PvP AP in 1.2 - is anyone else super excited?

[dardack]

As much as I would love to play an AP, 1.2 changes are still not good enough. faster quell, while nice, is not something to base a tree on. The survivability skills in the tree never could compensate for the lack of bursts, might as well go shieldtech and survive way longer, while still being able to pick up the bells and whistles of AP. Also FT will not make this tree effective in any way. Its only purpose was to protect a door in voidstar and that is situational most of the time. But again it is not a finisher nor a burst that will win you a battle, let alone a WZ.

 

And before someone jumps on my back, I am not looking for the AP to be another burst dps similar to pyro. Hec, the AP was supposed to be our PvP tree. To me it just seemed that they had a pool of talents and they randomly slapped them on both trees and Pyro just ended up with the better ones. But does each tree have a specific focus? nope.

FT and Immolate along with the their respective talents should have been on the Pyro tree, and that tree would be our PvE spec. PPA or some other decent burst proc should have been in the AP tree and enhancing our railshots. RB should have been a burst damage with maybe a stun (not a dot).

Maybe I am alone in this, but I do not see any real focus on a concept in either trees. People loved the pyro, because it is great for both pvp and pve, but we all know it was a little over the top.

I know this is a long shot, but I would be for a complete revamp of both trees.

 

I know it's not 1.2 yet and I agree Pyro's burst is ridiculous in pvp. I've just went to AP to get used to it, try it out. If you do things right you can have decent burst with no heat issues.

 

Although I will miss dps'ing in tank cylinder, but AP relies too much on the high energy cyl.

[Assaultrooper]

I know it's not 1.2 yet and I agree Pyro's burst is ridiculous in pvp. I've just went to AP to get used to it, try it out. If you do things right you can have decent burst with no heat issues.

 

Although I will miss dps'ing in tank cylinder, but AP relies too much on the high energy cyl.

 

lol I tried it out and the "burst" comes entirely from flamethrower (WHICH IS AWESOME if the changes hit live) if you use ur relics as a Pyro specced, at the start of the fight you wont noticed ANY difference

 

Its an OK spec, really lag-dependant tho... I can go as far as to say that right now Id prefer to be in AP than in Pyro when facing Marauders atleast

[ALDrinkwater]

Think ima still rock the ironfist build. so i do go into the AP tree a little bit. but im gladd we now have 3 viable talent trees.

 

Yay for finally being on par with all the other class! :D:D

[Assaultrooper]

Think ima still rock the ironfist build. so i do go into the AP tree a little bit. but im gladd we now have 3 viable talent trees.

 

Yay for finally being on par with all the other class! :D:D

 

Or be equally subpar with all the "main" classes (Assassin/Marauders)

[Orsian]

I just switched from Pyro to AP and I gotta say, Hydraulic Overrides alone was worth it. Not being able to be knocked down, slowed or pulled is awesome when beating on a healer.

 

One thing people seem to overlook is the crit damage bonus for Flame Burst, with my crit around 30% in war zones, I typically flame burst for 2.3k of damage. The Immolate crits for 3.4k and while RB is somewhat subpar damage wise, 1.1k on a crit, it does open them up for the autocrit railshot. It's not insane ****wtfloludead burst like pyro is once in a blue moon, but it is dependable, high dps, with options.

 

Carbonize + 5 stack proto flamethrower + 220 crit/surge relic = dead people either in groups or just one at the time as it crits for 2.5k a tick. I've had as many as four people in mine and one was a tank guarding a healer in the cone. Heh Heh Heh, that tank melted like a snowcone on a tin roof in texas!

 

Adv Proto is the new Pyro after 1.2

[Gomezie]

 

Adv Proto is the new Pyro after 1.2

 

lol its soooo not.. not in any way, shape or form

[Theology]

^ that.

 

Pyro is now eliminated after 1.2. Shieldtech or Ironfist or reroll. GG

[dardack]

^ that.

 

Pyro is now eliminated after 1.2. Shieldtech or Ironfist or reroll. GG

 

Eh, i'm actually like AP even now. Plus with some of the changes coming, I think i'll like it more. Never was down with iron fist, shieldtech is meh better to go iron fist then shieldtech IMO.

[exphryl]

I've been getting used to the 0/23/18 (1/22/18 Variant) Build in PvP last few days.

 

I think this is my new favorite build >_< While PPA still impacts it, it's a lot less as it's more of a versatile dps build rather then a face melting dps build.

 

I still can't rationalize going 31 AP even with the "changes" to Flamethrower, talking PvP only at that is.

Edited March 22, 2012 by exphryl

[Taerrik]

In ranked matches that flamethrower is going to benice to have. Punish people for balling up easy. It ticks quicker, upfront, and adds a snare.

 

My issue with flamethrower right now is the posistion indication in this game. Because its aoe is so small, where someone is on your screen might not be where they stand, and the FT will miss them entirely

[Theology]

Flamethrower will never, ever work in rateds against a good team

[Assaultrooper]

Flamethrower will never, ever work in rateds against a good team

 

Remember tho we are talking of pug based "ranked" warzones :/ good team will not be there 90 percent of the time.

[Agooz]

Flamethrower will never, ever work in rateds against a good team

 

nor a bad team lol

[BlazingShadow]

^ that.

 

Pyro is now eliminated after 1.2. Shieldtech or Ironfist or reroll. GG

 

And this is why the forums are the worst place to go for pvp "protips"

[Orsian]

I have switched to Advanced Prototype for the last week and I enjoy it more than I did playing Pyro. Why? because it's much more dependable and effective dps.

 

I'll repeat that one more time, it's much more dependable, and effective dps.

 

Dependable, because I know how my rotation will work, and effective because I can do 8k damage in 3 gcd's if I set it up right. Not if I get lucky on procs.

 

Yeah, I know it's not a lucky string of 3.4 - 3.9k Rail Shots that devastate a 20k hp Jedi Knight, it was never meant to be.

 

What it is, and I run a 31 pt build, is a healer-killing build.

 

6 second interrupt on tap.

 

Immolate crits for 3.1k with about 73% surge.

 

Follow that with a free Rocket Punch, 2.5k, same as pyro.

 

Flame Burst crits for 2.2k with 73% surge. 1.1k on a normal hit, and the thing is, it's almost all Elemental damage, the only weak spot is your reliance on Tech abilities, that means a good Tankasin will shut down your rotation for 5 seconds, time to stun and walk away.

 

Heat management is awesome because the heat removal proc happens FIRST then the six second counter starts. I can literally spam Flame Spin 5 times in a row, and be able to launch a Flamethrower or other ability with less than 25 heat cost.

 

Pyro has to have those rail shots to cool off, and you have to be lucky to get them or you've just heated yourself up past 75% in the first rotation.

 

The other overridingly awesome thing about Adv Proto is Hydraulic Overrides and the in-combat speed boost. It's like being in fast forward compared to everyone else, also, you don't get knocked down, or snared, or grappled, it makes for the perfect forward passer in Huttball.

 

Get the ball off the rack, pop HO, and your bubble and only take 55% damage from everyones attacks (the ability that reduces damage by 20% while stunned stacks with ES) until you can pass the ball to the waiting sorc or assassin.

 

 

To the Naysayers about the flamethrower usage I have only this to say, I use it, I get kills with it even now, once it's uninterruptable, it will be much more deadly. On a crit, with full stacks of Prototype Flamethrower, mine hits all targets equally for around 2.4k, excellent for keeping people from disarming the bomb in voidstar.

 

In closing, all I have to say is, I'm using it, getting kills, supporting my team and we win matches. My damage numbers aren't what they were with pyro, which has a bit more synergy with Rapid Shots, Unload etc on burning targets, but I don't ever have to use Rapid Shots because heat management is so much easier. Anyways, that's my take, disagree if you like, but if you haven't tried it, maybe you should just to use something with a few more tools.

[Agooz]

I have switched to Advanced Prototype for the last week and I enjoy it more than I did playing Pyro. Why? because it's much more dependable and effective dps.

 

I'll repeat that one more time, it's much more dependable, and effective dps.

 

Dependable, because I know how my rotation will work, and effective because I can do 8k damage in 3 gcd's if I set it up right. Not if I get lucky on procs.

 

Yeah, I know it's not a lucky string of 3.4 - 3.9k Rail Shots that devastate a 20k hp Jedi Knight, it was never meant to be.

 

What it is, and I run a 31 pt build, is a healer-killing build.

 

6 second interrupt on tap.

 

Immolate crits for 3.1k with about 73% surge.

 

Follow that with a free Rocket Punch, 2.5k, same as pyro.

 

Flame Burst crits for 2.2k with 73% surge. 1.1k on a normal hit, and the thing is, it's almost all Elemental damage, the only weak spot is your reliance on Tech abilities, that means a good Tankasin will shut down your rotation for 5 seconds, time to stun and walk away.

 

Heat management is awesome because the heat removal proc happens FIRST then the six second counter starts. I can literally spam Flame Spin 5 times in a row, and be able to launch a Flamethrower or other ability with less than 25 heat cost.

 

Pyro has to have those rail shots to cool off, and you have to be lucky to get them or you've just heated yourself up past 75% in the first rotation.

 

The other overridingly awesome thing about Adv Proto is Hydraulic Overrides and the in-combat speed boost. It's like being in fast forward compared to everyone else, also, you don't get knocked down, or snared, or grappled, it makes for the perfect forward passer in Huttball.

 

Get the ball off the rack, pop HO, and your bubble and only take 55% damage from everyones attacks (the ability that reduces damage by 20% while stunned stacks with ES) until you can pass the ball to the waiting sorc or assassin.

 

 

To the Naysayers about the flamethrower usage I have only this to say, I use it, I get kills with it even now, once it's uninterruptable, it will be much more deadly. On a crit, with full stacks of Prototype Flamethrower, mine hits all targets equally for around 2.4k, excellent for keeping people from disarming the bomb in voidstar.

 

In closing, all I have to say is, I'm using it, getting kills, supporting my team and we win matches. My damage numbers aren't what they were with pyro, which has a bit more synergy with Rapid Shots, Unload etc on burning targets, but I don't ever have to use Rapid Shots because heat management is so much easier. Anyways, that's my take, disagree if you like, but if you haven't tried it, maybe you should just to use something with a few more tools.

 

While it was a nice attempt, with all due respect, it's all wishful thinking. It's not that every single dps PT just jumped on the Pyro bandwagon. It's not like you are the first to try the cute bells and whistles of the AP tree. Many many PTs have tried it, tried it extensively.

Believe it or not, the AP tree is the main reason why initially many rolled a PT. Almost everyone I know, myself included, rolled a PT to be an Advanced Prototype.

AP is suppose to be our PvP tree, it has major design flaws. You dont build a PvP tree around a stationary/directional aoe ability. You dont build a PvP tree without decent bursts in comparison to other ACs. You dont give a PvP build a steady venting system and a weak melee dot.

Sure 1.2 is giving AP a kiss on the cheek, but that's all it is.

[Orsian]

While it was a nice attempt, with all due respect, it's all wishful thinking. It's not that every single dps PT just jumped on the Pyro bandwagon. It's not like you are the first to try the cute bells and whistles of the AP tree. Many many PTs have tried it, tried it extensively.

Believe it or not, the AP tree is the main reason why initially many rolled a PT. Almost everyone I know, myself included, rolled a PT to be an Advanced Prototype.

AP is suppose to be our PvP tree, it has major design flaws. You dont build a PvP tree around a stationary/directional aoe ability. You dont build a PvP tree without decent bursts in comparison to other ACs. You dont give a PvP build a steady venting system and a weak melee dot.

Sure 1.2 is giving AP a kiss on the cheek, but that's all it is.

 

I'm not sure what was wishful thinking here, this is the spec I roll with and the damage I do and have done as pyro and ap. It's base damage from FB is higher than the base FB damage you'll get in pyro and it's heat management is a passive skill. It's not that I'm saying 'Everyone go out and roll AP right NOW!!!1'

 

I'm just saying that it works, and it'll work better in 1.2, snare on proto FT will keep me from having to drop a grenade to hold em still for the effect or use carbonize. Immolate proccing proto FT stacks will be nice and the slow from RB will be great too.

 

I'll admit, I do more damage with pyro, but I don't view it as effective because it's not dependable. Also, a good bit of that damage comes from dots, which are curable and easily healed through. Anyways, that's my opinion, from testing it in war zones and 1v1's and testing pyro as well.

 

Have fun.

[Hizoka]

Flamethrower will never, ever work in rateds against a good team

 

only an ignorant person speaks like that, sorry but things like master strike hit ALL THE TIME. Never underestimate how bad players are. All you have to be is smart in how you use it and it will work great, however if you are not smart enough to know how and when to use it i can understand why you think like you do.

[Hizoka]

While it was a nice attempt, with all due respect, it's all wishful thinking. It's not that every single dps PT just jumped on the Pyro bandwagon. It's not like you are the first to try the cute bells and whistles of the AP tree. Many many PTs have tried it, tried it extensively.

Believe it or not, the AP tree is the main reason why initially many rolled a PT. Almost everyone I know, myself included, rolled a PT to be an Advanced Prototype.

AP is suppose to be our PvP tree, it has major design flaws. You dont build a PvP tree around a stationary/directional aoe ability. You dont build a PvP tree without decent bursts in comparison to other ACs. You dont give a PvP build a steady venting system and a weak melee dot.

Sure 1.2 is giving AP a kiss on the cheek, but that's all it is.

 

where do you get "its supposed to be the PvP tree" crap from. The shared trees are built as PvP trees. AP is a sustained DPS tree which works great in PvE, and if you were smart you would see that EVERY tree has some PvP abilities in them not just some of them. Even watchmen that highest damage spec in game that is built around long sustained fighting(see raid bosses) has PvP talents in the tree.

 

 

The issue is AP is sustained damage it not proc based burst like Pyro. Most people do not know how to play it right so they write it off you like you seem to believe the internet forum baddies and think because they say its bad it makes it bad. EVERY SINGLE spec in this game can desimate a warzone if its played by a good player, if you think a spec it bad its simply because you lack the ability to play it well.

 

 

There are AP BHs out there just like Tactics Troopers are out there, the spec works, you just got to be better then the mouthbreather that claims pyro is "better" to make it work well.

[Theology]

Dream big bro. AP is and will continue to be complete garbage in any high rank PVP scene.

[exphryl]

you just got to be better then the mouthbreather that claims pyro is "better" to make it work well.

 

Pyro is better though. Special Snowflakes are meaningless right now.

[dijskykiller]

where do you get "its supposed to be the PvP tree" crap from. The shared trees are built as PvP trees. AP is a sustained DPS tree which works great in PvE, and if you were smart you would see that EVERY tree has some PvP abilities in them not just some of them. Even watchmen that highest damage spec in game that is built around long sustained fighting(see raid bosses) has PvP talents in the tree.

 

 

The issue is AP is sustained damage it not proc based burst like Pyro. Most people do not know how to play it right so they write it off you like you seem to believe the internet forum baddies and think because they say its bad it makes it bad. EVERY SINGLE spec in this game can desimate a warzone if its played by a good player, if you think a spec it bad its simply because you lack the ability to play it well.

 

 

There are AP BHs out there just like Tactics Troopers are out there, the spec works, you just got to be better then the mouthbreather that claims pyro is "better" to make it work well.

 

Yes, this is true. They both produce the same damage most of the time. The only reason pyro can extend more of its DPS is because of the few keybinds that you have to use to reach its max damage potential making it a lot easier. Fewer buttons (pyro) vs more buttons (AP) yield the same DPS output. AP needs more skill IMO, without fast fingers and proper rotation you will fall back. It's just a the ease of gameplay.

Edited March 23, 2012 by dijskykiller

[theangryllama]

While it was a nice attempt, with all due respect, it's all wishful thinking. It's not that every single dps PT just jumped on the Pyro bandwagon. It's not like you are the first to try the cute bells and whistles of the AP tree. Many many PTs have tried it, tried it extensively.

Believe it or not, the AP tree is the main reason why initially many rolled a PT. Almost everyone I know, myself included, rolled a PT to be an Advanced Prototype.

AP is suppose to be our PvP tree, it has major design flaws. You dont build a PvP tree around a stationary/directional aoe ability. You dont build a PvP tree without decent bursts in comparison to other ACs. You dont give a PvP build a steady venting system and a weak melee dot.

Sure 1.2 is giving AP a kiss on the cheek, but that's all it is.

 

This patch is actually a much larger boon to AP than you give it credit for. AP suffered from 2 major weaknesses when compared to pyro. Lack of burst and lack of a snare.

The burst is fixed by making flamethrower with prototype flamethrower actually usable. From other accounts I've heard that FT now ticks 4x for the (for still the same total damage) with a tick hitting at the start of the channel.

This combined with the 70% snare means only tankasins are getting out of that channel. Its uninterruptable and with HO active your not getting knocked back.

Flamethrower with 5 stacks hits HARD... as hard as the TD -> railshot combo of pyro and now outside of being stunned (which would also stop pyro burst) its not getting stopped.

 

Then of course we throw in the minor buff of immolate granting a stack which means you can do that sooner.

 

Then we throw in the snare on RB... that + 15% move speed means you can actually stay in melee range easily!

 

Then of course we throw in the minor buff to charged gauntlets. This now gives us, given a 15s cooldown, a 99.6% crit chance on rail shot (given 2x rocket punchs, 1x retractable blade + 5 ticks) as opposed to a 91% crit chance before in the same duration. It also (and this is the more important one imo is that it gives rail shot a 12.5% higher chance to be a crit in the opening RB > Immo > RP > Rail shot burst (as you will now have 1 tick in there and thus 1 additional chance).

[Agooz]

where do you get "its supposed to be the PvP tree" crap from. The shared trees are built as PvP trees. AP is a sustained DPS tree which works great in PvE, and if you were smart you would see that EVERY tree has some PvP abilities in them not just some of them. Even watchmen that highest damage spec in game that is built around long sustained fighting(see raid bosses) has PvP talents in the tree.

 

Ok genius, maybe you should look up both trees and come back here to edit your crap. 8 Talents in the AP and for PvP, vs 4 Talens in Pyro. Twice as many talents and I am wrong to say that it is supposed to be out PvP tree?? Also, only a raging idiot would think that I meant you would dump all your 41 points in the tree. Thank you for the insight that some people distribute points across multiple trees. Oh and by the way, ALL the changes in 1.2 are ALSO to beef up AP for PvP. Anyone who plays a deep AP, it is exclusively for its PvP utility.

 

The fact that you also say AP has the sustained dps, also shows how clueless you are. Is it "sustainable" dps? of course it is. Hec spamming rapid shots an entire fight is also "sustained" dps. Is it better or even comparable to Pyro "sustained" dps? Nope.

 

 

The issue is AP is sustained damage it not proc based burst like Pyro. Most people do not know how to play it right so they write it off you like you seem to believe the internet forum baddies and think because they say its bad it makes it bad. EVERY SINGLE spec in this game can desimate a warzone if its played by a good player, if you think a spec it bad its simply because you lack the ability to play it well.

 

You know what they say about ASSumptions? You ASSuming that Pyros have not played AP and thus dont understand how it works is complete BS. Pretty much everyone who rolled a PT in Beta and early on, jumped on the AP tree. Many players have extensively tried to make the tree work, but it has major issues.

 

 

There are AP BHs out there just like Tactics Troopers are out there, the spec works, you just got to be better then the mouthbreather that claims pyro is "better" to make it work well.

 

Has anyone told you that the vast majority of people if not all, completely disregard the L2Play attitude? Because it is never an argument. All it shows is that you are arrogant and just babbling thinking you actually contributed something to a discussion.

 

If AP is better, I guess Bio is nerfing the wrong tree. Why dont you take your BS to them and have them reverse the changes then. Maybe they will listen to your logic and reverse the Buff they are giving APs, and the major Nerf of the Pyro. LOL

[Agooz]

This patch is actually a much larger boon to AP than you give it credit for. AP suffered from 2 major weaknesses when compared to pyro. Lack of burst and lack of a snare.

The burst is fixed by making flamethrower with prototype flamethrower actually usable. From other accounts I've heard that FT now ticks 4x for the (for still the same total damage) with a tick hitting at the start of the channel.

This combined with the 70% snare means only tankasins are getting out of that channel. Its uninterruptable and with HO active your not getting knocked back.

Flamethrower with 5 stacks hits HARD... as hard as the TD -> railshot combo of pyro and now outside of being stunned (which would also stop pyro burst) its not getting stopped.

 

Then of course we throw in the minor buff of immolate granting a stack which means you can do that sooner.

 

Then we throw in the snare on RB... that + 15% move speed means you can actually stay in melee range easily!

 

Then of course we throw in the minor buff to charged gauntlets. This now gives us, given a 15s cooldown, a 99.6% crit chance on rail shot (given 2x rocket punchs, 1x retractable blade + 5 ticks) as opposed to a 91% crit chance before in the same duration. It also (and this is the more important one imo is that it gives rail shot a 12.5% higher chance to be a crit in the opening RB > Immo > RP > Rail shot burst (as you will now have 1 tick in there and thus 1 additional chance).

 

My friend, I never said the AP changes arent warranted. Hec god knows the tree badly needs it. In fact it needs alot more than what 1.2 is bringing.

 

Pyros are complaining about the 6-9sec prolonged procs, which I believe is very warranted. So if 6-9sec are a huge deal in PvP, which anyone who PvPs alot knows, how can you be that excited about the amount of time it takes to stack 5x for FT, and using HO ( a 30sec! ability) to be immune from knockbacks. So in general, that's 7.5sec at a minimum to have a fully charged FT, and a 30sec cooldown to use it without worrying about knockbacks?

 

For the record, I would love to play an AP. It's the reason why I rolled a PT in the first place. Yes the changes are making it more "usable" but there is still much to do for it to be at least comparable to other AC dps tree (not just current Pyro tree).