 70 (i joined at start of tbc) before i even knew which stats and abilitys my paladin needed to use in pvp and i pvped alot,

 

So to be honest when you say you might be terrible i actually say you might be a newbie to MMORPG and should ask some players and check forums to see what other people Recomend.

 

ALSO a note to all not every one can kill stealthers i remember on wow i was a warlock for cata and the thing i remember most was ohh DK destroy casters and locks should pwn warriors for me i could never ever beat a warrior on my own but could destroy DK's easily.

 

Also it was said WARLOCKS should be pwned against hunters but beat mages for me the easiest class to beat was a warrior but couldnt even get near a mage enough to beat.

[Ich_Bin]

When I rolled an Assassin I about flipped out just because I had a knockback, lol.

 

Lol yeah, you can stealth next to multiple opponents on the Huttball ramps/Voidstar bridge and knock 3 or 4 (best case scenario obviously) of them off the ledge with one push of a button. Congratulations you have essentially one-shotted half of the opposing team

The 30m range stun is amazing, too. You see someone walking over the fire in Huttball from far away? Press one button and you kill him.

Or the sprint that you can even use in stealth. Not only does it increase your survivability, it also makes stealth-capping Voidstar doors that much easier. Whenever I am trying to stealth-cap a door with my Operative and I get seen and interrupted 1 second before the bomb would have been planted i KNOW that my Assassin would have already capped the door and restealthed.

 

Oh yeah and again: The Assassin also does better damage...

It's really silly how much better the class is

Edited March 22, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Drakks]

is that so? im fail bcuz u dont want ur class to be nerfed? because i get killed in FULL BM b4 the stun ends btw its 6 seconds and they have more than 1 at that so im ending this here bcuz u are a no life noob

 

You're aware from my signature I play a guardian, right? Have since beta.

[Grapenut]

Keep in mind operatives are not inquistors.

[Howbadisbad]

Keep in mind operatives are not inquistors.

 

George Z #1 troll