SWTOR and the Giant Contradiction.

[Blackardin]

My resume reads quite similar. But we used meters.

Our server firsts were on competitive servers though.

Zing

 

See, exactly what I stated.

 

They are not even in game and here we have the, "my Schwartz is bigger then yours, cause...". argument coming front and center. ;p

 

 

If you beat content with meters, it was ramped for those meters. If you beat content without meters, it was ramped for play without meters. You are not "better" because you have done one or the other. It has no effect on the size of your Schwartz. ;p

[Ujest]

This topic always brings out those bad guys with bad specs. They say no to meters.

 

Your proof? Or are you just passing gas?

[Monoth]

Will you be able to? Yes, in theory. Easily? Heck no. Easy is being able to do it on the fly and looking at a parser or damage meter and seeing everyone's data so you can look at it and see who is or isn't doing the required dps. As I stated in the original post, in 1.2 you will have to have each member run the parser, upload the data or send it to someone, have that person look over each and every log and decide who is or isn't doing the correct dps. That is very time consuming. Why are they going to have to someone look over it? Because it's easy to lie about your numbers especially when it is you that is the one not performing.

 

Anyway, like I said. Either remove enrage timers or give us public logs for quick and easy evaluation.

 

 

Im pretty sure in Age of Conan it also only outputted a log file you had to exit the game to view, BUT programs did come out that you could run and it would output the dps figures right in game chat for everyone to see. I'm sure someone will create a similar program for SWTOR...

 

But I agree about Rage Timers, it's lazy game design....

[Blamminator]

/hug

......

 

/hug

 

Man, that does feel good

[NoxiousAlby]

Either enrage timers need to go or public dps meters brought in, OP's right having one without the other is silly.

[amantheil]

This topic always brings out those bad guys with bad specs. They say no to meters.

 

It also brings out bad players who ignore fight mechanics so they can brag about being the top DPS guy, even though they helped cause a wipe because they refused to do anything other than stand and pew pew on a single target.

 

See, I can make broad, sweeping generalizations too.

[Blackardin]

Either enrage timers need to go or public dps meters brought in, OP's right having one without the other is silly.

 

Only if content is ramped to the level of MMO shooter where encounters are so finely tuned as to require meters to succeed. That is not the case here.

 

Enrage timers are a must. They are only a limiter that states that one has so much time to complete the encounter. The two do not go hand in hand unless one is seeking a hard core game that, again, requires greater planning outside the raid then actual raiding.

 

This is not a bad thing in and of itself. It is just not what is being sought after in this particular game. To introduce them would change the entirety of the game from one of story line and community, to fast focus, world first, hard core encounters where all else is focused around that singular goal.

[Drewser]

Im pretty sure in Age of Conan it also only outputted a log file you had to exit the game to view, BUT programs did come out that you could run and it would output the dps figures right in game chat for everyone to see. I'm sure someone will create a similar program for SWTOR...

 

But I agree about Rage Timers, it's lazy game design....

 

I agree when they could easily add a story element that could act as an enrage timer.

 

Something as simple as the boss blocking an entrance you need to get through in 5 minutes to stop a ship from taking off.

[Blackardin]

It also brings out bad players who ignore fight mechanics so they can brag about being the top DPS guy, even though they helped cause a wipe because they refused to do anything other than stand and pew pew on a single target.

 

See, I can make broad, sweeping generalizations too.

 

Oh man! Did you ever hit a sore spot.

 

I can't tell you how frustrating it can be watching someone get toasted, see our raid wipe, because they were so totally focused on the meter that they either failed to move, failed to use vital, raid saving utility, or brought us into a next phase too early.

 

This is another valid point to be discussed. Those who seek meters as a means of increasing challenge and competition also compete for top spot on those very meters. I tend to doubt that any of us have not heard, "I topped the meters on that last fight", and very few of us have not seen meters spammed in raid or party chat....and sometimes by some jackwagon who screws up runs far more then he enhances them. Right?

Edited March 20, 2012 by Blackardin

[Blackardin]

I agree when they could easily add a story element that could act as an enrage timer.

 

Something as simple as the boss blocking an entrance you need to get through in 5 minutes to stop a ship from taking off.

 

Actually a great idea.

 

See, slog through these posts enough and you do find a gem or two....sort of like RNG crafting. ;p

[Frostvein]

I think the fact that only 38% of SWTOR players have even played an Op says that hardcore raiders make up a VERY small minority (given that I doubt every single player in that 38% is a min maxer, since I myself have played several ops, just for fun).

 

So I think SWTOR will do just fine without them.

 

Can we stop quoting that number as gospel?

 

Until Bioware clarifies what they meant, that number could be meaningless.

[Jett-Rinn]

And your favourite mmo just left with them.

 

Not really only 38% even stepped foot inside an operation...and most of them went

Yawn... when are you doing more story?

 

SWTOR's main demographic isn't hardcore progression Raiders; which is why I think it's pretty dumb for Bioware to keep wasting all this time and money kissing their butts and trying to get them to stay.

[genesiser]

Not really only 38% even stepped foot inside an operation...and most of them went

Yawn... when are you doing more story?

 

SWTOR's main demographic isn't hardcore progression Raiders; which is why I think it's pretty dumb for Bioware to keep wasting all this time and money kissing their butts and trying to get them to stay.

 

As already pointed out, that number was based off level 50s and not accounts that have level 50s. Let me give you an example of why that number is not a good thing to use.

 

Say you have two people. One of them has one level 50 and the other player has five level 50s. Both players raid, but both players only raid with one character. So now you have six level 50 characters, but only two of them have run an operation, or 33% of the level 50s between the two. So even though two people raid or 100% of the two people, when adding up their characters that raid as opposed to the two individuals, you get 33% instead of 100%.

[AidanLightwalker]

Nope. You are making it more complex than it needs to be. Just have guild members playing DPS characters run their normal rotation on a combat dummy submit that log and compare.

 

They dont even have to log out, alt + tab out and run the parser, see the numbers, alt + tab back in, rinse and repeat.

 

This should be no problem, after all, everyone is playing on i7s with 560ti or better, right?? Or at least that's what everyone who has a high end machine just stumblin on this game claim to have.

[downface]

There not in it for the long run. Suprising people are just realising this now.

 

This! hits the nail square on the head, folks. Bioware and EA are not evaluating game performance and player happiness based on an idea of having this game around for a long time. More like, for a while. Everything in big business has been moving towards the short-term profits since the 1980's. No reason for this industry to not do it also, apparently.

[Drewser]

Actually a great idea.

 

See, slog through these posts enough and you do find a gem or two....sort of like RNG crafting. ;p

 

They could even have a viewable timer running like a countdown to take-off so you can see how much time you have left.

[Jett-Rinn]

As already pointed out, that number was based off level 50s and not accounts that have level 50s. Let me give you an example of why that number is not a good thing to use.

 

Say you have two people. One of them has one level 50 and the other player has five level 50s. Both players raid, but both players only raid with one character. So now you have six level 50 characters, but only two of them have run an operation, or 33% of the level 50s between the two. So even though two people raid or 100% of the two people, when adding up their characters that raid as opposed to the two individuals, you get 33% instead of 100%.

 

 

 

Yeah that is the kind of screwy math that says there is actually less than 100K subscribers when BioWare says there is 1.7 million.

[genesiser]

They could even have a viewable timer running like a countdown to take-off so you can see how much time you have left.

 

Or maybe instead of having an arbitrary dps requirement, they could have bosses do some super massive attack where if one person gets hit by the attack, then the whole group gets wiped out and if everyone avoids it, you get to keep fighting. That way bosses would be more about group coordination and skill vs if you don't have the right amount of dps, you wipe, and having more dps just means faster kills.

[Drewser]

Or maybe instead of having an arbitrary dps requirement, they could have bosses do some super massive attack where if one person gets hit by the attack, then the whole group gets wiped out and if everyone avoids it, you get to keep fighting. That way bosses would be more about group coordination and skill vs if you don't have the right amount of dps, you wipe, and having more dps just means faster kills.

 

I am all for variety of boss types.

 

I'd also like to see a swarm type encounter with a string of not so strong mobs keep coming and they need to be blocked from reaching a certain point. If enough get through than it triggers a disastrous effect (wipe).

 

So the fight is more the coordination of handling the mobs, rather than a big tank and spank.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Drewser

[Derbefrier]

I agree with the sentiment that dps meters are a crutch. So are threat meters amd mods that put huge letters on the screen telling you to move out of the fire. That very fact that all the content has been cleared says dps meters are not needed amd that the failure lies in your leadership not the game.

[NotDonnaReed]

They're trying to please two disparate groups of people:

 

1. The story folks--These are the people who roll an alt the minute they turn 50.

 

2. The end game folks--These are the people who run dailies or hard modes the minute they turn 50.

 

The problem is, the story folks feel that their subscription fee entitles them to experience everything the game has to offer, including hard modes and operations, and they're worried (and rightly so) that a DPS meter will prevent them from doing that.*

 

The end game folks understand that downing bosses is mostly about numbers. You put out N DPS, and you loot the boss. You put out N(0.75) DPS, and you hit the enrage timer.

 

I'm not sure it's possible to please both groups of people with the same game.

 

*Please understand that I used to be one of these people. I complained bitterly in a certain expansion of a certain game when I rarely got to do hard mode dungeons, let alone raids, because I didn't understand how to min/max at the time and I thought everything should be accessible to me simply because I paid the subscription fee. If I'd installed a DPS meter (I didn't even know there was such a thing at the time), it would've been painfully obvious to me why I was not getting invited to those raids.

[Drewser]

They're trying to please two disparate groups of people:

 

1. The story folks--These are the people who roll an alt the minute they turn 50.

 

2. The end game folks--These are the people who run dailies or hard modes the minute they turn 50.

 

The problem is, the story folks feel that their subscription fee entitles them to experience everything the game has to offer, including hard modes and operations, and they're worried (and rightly so) that a DPS meter will prevent them from doing that.*

 

The end game folks understand that downing bosses is mostly about numbers. You put out N DPS, and you loot the boss. You put out N(0.75) DPS, and you hit the enrage timer.

 

I'm not sure it's possible to please both groups of people with the same game.

 

*Please understand that I used to be one of these people. I complained bitterly in a certain expansion of a certain game when I rarely got to do hard mode dungeons, let alone raids, because I didn't understand how to min/max at the time and I thought everything should be accessible to me simply because I paid the subscription fee. If I'd installed a DPS meter (I didn't even know there was such a thing at the time), it would've been painfully obvious to me why I was not getting invited to those raids.

 

They should be able to get both groups access by using "Story Mode" but then the complaints will be centered around gear drops.

[MasterKayote]

The enrage timers on this game are piss easy, even in HM's. I think theyre mostly there to ensure no one is just slacking pressing "1" the entire fight with one hand, eating a hot pocket with the other, and watching tv. They dont want players focusing on their DPS numbers, more on the mechanics and visual cue's ... but they also dont want people to purposefully slack.

 

Enrage timers dont automatically bring a necessity for meters. The current game is full proof of that fact. Only snob OCD control freak group/raid leaders who have an uncontrollable need to be perfect off the bat, control everything and treat others as nothing but an extra disposable tool to use towards their goal ... "need" meters. The rest of us, who play the game just to have fun with others and dont throw a temper tantrum because we "didnt win today" are perfectly fine without them ... even with enrage timers.

 

Eithe rway theyre doable now even without perfect rotations, specs, and/or meters ... theyre not needed. Either way theyre coming in 1.2.

[NotDonnaReed]

The enrage timers on this game are piss easy, even in HM's.

 

I feel like you're trolling here, and I can't allow you to spread misinformation.

 

The enrage timers are tight on at least one boss in every hard mode. The only hard mode where enrage isn't a serious issue is Kaon Under Siege, and only because you're kiting that boss anyway. If you kite him properly, and use the environment properly, you can still kill him after he enrages.

 

If you're only planning to farm the first boss in every hard mode until you get better gear, then yeah maybe enrage timers are not an issue. But if you hope to complete the hard modes, there will be at least one boss in each flashpoint that gives you a run for your money.

[EternalFinality]

Enrage timers are the LAZIEST way to artificially inflate difficulty of an encounter. It basically forces group composition as well - notice how every single hard mode flashpoint is run with 2 dps 1 tank 1 healer? Enrage timers.

 

Used to run flashpoints with 2 tanks 1 healer 1 dps or 1 tank 1 dps 2 healers all the time while leveling. (Or once, hilariously, 3 dps 1 tank) It wasn't as fast as optimal party set up but there weren't usually many problems. Now group composition is basically locked. For 8 man raids, 1.5 tanks 4.5 dps 2 healers. For Hard Mode flashpoints, 1 tank 2 dps 1 healer. No originality and thus there can be little originality in encounter design (strong adds are basically a no-go since you have no reliable off-tank, so that's why you see so many encounters with weak or easily aoe-able adds, or in Operations adds you are forced to just cc and ignore)

 

Fail design. Bioware should have learned from their betters.

Edited March 20, 2012 by EternalFinality