Leave the healers alone, they need encouragement.

[Azkit]

I am talking about complexity of healing game play making healing more challenging. Lowering healing output by playing naked does not make healing more challenging as u implied.

 

/sigh

 

Complex - so complicated or intricate as to be hard to understand or deal with.

 

Challenge - difficulty in a job or undertaking that is stimulating to one engaged in it.

 

 

I can choose to ride a donkey or a horse. It will be more challenging to win a race on the donkey, even though the mechanics of riding both animals is the same.

 

Lifting weights is not at all complex, but if I increase the weight, the challenge increases, even though the complexity did not.

 

Yes, complexity increases challenge. Grats, you figured that out. But that is not what this thread is talking about. People are QQing that 1.2 will increase healer DIFFICULTY, they are not QQing that 1.2 will increase healer COMPLEXITY. If you want to talk about the complexity of healer mechanics, there's a button called "Create New Thread" which you can press to begin a discussion on it.

 

If you don't understand that there is more to challenge than just complexity, then there's no reason for me to respond to you again.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Azkit

[Nnyv]

This.

 

I am almost always target number one in a WZ and usually take more damages than anyone else.

 

So am I, and usually I'm targeted by 3-6 enemy players. When I do survive, it's because my teammates intervened and I heal myself after because now my teammates are taking damage and need to be healed. Most times, I'm stun-locked so bad because there's more than one player stunning me and I can't get a single heal off.

[ShadowAxx]

If you don't understand that there is more to challenge than just complexity, then there's no reason for me to respond to you again.

 

Why not just do us all a favor and be silent.

 

You are not helping. Anyone who knows the merc/commando mechanics knows what these changes mean, and they are not fair. They do not benefit any other player or the community.

 

Your constant babbling is getting tiresome, so just be silent and let the rest of us attempt to work through this crap, without the benefit of having to hear more crap from you.

 

Thx

Edited March 20, 2012 by ShadowAxx

[Menisong]

/sigh

 

Complex - so complicated or intricate as to be hard to understand or deal with.

 

Challenge - difficulty in a job or undertaking that is stimulating to one engaged in it.

 

 

I can choose to ride a donkey or a horse. It will be more challenging to win a race on the donkey, even though the mechanics of riding both animals is the same.

 

Lifting weights is not at all complex, but if I increase the weight, the challenge increases, even though the complexity did not.

 

Yes, complexity increases challenge. Grats, you figured that out. But that is not what this thread is talking about. People are QQing that 1.2 will increase healer DIFFICULTY, they are not QQing that 1.2 will increase healer COMPLEXITY. If you want to talk about the complexity of healer mechanics, there's a button called "Create New Thread" which you can press to begin a discussion on it.

 

If you don't understand that there is more to challenge than just complexity, then there's no reason for me to respond to you again.

 

I like how you cherry picked definition #3 for complex. I prefer #1 and #2 with regards to healing. Making choosing the abilites and how you put them together over the simplistic method we have now.

[Xaearth]

Yes, complexity increases challenge. Grats, you figured that out. But that is not what this thread is talking about. People are QQing that 1.2 will increase healer DIFFICULTY, they are not QQing that 1.2 will increase healer COMPLEXITY. If you want to talk about the complexity of healer mechanics, there's a button called "Create New Thread" which you can press to begin a discussion on it.

 

If you don't understand that there is more to challenge than just complexity, then there's no reason for me to respond to you again.

 

And if you don't understand that difficulty is not challenge, then there's no reason to respond to you either.

 

When the only choices a healer has are blow their resources or let someone die, that is not challenging the healer in any way but his/her sanity. There is no healer coordination, there is no healer strategy, there is nothing but a strong desire to remove certain people from the gene pool.

 

A healer either heals the way the limited kit tells you to, or a healer doesn't.

The more limited the kit, the less that survival becomes a function of the healer and more of the healer's target.

 

Nerfing healers doesn't make their job challenging.

Nerfing aspects of a healer to encourage a different playstyle, perhaps, but not across the board throughput/resource nerfs.

[Dast]

Thank you Dvander, your post is spot on.

And to those who says its not thankless, you are wrong.

Dps thinks ops is so easy, they should try and heal a hm ops and tell me the healing was easy.

It is not.

[Azkit]

When the only choices a healer has are blow their resources or let someone die, that is not challenging the healer in any way but his/her sanity. There is no healer coordination, there is no healer strategy, there is nothing but a strong desire to remove certain people from the gene pool.

 

Sorry, but having to actually pay attention to your resources should be apart of the challenge. If you think things will become unhealable in the new content, just work on getting better. Healing is too trivial right now, the changes will be better for the game.

[napeh]

I agree with you that it is easy to heal, but not easy enough on NMM with a BH to make these changes.

 

I will have to play it before I make any final statements, but there seems to be no reason to bring a BH now.

 

Atleast before I could easily keep tanks up and spot heal players when they needed it.

 

Oh, and making it harder on healers WILL NOT make dpsers pay more attention to avoiding damage. It just simply wont. Not to mention lots of the raid damage is unavoidable.

 

All they need to do is introduce the new ops with more mechanics, not nerf healing to make it harder.

 

I'm pretty sure the changes were made with PVP in mind, since most players who QQ only pvp.

[Xaearth]

Sorry, but having to actually pay attention to your resources should be apart of the challenge. If you think things will become unhealable in the new content, just work on getting better. Healing is too trivial right now, the changes will be better for the game.

 

Oh wait, you're one of those trolls that thought Op healing was fine because it was "challenging" aren't you?

 

Healers don't have a problem paying attention to their resources.

The rest of the group does.

[RuQu]

Sorry, but having to actually pay attention to your resources should be apart of the challenge. If you think things will become unhealable in the new content, just work on getting better. Healing is too trivial right now, the changes will be better for the game.

 

Part of the challenge, not the whole challenge.

 

You know what's easy? Making everything cost 30% more.

 

You know what's hard? Creating interesting choices for players.

 

I guess the Devs weren't in the mood for a Challenge of creating interesting gameplay. Or perhaps they simply listened to people like you who can't tell the difference between hard and interesting.

[XtremJedi]

Challenge should be about over-coming the odds through skill and clever usage of your tool-set.

 

If your tool-set becomes more complex, then usually that will mean that there are more choices to be made, which leaves more contribution for skill - as long as that complexity is needed. Players will feel that their skill in healing is being challenged and should feel a sense of accomplishment at achieving it.

 

If your tool-set becomes less complex, then usually that will mean that there are fewer choices available, which reduces the skill contribution. Players will feel that their skill is not being as challenged.

 

You can play a really simple healer, with a single big, fast heal that is chain-casted. There is no challenge involved here. If the heal is big enough then you win easily. If the heal is nerfed so that it is not big enough, then you lose. It's easy or it's hard... but either way, there's no challenge.

 

Something being hard does not make it challenging.

 

But also... if you have a complex tool-set, but you can still heal everything necessary by chain-casting one big heal.... then that's not challenging either. My skill, choices and ability have still not affected the outcome.

 

This is the difficulty with designing games like these. You need to make a tool-set that requires skill to work it - and also pitch the content at a level that makes it necessary for you to use that tool-set.

 

The general nerfing of healing proposed in 1.2 will indeed make things harder... but I can't see it making it more challenging.

 

Take a look at the Sorc/Sage changes. The idea, I think, was that force management should become more challenging. It should have increased decision making required, by forcing you to think more about which abilities to use.

 

But the noises from testing seem to be, that because all of the heals have been slowed down so much and the big heal cost has been so reduced (on proc) - there's actually not that much of a hit on force management, when single target healing. End result seems to be that healing ouput has just dropped considerably.

 

In areas where Sorcs/Sages already did struggle with force management, things are going to become even harder... because the heals are so much slower, there's less ability to heal across several targets. And because, we will use more GCDs for regaining less force... we will have less time for using other (now slower) abilities.

 

End result: Actually less complexity in tool-set. Fewer decisions to be made. Less chance for skill to be the deciding factor... and so less challenging. Harder yes... but less challenging.

 

I think that BW wanted to make it harder to complete some of the content - which is a good thing. It seemed that some things were simply too easy and as a result our skill wasn't really a deciding factor.

 

But they've made it harder to complete the content by reducing power and have ended up simplifying things (probably inadvertently). I think that skill will still not be a deciding factor. There will probably be more wipes - but they're likely to be wipes caused by lacking healing throughput or just plain running out of force.

 

We'll see how it goes. I've cancelled my sub which runs out in 3 months. Not just because of these changes, but because these changes come on top of my dissatisfaction with low pop servers, basic functionality bugs and omissions around since beta, repetitious missions, useless crafting market, sense that I'm paying a sub for a single player RPG with a bit of co-op stuff occasionally etc etc... and the game-play is really nothing special - it's pretty standard MMO fare with little in the way of innovation.

 

I don't think that I would have chosen this time to introduce a bunch of nerfs to the most popular classes. And I don't have the feeling that BW approached the business of balance and class design in a way that is going to make things markedly better in future.... so why would I want to stick around?

 

X

Edited March 20, 2012 by XtremJedi

[RuQu]

*snip*

 

X

 

Very well put.

[Azkit]

Oh wait, you're one of those trolls that thought Op healing was fine because it was "challenging" aren't you?

 

Healers don't have a problem paying attention to their resources.

The rest of the group does.

 

No, I did not believe Op healing was fine. Check out my signature. I started out as an Operative, but re-rolled Merc because they were UP. If all healers are balanced with each other, then it's fine. If they are balanced in such a way that healers are challenged, even better.

 

I do agree that healers could use better tools (esp cooldowns), but that is not related to this thread, which is talking about the 1.2 healer nerfs.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Azkit

[RuQu]

No, I did not believe Op healing was fine. Check out my signature. I started out as an Operative, but re-rolled Merc because they were UP. If all healers are balanced with each other, then it's fine. If they are balanced in such a way that healers are challenged, even better.

 

I do agree that healers could use better tools (esp cooldowns), but that is not related to this thread, which is talking about the 1.2 healer nerfs.

 

I consider the two linked, as the nerfs do nothing to address our request for more interesting mechanics, more tools, etc. This was a chance for them to show their intentions for the future, and the answer was "less creativity, less diversity, more simplicity" and an apparently willful equation of hard=interesting (when this is patently false), just as they have previously ignored the question of "competitive" in favor of discussing "viable".

[bobudo]

I love you.

 

Seriously, from the bottom of my heart.

[Aaoogaa]

Unsubbed...account ends tonight. I will watch the patch notes with great interest to see what happens. GL all that stay but I am not having my class gutted for the second MMO in a row and sticking it out again until they realize they made mistakes. My guildies are a little sad since I am the healer that is on the most for runs/WZs. My post history shows how much I have enjoyed this game from beta on and supported this class. This is a sad day for me. Edited March 21, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[RuQu]

Unsubbed...account ends tonight. I will watch the patch notes with great interest to see what happens. GL all that stay but I am not having my class gutted for the second MMO in a row and sticking it out again until they realize they made mistakes. My guildies are a little sad since I am the healer that is on the most for runs/WZs. My post history shows how much I have enjoyed this game from beta on and supported this class. This is a sad day for me.

 

Testing is happening. Since we still haven't seen any sign of these under-the-hood changes, hopefully the test results will convince them they overstepped and they will back off enough for you to return.

 

Have fun out there.

[Boyana]

 

Healing by itself, is a thankless job.

 

Talking about thankless job, yesterday I saw a teammate getting attacked by 3 Republic players, so I run to help him out knowing, if played well, we can win or at least kill two. While I was casting my heals and bringing him to 60-70% he used stealth and run away leaving me alone. Of course, they killed me and he said:

 

"Haha, you died!!!"

 

After I explained I died trying to save him, he added:

 

"You, sir, are kind! Your kindness won't be forgotten! lol" (of course, he was mocking with me)

 

 

[Mazzeric]

Epic post. Brilliantly written. Took the words out of my mouth (fingers?).

 

I hope the developers read this.

 

It's become increasingly clear, now, especially with the 1.2 patch notes, that the development team errs in favor of PvP over PvE. In an MMO, this simply cannot happen.

[Cyberedward]

Frustrations Frustrations Frustrations.

 

Reading threads and threads of forum rants about healing nerfs made me more and more negative about the role than ever. It made me even wonder why I even rolled a healer in the first place.

 

Then this post shocked the realization into me like a defibrillator.

 

I remember playing WoW, and leveling my first character, a Paladin. I was new to MMOs then, and was advised by my guild to go retribution(DPS). However, watching videos of raids and pvp with Holy Paladins made me want to role a healer, cause it was just that inspiring. I just felt that I had the ability to be a good healer, so I tried it, I leveled as a healer.

 

My first dungeon/instance as a Holy Paladin was an extremely enjoyable experience, it was with a very patient Tank, and 3 DPS who were the funniest guys ever. At the end of every boss fight, which proved tough for me, the group would tell me, " Great Heals". This phrase surged me into full throttle, and I got all the way to level cap as a healer.

 

Compliments and thanks from then on were hard to come by, but every time I was losing hope, I was lucky enough to receive them. The motivation was greatest when we took super nerfs, and we were able to adapt to them.

 

With this memory, I will receive this nerf with a pinch, or more, of salt and continue to heal. I know it probably wasn't your intention, but thanks OP.

 

To all Healers, here's a big thanks to our great community. To me, the healer community will always be the one's who gave the best advice, constructive criticism, and were always the most understanding company there was.

 

Let's Keep the DPS snobs alive, and preserve our MMO tradition!

[wrotruck]

No, I did not believe Op healing was fine. Check out my signature. I started out as an Operative, but re-rolled Merc because they were UP. If all healers are balanced with each other, then it's fine. If they are balanced in such a way that healers are challenged, even better.

 

I do agree that healers could use better tools (esp cooldowns), but that is not related to this thread, which is talking about the 1.2 healer nerfs.

 

I have been following this back and fourth for a few posts now I have to say what your argument tells me is that the devs gave us to much gear to early. You said yourself that healing naked would be much more challeneging than doing it in full Rataka. So, if that is case wouldn't it make more sense to nerf our gear levels rather reworking the skill trees, reworking a bunch of healing mechanics & making a large portion of your community angry? Or, wouldn't it make more sense to make the next tier's gear only marginally more powerful but really ramp up the diffculty of the encounters?

 

The problem that I, and many others, have is that they are trying to "fix" something that isn't broken. Sage/Commando mechanics (for the most part) weren't broken. The whole community is in agreement that the healer that needs the re-work is the smuggler/operative. So, now you have 2/3 of your healing community that feels slighted beacuse they got smacked, HARD, with the nerf bat and the remaining 1/3 that feels slighted becasue they were, for the the most part, ignored.

 

If they are doing all of this becasue they can't figure out how to control gear inflation and have an inability to design challeneging end game encounters (which is what your posts suggest) than we have an even larger problem.

 

And, after all the bravdo about how they were going to listen to the community and then to do next to nothing about the Smuggler/Operative healing is nothing short of a travisty and very clearly tells the community that they either aren't listening or that they don't care.

 

What I don't get is why YOU are not more upset that they clearly nothing to make your OP a more viable. Doesn't it bother you? You are, after all, paying the same $15 as the rest of us.

 

Just my 2 cents...

[VonGrossenkiir]

As a BH healer I will be the first to admit yes aoe healing is a MASSIVE PAIN. Dealing with idiot dps who can't let the tank hit mobs first regardless of how many mmos they have been told this in they still can't do it. The fact they are cutting all our heals that much won't do squat other then ensure these casual dps players die over and over and over so we need to hear all about how we suck because they can't manage aggro / LET THE TANK HIT MOBS FIRST. Oh but kolto missile heals 1 more person since it is a mediocre heal.

 

Ways To PREVENT SWTOR From Being WoW.

1. Stop Coddling The DPS. As ACTUAL gamers have proven they can do things that require dps with a tank and healer alone so long as there is no enrage timer. From this DPS ARE EXPENDABLE as well they are easy to replace since the bulk of the player base are dps.

 

2. Rather then endlessly nerf everyone because it's less effort by you bioware do what made players happy BEFORE gaming got pathetic buff everyone if people have to emo rage over every stupid little thing about how 1 buff is better then another tell them to suck it up and deal with it.

 

3. ONLY Change a buff or nerf IF the player can give a well thought out explanation about why it is unfair or imbalanced cause most casuals can't do that.

[Terrof]

I just rolled / leveled a commando to 39, mostly through PVP based leveling and class/companion questing.

 

Frankly, it's quite obvious that the Bioware developers / tweakers / whatever their title is have never actually healed. As a commando healing, I'm constantly and consistantly focus-fired by at least 2, usually more people. As soon as these monster-truck nerfs hit, I'm fairly certain on top of my survivability tanking worse than it already has, in all likelihood I'm going to abandon my Medic-mando entirely in disgust.

 

I have always either tanked, healed or both in all the MMOs I've played. I tank on a Tankassin at the moment, and I enjoy that. I went Commando for healing cause, let's be honest, I wanted the giant prototype bot and the thought of healing someone with a cannon belonging to a starship amused me. Sadly, I don't think it's going to be possible with the changes to ammo use.

 

(Primarily Trauma prob, which was a free activation, now costing 2 ammo; the Field Triage change was just a kick in the nuts. I can live with the crit loss, and the decrease in cure / Field Aid + adding a heal to it specced is handy.)

 

Better Idea: Lock in a 20 second CD on T-Probe so we can't spam it as opposed to making it cost a fortune in ammo in comparison to it's relative healing.

 

Better Idea: $% off with the Field Triage change, that's just mean! With the loss of overall healing / crit, did you have to be a giggling Operative and hamstring me out of stealth, too?

 

I'm inclined to agree with the "I'm Shocked" posts I've been reading all over the forum. If we thought finding healers for runs were hard before, it's gonna be "fun times" come 1.2 even with a server-wide LFG queue. If there's little to no healers, won't be running stuff anyway. ><

 

Thank you for your time, my 2 cents.

~Kem'Korin, Dreshdae Cantina.

 

CE Owner. Wondering why at this point.

[ShadowAxx]

If we thought finding healers for runs were hard before, it's gonna be "fun times" come 1.2 even with a server-wide LFG queue. If there's little to no healers, won't be running stuff anyway. ><

 

You see, you only know this because you PLAY the game. BioWare will only know this when there is QQing from the group on the forums who seem to have their ear.

[Terrof]

You see, you only know this because you PLAY the game. BioWare will only know this when there is QQing from the group on the forums who seem to have their ear.

 

 

Any idea how to "Get an ear", so to speak? <.<;

 

~Kem'korin, Dreshdae Cantina.