BIOWARE: PPA needs to be 4.5 seconds, not 6, and all is fair.

[Kaarsa]

1 RP and 1 FB have 61% to proc PPA, it is barely "usually". 3 abilities (RP+2FB) is 73%, much better number to call it "usually".

 

In 1.2, after RP+FB, you have 78% chance for PPA proc. Those 2 numbers are comparable. 61% vs 78% is a really big difference. You could say that currently RP+FB have similar chance for proc as RP alone in 1.2.

 

Averaging proc after 3 abilities was an idea taken directly form your post. 2 abilities on average will be enough to get a proc (on average) in 1.2, not now.

 

Point is, you have to throw rapid shots into rotation currently, before 1.2 patch or you will overheat, so patch 1.2 is not changing anything in your (or our, if you will forgive me familiarizing with empire;)) sustained dps in my opinion. Idea that you can currently not use rapid shots at all is a source of all misunderstandings between PT/Vang community and Bioware about this change (again, IMO).

 

PS.

 

Where before it would be:

 

FB (1.5k) RP (2k) RS (3.5k crit) > FB > FB > FB > RS

 

to

 

FB > RP > RS > AA > AA > FB > RP > RS

 

MASSIVE dps loss..

 

Another misconception I missed in first moment.

 

In 1.2, it would be

 

FB > RP > RS > AA > FB > FB > RP > RS if you want to conserve heat. If not, you can go with FB all the way.

 

And currently, you will overheat with

 

FB (1.5k) RP (2k) RS (3.5k crit) > FB > FB > FB > RS, you have to exchange 1 FB for AA to stay below 40 heat all the time (in PVE, in PVP it is always situational as we all know).

Edited March 23, 2012 by Kaarsa

[Kaarsa]

 

You also kind of reiterated our point, however, in that the rotation allows for no wiggle room now that our heat venting has been cut in half. the above math pertains ONLY to proc'ing PPA, leaivng out IM, TD, DFA, stuns, etc. That is why we're upset. we're being bottle necked into using 4 abilities because of the heat dependance of the tree. Having to use heat, to expend heat, on top of an RNG mechanism is just terrible design.

 

 

Can you please explain me how pyro heat venting was cut in half? Even in your example (that lead to overheating for current rotation), you vent heat 1,5 sec later (6v7,5), which is 25% decrease, not 50%.

 

And since proposed rotation for now (3FB+RS) lead to everheating, there is already no place for IM, TD, DFA, stuns etc.

 

In 1.2 you have 1 FB (that one right after rapid shots in my example that has no chance to proc PPA) to use ability with 16 heat cost, or you can use more expensive ability and use rapid shots twice at the next rotation. Again, PVE only, because in PVP when you need stun or DFA, then you need them NOW, reagrdless of rotation, heat etc.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Kaarsa

[Theology]

Can you please explain me how pyro heat venting was cut in half? Even in your example (that lead to overheating for current rotation), you vent heat 1,5 sec later (6v7,5), which is 25% decrease, not 50%.

 

And since proposed rotation for now (3FB+RS) lead to everheating, there is already no place for IM, TD, DFA, stuns etc.

 

In 1.2 you have 1 FB (that one right after rapid shots in my example that has no chance to proc PPA) to use ability with 16 heat cost, or you can use more expensive ability and use rapid shots twice at the next rotation. Again, PVE only, because in PVP when you need stun or DFA, then you need them NOW, reagrdless of rotation, heat etc.

 

Right now, on average, we can proc PPA for 32 heat. We then vent heat via rail shot, making it 24 heat per ppa proc. With the amount this procs now, (every 3 seconds), plus passive heat regen, we can stay fairly vented inthe 30-40 heat range, unless we get unlucky, which happens alot. It's really hard to quanitfy exactly what I mean because of the nature of the spec.

 

In 1.2, We will be averaging Rail Shot every 7.5 seconds, instead of 3-4.5. This means, to prevent over heating, instead of 'filling' our rotation with flameburst, we have to fill it with rapid shots instead. The proposed rotation now keeps us fairly cool due to the amount of rail shotting we can do. By more than doubling the wait between rail shots, other spells no longer become viable because of their heat cost.

 

Does this make sense? I'm on 5 hours of sleep and not very coherent atm. lol

Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology

[Kaarsa]

Not really, because you insist you can proc PPA every 3 seconds. You cant do that on average. You stated in your own OP that you need 3 abilities to proc PPA and that you proc PPA every 4,5sec.

 

If you can proc PPA every 2 abilities now, you could say you can proc PPA after every RP in 1.2 (basicaly the same percentage chance for that to happen, around 60%, and only for RP+FB combination, when RP has 9sec CD, so you cant use it to proc PPA every 3 sec). This is not true, we both know that. You are changing your statements now, when they happen to contradict your own claims. Find error in my calculations, based on your own OP, then I will gladly agree with you.

[Theology]

Not really, because you insist you can proc PPA every 3 seconds. You cant do that on average. You stated in your own OP that you need 3 abilities to proc PPA and that you proc PPA every 4,5sec.

 

If you can proc PPA every 2 abilities now, you could say you can proc PPA after every RP in 1.2 (basicaly the same percentage chance for that to happen, around 60%, and only for RP+FB combination, when RP has 9sec CD, so you cant use it to proc PPA every 3 sec). This is not true, we both know that. You are changing your statements now, when they happen to contradict your own claims. Find error in my calculations, based on your own OP, then I will gladly agree with you.

 

No, I said that FB+RP combined is likely to get you a proc. When RP is down, that moves to 3 FB's. 60 % =/= 75% or even 90%. If you actually read my post youll notice i said 3-5 seconds (alotting for that time that RP is down and you have to use FB x3).

 

Please dont put words in my mouth and accuse me of things that aren't true and learn to use context.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology

[Kaarsa]

No, I said that FB+RP combined is likely to get you a proc. When RP is down, that moves to 3 FB's. 60 % =/= 75% or even 90%. If you actually read my post youll notice i said 3-5 seconds (alotting for that time that RP is down and you have to use FB x3).

 

Please dont put words in my mouth and accuse me of things that aren't true and learn to use context.

 

I read your responce to me. I read your OP. Those 2 post are contradicting each other. this is my last responce to any of your posts. Have a nice trolling.

[Theology]

Whatever ya say. You said our rotation wasn''t going to change at all. How is going from constant flame bursts/rocket punches to ~40% auto attacks not a change?

 

I responded to your post, you attacked me because you didn't understand what I said, then you call me a troll.

 

I even laid out the rotation so you could see it that way too and you still didnt grasp it. What else can someone do to make you realize that you're wrong?

Edited March 23, 2012 by Theology

[Kaarsa]

Ok, I will break my own word and respond 1 more time.

 

How is 1 autoattack in 5 skills 40%?

 

How is constant FB/RP possible when you statisticaly overheat doing it?

 

Why you wonder why I call you a troll and liar when you claim thingh that are obviously not true (40% rapid shots? PPA after on average 2 skills now?please), especially after you staded in OP something else (and I consider your OP well thought and balanced post, for me you just didnt count heat costs of what you consider "current rotation")?

 

Look, I know that currently you have a chance for RS>RP>RS>FB>FB>RS>FB>RS. not significant one, but it is there. It will be gone in 1.2. But claim you can get free RS every 4,5 sec now (on average) is a fat big lie. You can get on average 1/6sec. And you WILL overheat by trying ot achieve this.

 

Again, prove that is not true. Prove that 60% chance on RP(with 9 sec CD)+FB gives you acerage reset every 3 seconds. Because if it is 4,5 seconds on average, you are proving MY point, not yours (4,5 sec to get proc+1,5 sec for RS itself=6seconds). Sure you may be lucky. You may NOT be lucky too. When we speak about RNG, you have to take avarages into account. And 60% is to low to call it "usual".

[Theology]

Ok, I will break my own word and respond 1 more time.

 

How is 1 autoattack in 5 skills 40%?

 

How is constant FB/RP possible when you statisticaly overheat doing it?

 

Why you wonder why I call you a troll and liar when you claim thingh that are obviously not true (40% rapid shots? PPA after on average 2 skills now?please), especially after you staded in OP something else (and I consider your OP well thought and balanced post, for me you just didnt count heat costs of what you consider "current rotation")?

 

Look, I know that currently you have a chance for RS>RP>RS>FB>FB>RS>FB>RS. not significant one, but it is there. It will be gone in 1.2. But claim you can get free RS every 4,5 sec now (on average) is a fat big lie. You can get on average 1/6sec. And you WILL overheat by trying ot achieve this.

 

Again, prove that is not true. Prove that 60% chance on RP(with 9 sec CD)+FB gives you acerage reset every 3 seconds. Because if it is 4,5 seconds on average, you are proving MY point, not yours (4,5 sec to get proc+1,5 sec for RS itself=6seconds). Sure you may be lucky. You may NOT be lucky too. When we speak about RNG, you have to take avarages into account. And 60% is to low to call it "usual".

 

I'm done. I already explained everything in this post, you're just not grasping it.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Theology

[SneiK]

Um, I read your original post Kaarsa, and hope you might still check the thread out, after it once again went to **** like every other thread in these forums. But I'll try giving you a fair response here:

 

Yes, you are right about the said rotation not being completely heat efficient. It wasn't the point. It doesn't have to be. In PvP, there will be times when you have time to cool off anyway (between required bursts). I'm really thinking PvP only here.

 

Also, bear in mind that we used to have that 'lucky' chance to actually burst and keep the heat down. Those average numbers mean that on average, you are forced to do rapid shots. You are absolutely correct (we all do rapid shots, we wouldn't if we on average didn't need to).

 

So the point in short: We will suffer from the heat problems on average proccing (just like we are now), but in 1.2 we also lack the chance to get lucky and not suffer so much. We will just suffer. So, how do we burst without heat problems in 1.2? I guess you answered it already: We don't, really.

 

Again, prove that is not true. Prove that 60% chance on RP(with 9 sec CD)+FB gives you acerage reset every 3 seconds. Because if it is 4,5 seconds on average, you are proving MY point, not yours (4,5 sec to get proc+1,5 sec for RS itself=6seconds). Sure you may be lucky. You may NOT be lucky too. When we speak about RNG, you have to take avarages into account. And 60% is to low to call it "usual".

 

I think Kaarsa made valid points (especially about the rotation when we are not lucky, which we won't be in 1.2 ever again). RP(60%)+FB(45%). The chance, that you will get a proc (either RP or FB) is 1 - (0.4*0.55) = 78%. FB+RP+FB will be 1-(0.4*0.55*0.55) = 87,9%. Now, bear in mind that in 1.2, you have to take into account the timer, which eliminates a lot of the combinations inside those numbers.

 

In other words: In 1.2, you are punished by luck, but you will still be punished by being unlucky. This is the problem I see with BOTH rng AND a timer (I hope they've done their math right). I hope the post is understandable. I have a lot of idea behind it, but it's hard to put it into words without creating a huge wall of text...

Edited March 24, 2012 by SneiK

[Agooz]

Ok, I will break my own word and respond 1 more time.

 

How is 1 autoattack in 5 skills 40%?

 

How is constant FB/RP possible when you statisticaly overheat doing it?

 

Why you wonder why I call you a troll and liar when you claim thingh that are obviously not true (40% rapid shots? PPA after on average 2 skills now?please), especially after you staded in OP something else (and I consider your OP well thought and balanced post, for me you just didnt count heat costs of what you consider "current rotation")?

 

Look, I know that currently you have a chance for RS>RP>RS>FB>FB>RS>FB>RS. not significant one, but it is there. It will be gone in 1.2. But claim you can get free RS every 4,5 sec now (on average) is a fat big lie. You can get on average 1/6sec. And you WILL overheat by trying ot achieve this.

 

Again, prove that is not true. Prove that 60% chance on RP(with 9 sec CD)+FB gives you acerage reset every 3 seconds. Because if it is 4,5 seconds on average, you are proving MY point, not yours (4,5 sec to get proc+1,5 sec for RS itself=6seconds). Sure you may be lucky. You may NOT be lucky too. When we speak about RNG, you have to take avarages into account. And 60% is to low to call it "usual".

 

You are assuming that natural heat venting is linear which we all know is not. You fail to see that since this back to back RS will NEVER happen now, we will constantly be pushed above the maximum efficient heat level if we want to create any sort of meaningful burst, thus causing us to fall back to rapid shots way more often. Using rapid shot once in our current state vents more heat than using it once post 1.2.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Agooz

[Kiri]

Just to put my .02 in in case Dev read these.

 

I am a casual player, and not much into PvP.

 

I play a hybrid spec for fun - mostly solo as there aren't that many people on the server anymore.

 

Don't follow the math, and all the pros/cons. Seems most of them are self interested - much like my own post.

 

I find the chance of getting a rail shot fun. The chance of not getting one fun.

I can probably live with just getting a rail shot every x seconds. But the heat problem would severely detract from the fun and limit my options.

 

Not sure what the point of a percentage chance to proc something is if it is also on a timer that makes that percentage chance 0%. Waste of skill points. Also can proc it when you can't use it. So instead of 9 seconds +1.5 to get the required incapacitated or burning effect up.

 

Kiri - already looking for something else fun to play.

[nDjiin]

Some very insightful posts here - the Devs really need to check this out and then go back and change what they are considering doing to this class.

 

Tbh what was wrong with it as it was? So what if it was a 'Jedi Killer'? Who says the force users have to be infallible in every situation? I know the DPS was high but you take into account the PT's lack of utilities and speed (on the pyro tree), I think this evens things out with say a marauder / assassin.

 

If they do decide to leave the changes as they are, they need to add a cc and / or a speed buff (or something to make the class more useful in PvP). The increased heat build up is worrying me too.

 

I dont know, I dont want to come across as whining, but I play games to enjoy myself - and I am fed up with BW nerfing 1 class and leaving other (already OP classes) alone.

Edited March 24, 2012 by nDjiin

[SneiK]

You are assuming that natural heat venting is linear which we all know is not. You fail to see that since this back to back RS will NEVER happen now, we will constantly be pushed above the maximum efficient heat level if we want to create any sort of meaningful burst, thus causing us to fall back to rapid shots way more often. Using rapid shot once in our current state vents more heat than using it once post 1.2.

 

Isn't 5 heat/sec the max regen? If so, it validates his point even further. If EVEN max regen will make your FB RP RS overheat ON AVERAGE (Because not everything procs).

 

Kaarsa's point, the way I saw it: You have to use rapids now, if you don't get lucky procs. 1.2, you will not get lucky procs at all, so you will still use rapids. The exact amount of heat/rapids/procs and math is yet to be shown in any post, but I see his point anyway.

 

If you want to proove it wrong/right, please give us some solid information to support your claims, because nonlinear heat venting supports HIS point even more.

[Kaarsa]

Thanks SneiK, this is exactly what I was trying to say.

 

Now, I understand we will have more troubles with heat management during burst period in 1.2 than now, but I think it was actually BW goal - make our burst lower and more situational (ie. you have to decide if you want to get burst or you want better heat management, not like now, when burst IS our heat management).

 

Fact that our long term DPS should not change (IMO) supports my theory that this nerf was well thought out by BW - it is nerf of burst only, sustained dps in PVE is untouched - do you think it is just a coincidence?

 

And let me say it again:

 

I know that pyro PT was nerfed, I am not arguing with that. I only think that it is not gamebreaking nerf, nothing even close to forcing us to use rapid shots 40% of the time or cutting our heat venting in half.

 

PS. Possible burst rotation in 1.2

 

FB (proc) > rapid shots > TD > RS > RP (60%to proc PPA) > RS (and TD explosion)

 

Still not bad:)

[Gomezie]

Go try it out.. youll take back what you just said

[Theology]

As you pointed out, karsaa, I dont think our sustained damage will suffer too much with the 6 sec ICD, but I'm still very adament on making PPA a fair proc, allowing both for 'good' rng and 'bad rng.' a 4.5 second timer would do just this. It would also take a little pressure off of the risk of resetting RS when it's not on CD

[ausmisc]

Powertechs/Vanguards are already one of the least played classes aren't they? Bottom 2 or 3 I believe... Being the worst PVP tanks and now gimping their main DPS option and making one of the common specs almost entirely unviable it's only going to make them less played I guess.

 

As a pyro PT I could see it being a bit overpowered, but I saw that as being counteracted by our lack of real utility, we could kill well but went down fairly easy. Now we don't kill and go down fairly easily still heh.

 

I will have to give it a go once 1.2 goes live on the normal servers, but honestly I'm thinking 6seconds is far too long and i'll probably end up playing an alt more..

 

A problem we face as being one of the least played AC is that there aren't hordes of us to make a fuss on the forums, so it may detract from our chances of being heard/listened to. They can gimp us and make 97% of people happy.

Edited March 25, 2012 by ausmisc

[eatadee]

We have no utility. Our damage was our defense. Our shields are a joke, armor is a joke and we have no get out of jail buttons like every other class. This is pvp mind you, and I'll probably just end up playing my marauder alt like everyone else. Hopefully they read this thread and do something about it. I spent 90 percent of my time in pvp only since launch, 7x valor and I think it's just me and one other powertech playing in the 50 bracket on my high pop server. Pending changes were both are gonna quit or roll with new toons, and I'm sure it's somewhat true on other servers too.

[Ishly]

1 save ability

3 damage buttons

vs

5 saves

10+ buttons

i reroll to sent )

[sensiblepoast]

They can gimp us and make 97% of people happy.

 

Well they did make a lot of people unhappy with the sorc nerfs.

 

But yes, I'm too now on the sentinel boat, and depending whether you can spend legacy points to level another class, shadow. Enough of this commando (lol at the "dynamic play" changes) & vanguard nonsense.

Edited March 27, 2012 by sensiblepoast