Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

[Macroecon]

Seeing as you play a merc, and not a PT, you don't really understand how this is crippeling us.

 

I'm pretty sure I do understand. As I stated before, when you live getting a free RS at most once every 15 sec - I actually understand what that feels like MORE than a PT Pyro ever will.

 

I think it comes down to Powertech Pyrotechs being a lot more dependent on Rail Shots than Merc Pyrotechs....you also say that you "usually get a Rail Shot every fifteen seconds anyway". Currently Powertech Pyrotechs get a lot more Rail Shots than that. Therefore, Rail Shot comprises a lot larger portion of a Powertech's DPS than it does for a Mercenary's DPS. Thus, nerfing Rail Shot will have a lot larger impact on Powertechs than Mercenary Pyrotechs.

 

Yes, free RS comprise a lot bigger part of a PT Pyro's diet than it does on a Merc Pyro. On a Merc Pyro those are replaced with Rapid Shots. As I said before, it's a bit tacky for you to complain about being forced to only have 2x as many free RS in 1.2 vs. an even larger number in 1.15.

[Lu_Bei]

What are you trying to say? I am literally saying that 3 3.7k crits in a row is OP, and that that should be nerfed. Are you disagreeing with this? Are you trying to say that our burst is currently underpowered?

So what if you think its OP? Wow. I think its OP too. You were trying to say that a 32 Pyrotech can't know the build order of a 50, which is quite silly since the core of the Pyro build is acquired at about level 25. They're even more Op in an under 50 setting where people only have 11k health.

 

 

I just thought it was amusing that you state you have a level 32 Pyro as if it has any relevance. You not being a level 50 Pyrotech is not why I think you don't know what you're talking about. I think you don't know what you're talking about because of things like:

Someone asked if I had a pyrotech. Derp, derp.

 

I

-You thought the global cooldown was 1 second.

Oh, no, I was .5 second off. how could I do such a thing? I feel so bad about myself. Derp, derp.

-You thought Rocket Punch is going to get a 65% chance to proc PPA.

Oh the humanity, 5% off.

-You thought Thermal Grenade (I assume you mean Thermal Detonator) was a knock-back.

It is a KB, just not on players.

 

-You say Pyrotechs get "a free -8 heat move every other move"

Its called Rail Shot. Derp, derp.

-You say "Maybe nerfing the high end DPS will make winning less dependent on who has the best bounty hunters."

Team with the highest DPS usually controls the game. When was the last time you saw the low end DPS team win when the high end wasn't valor farming?

-You say "It takes around a minute to wind down a pure burning Pyro, longer if hes lucky"

Yeah, it does. Maybe more like 30 seconds, maybe, but I'm not into the whole .5 second accuracy deal as you are

 

 

Are you seriously telling me to derp derp? The entire reason I posted the damage values of our attacks is to give people like you, who don't play Pyrotechs at level 50, an idea of how the class works and what we hit for.

You said I didn't know the damage values that you posted. Obviously I do, because you posted them. Wow.

 

 

I seem to recall typing at least four alternatives in the original post.

 

 

Again, is there something wrong with me saying that our burst is currently OP?

 

 

Yes, I think that the current changes are too much. I've provided a lot of math and examples (my original post was 10 pages long in Word) to back me up. You back up your arguments with completely untrue statements (see above), and anecdotes from your level 32 Pyrotech.

You guys have been pushing quite heavily to keep the 4.5 average that its currently at. The other options are 'please don't nerf us as much'. And you still can't really explain how much change there will be between the 6 and 9 seconds, if any significant impact will occur over the Pyrotech's current end-of-WZ damage. You should be able to say, because if such values are situational then it doesn't really matter, does it?

 

In fact, what you're saying must be wrong, because instead of using facts to retort to my posts you have to resort to overblowing figures of speech and rough estimates to make opponents look bad. If your opinion was in any way legitimate, you wouldn't need to use such tactics.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Notannos

[Gnugthreeonefive]

What are you trying to say? I am literally saying that 3 3.7k crits in a row is OP, and that that should be nerfed. Are you disagreeing with this? Are you trying to say that our burst is currently underpowered?

 

 

I just thought it was amusing that you state you have a level 32 Pyro as if it has any relevance. You not being a level 50 Pyrotech is not why I think you don't know what you're talking about. I think you don't know what you're talking about because of things like:

 

-You thought the global cooldown was 1 second.

-You thought Rocket Punch is going to get a 65% chance to proc PPA.

-You thought Thermal Grenade (I assume you mean Thermal Detonator) was a knock-back.

-You stated that "Pyrotechs, on average, deal 100k more dmg than any other DPS specced class". You are basing this on what exactly?

-You say Pyrotechs have infinite heat.

-You say Pyrotechs get "a free -8 heat move every other move"

-You say "Maybe nerfing the high end DPS will make winning less dependent on who has the best bounty hunters."

-You say "It takes around a minute to wind down a pure burning Pyro, longer if hes lucky"

 

I've pulled all these quotes right out of this thread.

 

 

Are you seriously telling me to derp derp? The entire reason I posted the damage values of our attacks is to give people like you, who don't play Pyrotechs at level 50, an idea of how the class works and what we hit for.

 

 

I seem to recall typing at least four alternatives in the original post.

 

 

Again, is there something wrong with me saying that our burst is currently OP?

 

 

Yes, I think that the current changes are too much. I've provided a lot of math and examples (my original post was 10 pages long in Word) to back me up. You back up your arguments with completely untrue statements (see above), and anecdotes from your level 32 Pyrotech.

 

pwned.

[busterbone]

Oh, no, I was .5 second off. how could I do such a thing? I feel so bad about myself. Derp, derp.

0.5 seconds is a lot when the thing we are talking about is only 1.5 seconds. You were 33% off, I think that's a lot. My entire original post requires you to have the general knowledge of things such as the global cooldown in order to be comprehended, so I guess it makes sense why I have to explain the same things five times to you.

 

Oh the humanity, 5% off.

I specifically stated it in the original post however. It undermines your argument when you get simple things like percentages wrong.

 

It is a KB, just not on players.

Um, that's a big difference. You stated that it was a KB on players, when it is clearly not.

 

Empirical evidence.

So let me get this straight, you honestly believe that "Pyrotechs, on average, deal 100k more dmg than any other DPS specced class"? You are citing this as evidence? Because there is no way you can back a claim like this up.

 

Way to overblow hyperbole. You SAY? I didn't say anything, I wrote it. Derp, derp. You're a real smart one, aren't you, bright boy?

Scroll up to the top of your post. See where you wrote

You were trying to say that a 32 Pyrotech can't know the build order of a 50

? You clearly just wrote that I "said" something. I guess you're a real bright boy too?

 

Its called Rail Shot. Derp, derp.

Except Rail Shot can't be used "every other move" like you said it could. And could you please stop saying "derp derp"? It doesn't help your argument.

 

Team with the highest DPS usually controls the game. When was the last time you saw the low end DPS team win when the high end wasn't valor farming?

That's not why I quoted you. I quoted you because you said "Maybe nerfing the high end DPS will make winning less dependent on who has the best bounty hunters." You clearly said the team that wins is the team with the best bounty hunters, not best dps, which is a laughably untrue claim.

 

 

Yeah, it does. Maybe more like 30 seconds, maybe, but I'm not into the whole .5 second accuracy deal as you are

30 seconds is not "0.5 seconds" off 1 minute.

 

You guys have been pushing quite heavily to keep the 4.5 average that its currently at. The other options are 'please don't nerf us as much'. And you still can't really explain how much change there will be between the 6 and 9 seconds,

Actually, I've explained how big of a change it will be many, many times.

 

if any significant impact will occur over the Pyrotech's current end-of-WZ damage. You should be able to say, because if such values are situational then it doesn't really matter, does it?

I am not talking about End-of-WZ damage, because End-of-WZ damage is highly dependent on AoE and how many healers you/the opposing team had. I am talking about single target DPS, which is what matters.

 

In fact, what you're saying must be wrong, because instead of using facts to retort to my posts you have to resort to overblowing figures of speech and rough estimates to make opponents look bad. If your opinion was in any way legitimate, you wouldn't need to use such tactics.

What I'm saying must be wrong because I have to make my opponents look bad? I'm sorry but you make yourself look bad all by yourself, I am just here to show you how truly wrong you really are.

Edited March 23, 2012 by busterbone
Typo

[busterbone]

Yes, free RS comprise a lot bigger part of a PT Pyro's diet than it does on a Merc Pyro. On a Merc Pyro those are replaced with Rapid Shots. As I said before, it's a bit tacky for you to complain about being forced to only have 2x as many free RS in 1.2 vs. an even larger number in 1.15.

 

Mercenaries and Powertechs are very different classes. Yes, we share some abilities, but we are still very different. Currently, like you said, Rail Shot is not a very big part of your rotation. However, Rail Shot is a very big part of a Powertech's rotation. Thus, we are not being equally affected by the Rail Shot change in this patch.

 

You specifically said:

I live my PvP life with RS being proc'ed only once every 15 seconds via Unload. Not 6. Not 4.5, as some are requesting. Once every 15 seconds.

Therefore, you aren't being negatively impacted by PPA being changed. If you are currently getting one Rail Shot per 15 seconds, in 1.2, at worst, you will still get one Rail Shot per 15 seconds.

 

However, even if you were being negatively impacted by this change, it would still affect Powertechs more because Rail Shot is more important to a Powertech than it is to a Mercenary. You said it yourself:

Yes, free RS comprise a lot bigger part of a PT Pyro's diet than it does on a Merc Pyro.

 

Thus, if something negatively affects Rail Shot it will negatively affect Powertechs more than it negatively affects Mercenaries. Trust me this has nothing to do with being "tacky".

[GianBaal]

Why are you guys discussing this topic so much? There is not much to discuss imo:

 

If I have a chance to win gold, and one to get murr as a compensation, it is idiocracy to make the chance for gold into bronze, but leaving the chance for murr unchanged. Everybody (minus 1) can clearly see this.

 

Gold is rare, but too much and we all know it, murr too less. And every pvp Pyrotech knows that aswell. I, aswell as others, think there is only 1 solution: reduce the cd and get rid of the **** proc.

 

If BW thinks a railshot every 6 seconds is ok (4.5 seconds is WITH global cooldown btw), then let the talent reduce the cd of railshot to 6 seconds. If BW thinks 7,5 seconds on average is enough, then by all means, let the talent reduce rails cd to that.

 

This is not rocket science actually. And actually I'm more or less certain that whoever pulled that idea out of his cylinder will get it in the interna. It#s plainly ridiciolous, and everybody can see it.

 

My 2 cents

[Peytona]

I feel so bad about myself. Derp, derp.

 

You should feel bad about yourself for tarnishing such a constructive thread with blatant lack of knowledge of the class in question.

[Agooz]

Flaming burst has, what, a 1 second cooldown? And you think you're not going to proc once in 6 seconds?

 

The real problem is, you guys know you're riding on the coattails of an OP class and you know changing that will send you back to mediocrity. Learn to throttle.

 

I dont understand why you people keep feeding the troll Lu Bei. He has clearly and repeatedly shown, post after post, and in other threads too, that he is absolutely clueless about the AC, its abilities, its mechanism, PvP in general, yet you guys continue to reply back to him and take him seriously.

 

I for one am done wasting my energy on him.

[Zunayson]

Something else I thought of:

 

As of now, there is sort of an internal cooldown of 1.5 seconds, because of obvious gcd reasons. Although, you won't actually get the proc except every 3 seconds, because 1.5 is to use Rail Shot, and the other 1.5 is to do Flame Burst/Rocket punch. So they only essentially cut your possible burst in half by doubling the cooldown. In doing so, I think they should double the chances of each proc (Or at least close to it). I don't see a problem with Rocket Punch doing 90% (Or even 100%), and Flame Burst doing 60% (Or even 50%, to balance out hypothetical 100% rocket punch).

 

This would as you said make the heat management and damage more constant and less (Bursty).

[Poulay]

up ........

[hoyasaxa]

Up again. This is getting out of line and off-topic. The OP has clearly outlined the problem, and has provided math to back it up. He has also provided several viable alternatives, any of which would nerf the burst of the class while also not gutting the resource management.

 

The most vocal opponents to the OP do not provide facts, but merely anecdotal evidence, which may or may not be true. They have also resorted to the phrase "derp derp," which should tell anyone and everyone reading this thread who has lost the argument.

[PlagaNerezza]

You had me early. I skipped all the supporting math.

 

If you lose crit, crit, crit you should not have loser, loser, loser.

 

I agree.

 

That is fair. It deserves to be looked at. The rest was unnecessary in my opinion but hopefully because it took so long and appears well constructed and thought out it might be seen.

 

Like how GS does not have top class/ac dps output no matter the build.

 

I'd like to see you analyze my busted classes dps output to show bioware why we gunslingers qq on the boards.

[Theology]

Lu Bei's attempt to derail the thread is futile at this point. The OP in this thread, and myself in the Powertech forum has made it very clear that this spec is broken and needs fixed. PPA on a 6 second timer is not acceptable. We've provided math and sound logic as to why it is broken, and can only hope that the people behind the scenes will fix it.

[hoyasaxa]

Lu Bei's attempt to derail the thread is futile at this point. The OP in this thread, and myself in the Powertech forum has made it very clear that this spec is broken and needs fixed. PPA on a 6 second timer is not acceptable. We've provided math and sound logic as to why it is broken, and can only hope that the people behind the scenes will fix it.

 

I hope so too, for your sake man. I thought that BW would at least put some effort into the more underplayed classes to make them more appealing.

 

I was deceived.

[Theology]

So, the question is, how do we get this thread or my thread on the PT forum seen by Georg? =)

[exphryl]

So, the question is, how do we get this thread or my thread on the PT forum seen by Georg? =)

 

All threads are apparently "Seen" By Devs

 

They seem to be avoiding any thread that has "balance" adjustments to a class though even if there is reasonable call for them to say something to quell some of the unrest players are having.

 

While people will say "BW doesn't have to explain why they nerf!", it'd be nice when it's such a drastic change to say "We made this change, BECAUSE of this." or "We made this change due to upcoming changes not in 1.2 for balance" though.

[Jarfunkz]

I really do not understand the nerf. Advanced prototype (middle tree) is horrible. I don't know any good pt/vg that have more than six points in this tree.

 

Pyrotech has a chance to have very good rolls, or it will be very sub-ordinary.

 

Here is how I rate Pyrotech

 

CC- C+ (stuns are not that good, but the chance to snare I give it a C+)

Burst damage- B+

Sustained damage- C+

Aoe Damage- B+ (would be an A if it weren't for the casting time, especially for vanguard)

Range C+, pt/vg need to move around to be between 5 and 15m to be successful

 

Defense- B- Heavy armor is all that this class has going for it

Mobility- D- (Would be an F, but you can spec into charge or the 30%+15% run in adv prototype, again, show me a significant player who has those specs)

Action/regeneration F (worst in the game, by far).

[Jarfunkz]

All threads are apparently "Seen" By Devs

 

They seem to be avoiding any thread that has "balance" adjustments to a class though even if there is reasonable call for them to say something to quell some of the unrest players are having.

 

While people will say "BW doesn't have to explain why they nerf!", it'd be nice when it's such a drastic change to say "We made this change, BECAUSE of this." or "We made this change due to upcoming changes not in 1.2 for balance" though.

 

We made this change, because the moon and stars aligned when a player made swiss cheese out of a sorc and then took out another player at the same time. These two people cried and we really want that $30 a month, because our game is failing. There is no guarantee that you will leave, I am sure that the majority of you were dumb enough to purchase a six month sub, so we have three months to make this a better game for you.

[Theology]

^ Lol

 

Also, I think if the Dev's give it some thought, theyll see how absurd a 6 sec timer on PPA is and re-adjust it. I'll be looking for that specifically in upcoming patch notes as we get closer to 1.2.

[Morticoccus]

It's still a matter of them wanting to remove the gambling element of pyro.

 

As it is now you either roll high and burn the opponent to a crisp, or you roll snake eyes. They removed all benefits and reduced the negative effect chance a bit so now the build will be mediocre instead.

 

A shame, pyros were challenging to fight without being completely annoying (except for that damn grapple ofc.) and this will make everyone roll other classes instead.

[Anelyn]

I really do not understand the nerf. Advanced prototype (middle tree) is horrible. I don't know any good pt/vg that have more than six points in this tree.

 

Pyrotech has a chance to have very good rolls, or it will be very sub-ordinary.

 

Here is how I rate Pyrotech

 

CC- C+ (stuns are not that good, but the chance to snare I give it a C+)

Burst damage- B+

Sustained damage- C+

Aoe Damage- B+ (would be an A if it weren't for the casting time, especially for vanguard)

Range C+, pt/vg need to move around to be between 5 and 15m to be successful

 

Defense- B- Heavy armor is all that this class has going for it

Mobility- D- (Would be an F, but you can spec into charge or the 30%+15% run in adv prototype, again, show me a significant player who has those specs)

Action/regeneration F (worst in the game, by far).

 

So innacurate. So PT pyro burst, only burst in game that deals SAME burst no matter of armor of target (elemental dmg + 90% ARP on rail shot), is B+? Then for the love of God, who has grade A burst in this game? As is well known Pt pyro (and assault vanguard) have highest burst in game.

 

If you troll me with infil shadow or deception sin, I will not even bother replying.

[exphryl]

We made this change, because the moon and stars aligned when a player made swiss cheese out of a sorc and then took out another player at the same time. These two people cried and we really want that $30 a month, because our game is failing. There is no guarantee that you will leave, I am sure that the majority of you were dumb enough to purchase a six month sub, so we have three months to make this a better game for you.

 

Well played sir. Good laugh.

 

So innacurate. So PT pyro burst, only burst in game that deals SAME burst no matter of armor of target (elemental dmg + 90% ARP on rail shot), is B+? Then for the love of God, who has grade A burst in this game? As is well known Pt pyro (and assault vanguard) have highest burst in game.

 

If you troll me with infil shadow or deception sin, I will not even bother replying.

 

I didn't realize Pyro was all elemental, all that Kinetic damage must be an improper tooltips.

I didn't realize after 90% armor pen everybody had the exact same Armor rating.

I didn't realize that 90% armor pen attack couldn't be shielded, easily deflected, etc.

I realize you are an infil shadow or deception sin.

Edited March 23, 2012 by exphryl

[Theology]

well played sir. Good laugh.

 

 

 

i didn't realize pyro was all elemental, all that kinetic damage must be an improper tooltips.

I didn't realize after 90% armor pen everybody had the exact same armor rating.

I didn't realize that 90% armor pen attack couldn't be shielded, easily deflected, etc.

I realize you are an infil shadow or deception sin.

 

^

 

gg

[Macroecon]

Thus, if something negatively affects Rail Shot it will negatively affect Powertechs more than it negatively affects Mercenaries. Trust me this has nothing to do with being "tacky".

 

The "tacky" becomes apparent after noting that while two children are complaining about having some of their cupcakes removed from their possession, one had it reduced from 3 to 2, while the other had it reduced from 9 to 6.

[Serrowherrow]

Still hoping for some dev-love to this thread.

 

I'm going to keep leveling my 34 trooper and enjoy the pvp while I can, but if this goes unchanged and really does smack the class down to being a mediocre DPS spec while tank-sins and shadows pull 400k+ and tanking an entire team.. Meh.

 

I'll just go back to my 50 marauder I guess. I should count my blessings that I actually leveled a class that got buffed in an MMO for a change, just sad since I enjoy my trooper a lot more.