Everyone does not enjoy raiding

[SentinelDranoel]

"One interesting factoid about the current state of Operations in the game is that only an astonishing 38% of level 50 players have played an Operation. One of the reasons for this relatively low number is that there are bugs, particularly in Eternity Vault, which have become disproportionately frustrating to players than other areas of the game due to the time invested and level of reward."

 

I got that info after the guild summit.

 

Raiding is not what everyone looks foward to in this game. In fact, would'nt a number like 38% be considered a minority.

 

That is right people, I PLAY SWTOR, AND I DO NOT LIKE RAIDING. WE ARE THE 62%.

[Melacon]

"One interesting factoid about the current state of Operations in the game is that only an astonishing 38% of level 50 players have played an Operation. One of the reasons for this relatively low number is that there are bugs, particularly in Eternity Vault, which have become disproportionately frustrating to players than other areas of the game due to the time invested and level of reward."

 

I got that info after the guild summit.

 

Raiding is not what everyone looks foward to in this game. In fact, would'nt a number like 38% be considered a minority.

 

That is right people, I PLAY SWTOR, AND I DO NOT LIKE RAIDING. WE ARE THE 62%.

 

And you are the ones left over when the game fails and complaining the devs don't produce any more content for you to afk through.

[ferroz]

"One interesting factoid about the current state of Operations in the game is that only an astonishing 38% of level 50 players have played an Operation. One of the reasons for this relatively low number is that there are bugs, particularly in Eternity Vault, which have become disproportionately frustrating to players than other areas of the game due to the time invested and level of reward."

 

I got that info after the guild summit.

 

Raiding is not what everyone looks foward to in this game. In fact, would'nt a number like 38% be considered a minority.

 

That is right people, I PLAY SWTOR, AND I DO NOT LIKE RAIDING. WE ARE THE 62%.

seriously? raiding is 8 person content. DAoC had 8 man groups. EQ had 6 man groups. If you don't like raiding that's fine, but trying to call what this game has "raiding" is more than a little absurd.

[Ludstar]

There are plenty of Daily and pvp rewards if you don't want to raid...

[DieAlteHexe]

And you are the ones left over when the game fails and complaining the devs don't produce any more content for you to afk through.

 

How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

To begin with IF the numbers are correct, that means over 60% of the players (that pay) would remain, barring anything else that would cause /ragequit. That's a fair number.

 

Secondly, if they are the "leftovers" (a funny term to describe a majority, again assuming correct percentages in OP) they are still a rather large number for whom content would be continually developed.

 

IOW, I think you just stomped your foot and found you don't have a leg to...stomp with.

 

FWIW, I'm not a fan of raiding either. Well, that's not true. I'm not a fan of what raiding does to an unfortunate number of people. It makes them...forget that it's a game and meant to be fun.

Edited March 19, 2012 by DieAlteHexe

[BenjaminminU]

You know i think we need some more puzzle style content, solving a sequence of clues in order to find lost treasure or something. Something that actively seeks to prevent players from spacebaring through all the conversations. For example a character could mention a clue in a conversation that you would have to remember in order to advance later on in the quest. This is something i'd enjoy doing.

[Felioats]

38% is actually very high for this statistic, probably owing to the fact that they allow raids of 8 or 16.

 

I prefer single-group content myself, and will probably always be in the "62%."

 

I think we all remember the WoW statistic of fewer than 1% of players seeing the inside of one of their raid dungeons. That's what it took for them to finally make some more single-group content.

 

I don't know why developers continue to devote most of their resources to a largely rejected type of gameplay. Maybe they just emotionally like to. Maybe raiders are the loudest and most demanding when it comes to new content. Maybe they go through it the quickest, and developers feel obligated to continue to make more and cater to them. Maybe they respect them more as the "elite," and feel other players are less deserving of new content.

[Frostvein]

"One interesting factoid about the current state of Operations in the game is that only an astonishing 38% of level 50 players have played an Operation. One of the reasons for this relatively low number is that there are bugs, particularly in Eternity Vault, which have become disproportionately frustrating to players than other areas of the game due to the time invested and level of reward."

 

I got that info after the guild summit.

 

Raiding is not what everyone looks foward to in this game. In fact, would'nt a number like 38% be considered a minority.

 

That is right people, I PLAY SWTOR, AND I DO NOT LIKE RAIDING. WE ARE THE 62%.

 

Could it be that people at 50 are having trouble finding people to raid with due to terribly low server population?

[Varghjerta]

There are plenty of Daily and pvp rewards if you don't want to raid...

 

Problem with both of those is that they are not seperated from the raids.

 

These days people wants to be rewarded and be able to do everything the game have to offer from just doing one thing.

 

Which in turn leads to that progression based content have been removed and made room for time == rewards.

And the pinnacle of PvE is always raids but when people dont want progression based content it quickly transforms itself into all roads leads to rome

[Akash]

The real statistic to look for is what percentage of individual accounts with a level 50 character have been on a raid.

 

I've got 3 level 50 characters now, I've only raided with one of them.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Akash

[thominoh]

I might as well pipe up again..

 

I grew up in EQ1 before Kunark, and loved the raiding at that time.. Bring as many as you want to the fight (max was 72 I believe).. It was very social, Everyone in our guild that wanted to join in , did.. NO ONE was told to stay home.. This is what I believe is missing.. This e-sport raiding we have now turns people off.. I know it did me and friends.. If Bioware would allow for social raiding , I might hop back in it..

 

Think of it this way.. IF you allow for open social raiding, imagine how much easier it would be for the classes... Balance is TOSSED out the window.. Who cares if YOUR spec/class doesn't do the optimal dps for 8 man raiding, just pick up a 9th person, problem solved.. When I raided in EQ, NO ONE ever gave me crap about my druid's DPS numbers.. oh wait.. I did other jobs that could not be measured by a combat log...

 

IF I was Emperor of Star Wars I would revamp the entire raiding philosophy..

[Akash]

I might as well pipe up again..

 

I grew up in EQ1 before Kunark, and loved the raiding at that time.. Bring as many as you want to the fight (max was 72 I believe).. It was very social, Everyone in our guild that wanted to join in , did.. NO ONE was told to stay home.. This is what I believe is missing.. This e-sport raiding we have now turns people off.. I know it did me and friends.. If Bioware would allow for social raiding , I might hop back in it..

 

Think of it this way.. IF you allow for open social raiding, imagine how much easier it would be for the classes... Balance is TOSSED out the window.. Who cares if YOUR spec/class doesn't do the optimal dps for 8 man raiding, just pick up a 9th person, problem solved.. When I raided in EQ, NO ONE ever gave me crap about my druid's DPS numbers.. oh wait.. I did other jobs that could not be measured by a combat log...

 

IF I was Emperor of Star Wars I would revamp the entire raiding philosophy..

 

I think one of the reasons Rift has grown so much stronger is that there are PUG raids going on constantly. But that's community driven over there. Not seeing the same thing here, even on the higher pop server I'm currently playing on.

[DieAlteHexe]

I might as well pipe up again..

 

I grew up in EQ1 before Kunark, and loved the raiding at that time.. Bring as many as you want to the fight (max was 72 I believe).. It was very social, Everyone in our guild that wanted to join in , did.. NO ONE was told to stay home.. This is what I believe is missing.. This e-sport raiding we have now turns people off.. I know it did me and friends.. If Bioware would allow for social raiding , I might hop back in it..

 

Think of it this way.. IF you allow for open social raiding, imagine how much easier it would be for the classes... Balance is TOSSED out the window.. Who cares if YOUR spec/class doesn't do the optimal dps for 8 man raiding, just pick up a 9th person, problem solved.. When I raided in EQ, NO ONE ever gave me crap about my druid's DPS numbers.. oh wait.. I did other jobs that could not be measured by a combat log...

 

IF I was Emperor of Star Wars I would revamp the entire raiding philosophy..

 

 

And that was fun. If this were the way it was, I'd change my tune considerably. Now it's just not worth the aggravation.

[Cybeldar]

38% is actually very high for this statistic, probably owing to the fact that they allow raids of 8 or 16.

 

I prefer single-group content myself, and will probably always be in the "62%."

 

I think we all remember the WoW statistic of fewer than 1% of players seeing the inside of one of their raid dungeons. That's what it took for them to finally make some more single-group content.

 

I don't know why developers continue to devote most of their resources to a largely rejected type of gameplay. Maybe they just emotionally like to. Maybe raiders are the loudest and most demanding when it comes to new content. Maybe they go through it the quickest, and developers feel obligated to continue to make more and cater to them. Maybe they respect them more as the "elite," and feel other players are less deserving of new content.

 

I think a lot of Devs. raid now or raided a lot as they went through high school and college. They are just as prone to believing everyone plays like i play, just as the pvpers, raiders, soloers do.

 

Whether people want to believe it or not, the days of huge raids taking months of progression to get the best gear are dying. There are a large number of people who don't have the time, patience, or give a darn to do that anymore.

[Orizuru]

I think one of the reasons Rift has grown so much stronger is that there are PUG raids going on constantly. But that's community driven over there. Not seeing the same thing here, even on the higher pop server I'm currently playing on.

 

I'm actually surprised there isn't more widespread pugging of Operations. The difficulty level of normal OPs is perfect for PUGs in my opinion. It's challenging enough to require cooperation and coordination, and forgiving enough to allow minor mistakes without causing the raid to wipe.

 

When I ran EV with my guild for the first time I was astounded by how much progress we made. The only reason we didn't clear the entire OP was because we ran out of time on the last boss and had to call it a night before we got more than 2 attempts on him. We even had a couple of guildies who had zero experience with raiding or MMO end-game content.

 

I fully expect PUGs to be able to do full clears of the current tier of raiding content without over-gearing the content like you would to be successful when PUGing raids in other MMOs.

[NoxiousAlby]

And you are the ones left over when the game fails and complaining the devs don't produce any more content for you to afk through.

 

Actually were the ones who subsidise raiders content so you can strut around in your leet gear giving you a reason to feel good about yourself.

 

We stop playing and you will have no content.

[Melacon]

How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

To begin with IF the numbers are correct, that means over 60% of the players (that pay) would remain, barring anything else that would cause /ragequit. That's a fair number.

 

Secondly, if they are the "leftovers" (a funny term to describe a majority, again assuming correct percentages in OP) they are still a rather large number for whom content would be continually developed.

 

IOW, I think you just stomped your foot and found you don't have a leg to...stomp with.

 

FWIW, I'm not a fan of raiding either. Well, that's not true. I'm not a fan of what raiding does to an unfortunate number of people. It makes them...forget that it's a game and meant to be fun.

 

huh?

 

You know what, your right. Let's lose 40% of the roughly 1000 people on my server. My foot will remain in my mouth until someone makes a successful mmo that doesn't have raiding in it, and if it's out there all ready, feel free to enlighten me.

 

Plus, a lot of raiders probably have more than one level 50 character, therefore making that precentage lower than what it should be. So yes, take away raids and your left with a not so good game with not so many people playing it.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Melacon

[thominoh]

I'm actually surprised there isn't more widespread pugging of Operations. The difficulty level of normal OPs is perfect for PUGs in my opinion. It's challenging enough to require cooperation and coordination, and forgiving enough to allow minor mistakes without causing the raid to wipe.

 

When I ran EV with my guild for the first time I was astounded by how much progress we made. The only reason we didn't clear the entire OP was because we ran out of time on the last boss and had to call it a night before we got more than 2 attempts on him. We even had a couple of guildies who had zero experience with raiding or MMO end-game content.

 

I fully expect PUGs to be able to do full clears of the current tier of raiding content without over-gearing the content like you would to be successful when PUGing raids in other MMOs.

 

That all sounds great for a scheduled run.. but lets face it.. GENERALLY speaking pugs suck.. They sucked in WoW, they sucked in Rift and they suck here too..... NOT because of the people, but do to the restrictive nature they are.. To get strangers to hang around and WAIT for the tank slots, healing slots and dps slots to fill is just a pain the backside..

 

There are other alternatives to the current set.. I know devs from all games know them, just curious why they refuse to address them or talk about it..

Edited March 19, 2012 by thominoh

[Melacon]

Actually were the ones who subsidise raiders content so you can strut around in your leet gear giving you a reason to feel good about yourself.

 

We stop playing and you will have no content.

 

But you won't stop playing, that's the kicker. Raiders and pvp'ers will quit if those to avenues aren't that great, thus, no hype is driven towards the game at all. Now people will not join the game because there is nothing to look forward to.

 

And I'm not referring to casuals, hell, I only raid 2 nights a week but when I do, I take it seriously. A game will survive with griping people who don't like endgame, but it won't survive with no endgame. It's been proven over and over again.

[TheSwamper]

Problem with both of those is that they are not seperated from the raids.

 

These days people wants to be rewarded and be able to do everything the game have to offer from just doing one thing.

 

Which in turn leads to that progression based content have been removed and made room for time == rewards.

And the pinnacle of PvE is always raids but when people dont want progression based content it quickly transforms itself into all roads leads to rome

 

This. Keep raids as the best/fastest/most efficient way to make endgame character progress (read: best gear).

 

Do not have them be the only way there. Offer an alternative method for those who don't enjoy raiding.

[Altimate]

I always see this negative attitude towards raiding and raiders and I wonder where it stems from. I raid with my friends. They don't treat me poorly or they wouldn't be my friends, and I wouldn't do anything with them, let alone raid. I think the problem isn't with raiding or raiders, it is with one's own ability to chose their friends wisely.

[Jederix]

Could it be that people at 50 are having trouble finding people to raid with due to terribly low server population?

 

Similar statistics from other games (including WoW) would indicate otherwise.

[thominoh]

This. Keep raids as the best/fastest/most efficient way to make endgame character progress (read: best gear).

 

Do not have them be the only way there. Offer an alternative method for those who don't enjoy raiding.

 

But.. that's the trick tho.. if devs offered an alternative path in end game that ISN'T tier gear grind, most would take it, and POOF, there goes most of your raiders.. Raiding in it's current form is just NOT fun anymore.. End game NEEDS revamped big time..

[DieAlteHexe]

huh?

 

You know what, your right. Let's lose 40% of the roughly 1000 people on my server. My foot will remain in my mouth until someone makes a successful mmo that doesn't have raiding in it, and if it's out there all ready, feel free to enlighten me.

 

Plus, a lot of raiders probably have more than one level 50 character, therefore making that precentage lower than what it should be. So yes, take away raids and your left with a not so good game with not so many people playing it.

 

No arguing with that way of "thinking". It's so incredibly sideways.

 

See my previous and the others who are trying to tell you that you're not understanding how this works (who subsidizes what).

[GalacticKegger]

But.. that's the trick tho.. if devs offered an alternative path in end game that ISN'T tier gear grind, most would take it, and POOF, there goes most of your raiders.. Raiding in it's current form is just NOT fun anymore.. End game NEEDS revamped big time..

I agree and wish PvP and Ops were just as much or as little a part of end game as PvP and FPs are when leveling. Maintaining true high adventure PvE at end game is the holy grail of MMORPGs imho. All of my characters run every heroic and FP on their way up for gear, learning how its advanced class plays with other classes ... and because each planet's individual "end game" story seems to tie into class storylines.

 

What would be astounding to see is the melding of PvE Ops and PvP WZs, where PvP players queue up to populate the instance mobs that fight side by side with Ops bosses. Maybe call it a PvE Ops Warzone or something where expertise autoconverts to PvE heroic mob hit and damage bonuses.

Edited March 19, 2012 by GalacticKegger