Leave the healers alone, they need encouragement.

[RuQu]

You see, you only know this because you PLAY the game. BioWare will only know this when there is QQing from the group on the forums who seem to have their ear.

 

I would think this would be obvious to anyone who has ever played any MMO. Or who has the basic reasoning skills to go:

 

1) 4 Player Groups need a 25% healer population.

2) If the healer population drops below 25%, non-healers will have trouble finding groups.

3) People who can't find groups have less fun.

4) People who have less fun are less likely to resubscribe.

5) People who don't resubscribe don't give us $$.

 

Therefore, we should try and keep the healer population above 25%.

 

Of course, 4 player groups are why 25% healer/tank populations are needed, vs 20% in WoW's 5 player groups. Tanks/Healers are still sometimes hard to find in WoW, so expecting a larger percentage of healer and tank players was already optimistic at best.

 

They should be doing their best to encourage tanks and healers, not the exact opposite.

[Azkit]

I have been following this back and fourth for a few posts now I have to say what your argument tells me is that the devs gave us to much gear to early. You said yourself that healing naked would be much more challeneging than doing it in full Rataka. So, if that is case wouldn't it make more sense to nerf our gear levels rather reworking the skill trees, reworking a bunch of healing mechanics & making a large portion of your community angry? Or, wouldn't it make more sense to make the next tier's gear only marginally more powerful but really ramp up the diffculty of the encounters?

 

1) Gear scaling appears to be at a comfortable pace, IMO. The thing with being naked is that because stats have diminishing returns, the less gear you have, your character becomes exponentially worse at performing its role. Gear inflation is already countered by diminishing returns.

 

2) Making the content more difficult for healers sounds like you're suggesting increasing the damage that encounters put out. Players have a limited amount of health. Simply increasing the damage output can lead to situations where players are quickly killed with little time to react, which is very annoying to deal with. There are already certain bosses in which I wouldn't want to see the boss's damage increased in certain phases, such as during a frenzy.

 

3) BioWare is re-working heat/ammo and force regen. This will cause these classes to have to pay attention to their resource mechanics better. Simply nerfing gear or upping boss mechanics cannot do that.

 

 

The problem that I, and many others, have is that they are trying to "fix" something that isn't broken. Sage/Commando mechanics (for the most part) weren't broken. The whole community is in agreement that the healer that needs the re-work is the smuggler/operative.

 

Perception is everything. It's easy to look at the one class that is less powerful and say that that class needs a buff. However, if you broaden the picture, you see that Mercs/Commandos and Sorcs/Sages is too easy right now. While the simple fix would have been to make Ops/Scoundrels as strong as the other healers, it's better for the game if players are challenged.

 

Yes, more complex rotations / situational abilities / cooldowns are also a good thing. However, adding more complexity to healers doesn't diminish the need for increased resource management.

 

 

What I don't get is why YOU are not more upset that they clearly nothing to make your OP a more viable. Doesn't it bother you? You are, after all, paying the same $15 as the rest of us.

 

I admit, when I first saw these changes, I was shocked and couldn't believe it. Now that I've had a chance to reflect on the changes, I support them. 'Mana' management has always been apart of what makes good healers in every game that I've ever known (some more-so than others). I'm not sure why people want SWTOR to be an exception.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Azkit

[Wrathoran]

It's bad ethics when to balance a game, developers choose to hit the healing population mercilessly. It is absolutely stage 3 - game is in emergency - knee jerk reaction - band aid solution - or an act of complete lack of empathy towards your players base, and community as a whole.

 

Let me explain why.

 

Healing by itself, is a thankless job. During our mmo lives, we as players, have to live with many tunes, we understand that - but when healers are hit so hard as you just hit them, it is a usually during an expansion when all classes are changed, design philosophy changes, AND all classes are given new skills. This is not the case here. Nothing has changed, except the introduction of rated warzones.

 

So, going back to healing being a thankless job, you get aspect number two. Who are these players that play healers? Being the thankless, stressful job that it is? It is your most dedicated player base. The ones that hold the community together. It is the number one driving force in the dynamics of guilds. Healers, believe it or not, have the toughest job out there. It used to be tanks, but that was 3 or so years ago, when they used to be the most dedicated - and a good tank, a dedicated tank, was worth an entire guild roster.

 

Which brings me to the last point.

 

Healers don't reroll. They are so crushed, so passionate, when they get hit - or in this case, gutted, that all their enthusiasm, passion for the game suffers in the tremendous investment they have put into their class. A dps class will always be more lenient towards the aspect of tunes in chasing that all important highest crit or aoe damage or most damage, it is always an evolving process that by its nature takes them through different builds, different classes, chasing that high which a dps class by nature provides. Healers have a different dynamic. They only care about keeping their group alive, so when they get gutted, it really really hits home hard for them. And, it hurts everyone.

 

When a dps gets tuned, well, that's life, but when healers get an across the board slaughter in order to balance pvp, that is the most callous thing you can do to your community and I hope you understand that.

 

You can always buff dps, give them new toys, different ways to handle healers - which is usually done by locking one down and focusing/interrupting them or just bursting them once their big cool downs have expired. But going after the healers is just wrong.

 

You can't sit there with a bunch of numbers, and try to balance the game, especially an area like pvp, because like it or not, most players that pvp are not very good - they don't understand how to kill a healer. They don't understand bursting a healer down, they don't understand HOW and WHEN to interrupt them and FORCE said healer to blow their most important cooldowns, and once they expire, FOCUS them down. That is how it's done. If that's not possible in swtor, then you planned your dps classes wrong, but to gut the healers and do this to them without even prior warning is the lowest of the low, and one of the worst things you can do in a game just because by definition, a healer is ranked as a "healbot" for a reason - they don't get much respect from any players especially the dps focused ones and are expected to heal, heal, and then heal some more - thanklessly. And when they fail, the answer is - yo dude where's my heal. It's the life of a healer. Why you would make their jobs even more UNFUN is beyond me.

 

So you give out all these nice toys, like legacy, but guess what, it's only the dps players who will enjoy these new toys. The healers are left in bewilderment, and I think a large part of their community is in a state of shock right now. You will lose a lot of subscriptions if these changes are not re-thought.

 

they should give healing reduction talent instead. In pvp a full geared healer is like a god. Really really really hard to kill and need alot of peopel focusing him. This is unbalanced

[Bluetickone]

Thank you for the post.

 

It's bad enough I felt like I made the wrong choice going as a BH/Merc, largely due to playing a Sorc in beta and feeling like I needed a change.

 

Trying to heal as a BH/Merc was never OP. Even in PvP, it was team tactics that benefit healers not the healers themselves. So even after this nerf, good teams are still going to roll over the QQ PvP players , who are likely at the root of this change.

 

I, like many other healers, have unsubscribed from SWToT tonight. If these changes go live in patch 1.2 I will not resubscribe. I will not roll another toon, I will not switch to DPS. I will accept the fact that BioWare does not care about me, other healers or the player base in general.

 

It's a sad day for SWToR.

 

ShadowAxx

The Swiftsure

 

Its even more irritating when I spent considerable time getting healing BM and rakata sets only to find out BH/Troopers are clearly the undesirable third-string healer now for both pvp and pve. I might consider sticking around to dps, but the thought of redoing all the dalies, and starting over is just too irritating.

 

There is a serious lack of communication from BW -- nowhere did they indicate that these sort of massive changes were comming in 1.2.

 

It also boogles me that these changes were required for pvp -- which already has a 50 percent healing debuff and unlimited interrupts without any immunity.....even without combat logs its obvious healing was completely gimped in pvp with real pvpers (just divide health of raid bosses by enrage timers and average required dps is above 1200 on all HM boss fights, significantly higher in NM mode -- you cant even come close to sustaining 1200 HPS in pvp with a 50 percent debuff, nevermind interrupts)...

Edited March 21, 2012 by Bluetickone

[Azkit]

Its even more irritating when I spent considerable time getting healing BM and rakata sets only to find out BH/Troopers are clearly the undesirable third-string healer now for both pvp and pve.

 

I don't believe Mercs will be any less undesirable than Sorcs/Ops come 1.2, from a PvE perspective. Operatives already had difficult energy management. Mercs are simply getting the same.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Azkit

[Bluetickone]

I don't believe Mercs will be any less undesirable than Sorcs/Ops come 1.2, from a PvE perspective. Operatives already had difficult energy management. Mercs are simply getting the same.

 

The are weaker in every conceivable way -- no prevenatative heals, now weaker ST heals, considerably weaker aoe heals, no combat res.....its a joke...

[RuQu]

I don't believe Mercs will be any less undesirable than Sorcs/Ops come 1.2, from a PvE perspective. Operatives already had difficult energy management. Mercs are simply getting the same.

 

That Operatives had worse management problems than Commandos/Mercs is an argument from ignorance.

 

Our core heal combos have the same price, 25% (KI/SP vs AP/MP).

 

Operatives had a window 40% of their resource wide (100-60 Energy) for max regen.

 

Mercs had a window 39% wide. Commandos it was only 33%.

 

Operative base regen was 5% per second at in this window. Stim Boost increased this to 6% (an extra 3 Energy every 3s).

 

Mercs and Commandos had 5%, and could not increase it.

 

If we used SCC on cooldown for regen, that was 2 Ammo every 25s. To be able to do this required Hammer Shot usage. This equates to a max of 0.08 Ammo per second, or 0.67% regen. 10HS casts = 30CSC charges which is what we need to use SCC. We also get 6 from MP, so lets assume for now that 8 HS casts were used. This takes 12s, enough time for 4 Diagnostic Scans (and note that DS scales with Alacrity and HS does not).

 

If you used Diagnostic Scan 4 times, it will tick 12 times total. With the skill that adds 25% crit chance, an assumption of 50% should be attainable by anyone easily. So we can assume, on average, that 6 of those ticks were crits. That means you returned 12 Energy over 12 seconds....for an average rate of 1 Energy per second, or 1%.

 

Let's put it all together.

Operative: 5% base + 1% Stim boost + 1% DS weaving = 7% regen per second.

Commando: 5% base + 0.67% max from SCC (less in practice) = 5.67%

 

Core abilities cost the same, Commandos have a 7% smaller max regen window...you get the picture.

 

Now, to be fair, you may have to weave in an extra KP to keep the stack up, so every 18s you lose 15 Energy. Factoring that 15Energy/18s cost in brings you down to 6.167% regen, still higher than a Commando could ever achieve if he only used SCC for regen and never saved it for upcoming damage.

 

After this change, our costs just went up 30%. Yours stayed the same. I don't think I need to type that math out for you, too, do I?

[Prophetic]

After this change, our costs just went up 30%. Yours stayed the same. I don't think I need to type that math out for you, too, do I?

 

Not to mention that, by all accounts in Lileth and Saerith's testing threads, Scoundrel healers also got buffs to their HoT healing, which puts us further above Commandos. The only thing Commandos really had on us was that their utility buffs made for a great MT healer, but that just got slashed to hell, so it doesn't really leave them with much.

 

It's disheartening.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Prophetic

[ShadowAxx]

Any idea how to "Get an ear", so to speak? <.<;

 

Well, IMHO we are doing our part by posting and unsubscribing. If our efforts have no impact on the final release of patch 1.2, that outcome as far as a customer support perspective, will be just as bad as the issues with the patch. Maybe more so because I think we are not only making a strong argument, but doing so in a responsible manner.

 

There so many assumptions and conclusions one could try to make, but until BioWare breaks their silence on some of the fundamental questions asked regarding the proposed changes, we really don't know what's going on.

 

I think the idea of disgruntled healers boycotting PUG groups would be a reasonable action to help focus attention on the already short supply of healers in the game.

 

If our efforts end up making some developers feel cornered or even embarrassed to admit the mistake in changing the healer specs as planned, that too would be a more serious issue than the changes them selves.

 

We should just keep plugging away. Gather and report as much testing feedback from 1.2 as possible, and be willing to accept changes that are fair, while resisting unnecessary changes.

 

As I said in another thread, RuQu and others are doing a great job. I commend their efforts.

 

Axx

[Xaearth]

Not to mention that, by all accounts in Lileth and Saerith's testing threads, Scoundrel healers also got buffs to their HoT healing, which puts us further above Commandos. The only thing Commandos really had on us was that their utility buffs made for a great MT healer, but that just got slashed to hell, so it doesn't really leave them with much.

 

It's disheartening.

 

Link/quote?

I've been trying to keep an eye out for "under the hood changes" so my opinion of GZ being a total ******* might lessen ever so slightly, but haven't kept up with all the Merc/Commando and Sorc/Sage threads - the former is too depressing and the latter is too infuriating (too many Sorc/Sages without a clue spouting crap - went diving into Saerith's and had to give up when I came across several people complaining that bubble isn't good for burst ).

 

Unless you just meant the AoE HoT... Outside of keeping it on 1 or 2 targets for the TA proc, KP is pretty lolworthy on live.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Xaearth

[RuQu]

Link/quote?

I've been trying to keep an eye out for "under the hood changes" so my opinion of GZ being a total ******* might lessen ever so slightly, but haven't kept up with all the Merc/Commando and Sorc/Sage threads - the former is too depressing and the latter is too infuriating (too many Sorc/Sages without a clue spouting crap).

 

Unless you just meant the AoE HoT... Outside of keeping it on 1 or 2 targets for the TA proc, KP is pretty lolworthy on live.

 

I believe the report Prophetic is referring to came from Saerith, a Sage, commenting on the power of Scoundrel HoTs in PvP. The most likely cause was the buff to expertise, not an actual stealth HoT buff.

 

Once my massive PTS download finishes I will be doing some data-mining to see if they actually changed the strength of any heals for all 3 classes.

[Endusima]

I believe the report Prophetic is referring to came from Saerith, a Sage, commenting on the power of Scoundrel HoTs in PvP. The most likely cause was the buff to expertise, not an actual stealth HoT buff.

 

The scenario described was 2x Scoundrels crosshealing eachother with a tank who was switching guard between them. The frustration came from the fact that they could not interrupt anything since the Scoundrels kept using hots.

 

Tbh the scenario is almost a worst-case and will most likely never ever be encountered by any of us in a real WZ so I would not be bothered too much with it.

[swtorEleani]

The problem is not the healing...

 

...the problem is the combination of heal+guard+spot.

 

If I'm on my own, no guard - no spot, and been focussed by one geared+skilled dd I've got my hands full with keeping myself alive, maybe spend a shield every now an than, but that's it. I can try to sprint away and hope that I can bring of one or two heals for the group.

 

I will not deny that I can keep myself alive against almost every class in a one on one situation, but in openworld pvp the dd just runs away at some point, if he's not plain dumb. In a wz they almost every time try to down you even if it's their own death they're risking (max 30sek later they are there again - so almost no one cares... )

 

Don't let me start about being focused by a bunch of player thanks to that big YELLOW-THAT'S-THE-MAINTARGET-STAR on my head... I die in under 3seconds with full bm-gear.

 

On the other hand when I'm grouped with a geared+skilled tank plus a second healer which helps out when beeing focussed by more than 4-5 dds we're almost impossible to stop...

[Endusima]

It's a L2P issue. Guard does not reduce damage taken by 50% it simply distributes it evenly between you and your tank.

[Azkit]

That Operatives had worse management problems than Commandos/Mercs is an argument from ignorance.

 

I've raided with both a Merc and an Operative. I always had trouble figuring out why energy is more difficult to manage than heat for exactly the reasons you describe - Operative energy regen being 6/sec while heat cooling being 5/sec and the bread-n-butter heal being the same energy/heat cost for both classes. However, it's still the case that Operative energy is more difficult to manage than Merc heat in practice currently. I've run my own simulations which also show this to be the case in single target healing situations, even if I can't pin point the exact reasoning why this is the case.

[Shroudveil]

I've raided with both a Merc and an Operative. I always had trouble figuring out why energy is more difficult to manage than heat for exactly the reasons you describe - Operative energy regen being 6/sec while heat cooling being 5/sec and the bread-n-butter heal being the same energy/heat cost for both classes. However, it's still the case that Operative energy is more difficult to manage than Merc heat in practice currently. I've run my own simulations which also show this to be the case in single target healing situations, even if I can't pin point the exact reasoning why this is the case.

 

because RS being instant is usable much more easily than DS which is a channel

[RuQu]

because RS being instant is usable much more easily than DS which is a channel

 

Which is exactly why "make DS instant" or "make it cast-able while moving" was on the suggestion list.

 

One of the other key problems was the Emergency Medpac is so very, very weak. It has a coefficient of 1.38, which means that it scales only marginally better than Hammer Shot does. It does have a base heal, but it scales terribly with gear. This is slightly offset by the increased usage due to SRMP procs, and my sims have the two producing near identical sustained HPS. Of course, Commando burst was better, and the lack of efficient burst likely drove Scoundrels into lower regen where they had fewer tools to get out (ie we could wait and pop SCC then, so it was less passive regen but an extra bit of active regen when needed which is more valuable).

 

So in the end it came down to a lack of proper tools for Scoundrels. Instead of giving them those tools, they just took them away from everyone else.

[Shroudveil]

Which is exactly why "make DS instant" or "make it cast-able while moving" was on the suggestion list.

 

One of the other key problems was the Emergency Medpac is so very, very weak. It has a coefficient of 1.38, which means that it scales only marginally better than Hammer Shot does. It does have a base heal, but it scales terribly with gear. This is slightly offset by the increased usage due to SRMP procs, and my sims have the two producing near identical sustained HPS. Of course, Commando burst was better, and the lack of efficient burst likely drove Scoundrels into lower regen where they had fewer tools to get out (ie we could wait and pop SCC then, so it was less passive regen but an extra bit of active regen when needed which is more valuable).

 

So in the end it came down to a lack of proper tools for Scoundrels. Instead of giving them those tools, they just took them away from everyone else.

 

yup.

 

i comes down to this: do 300hps (DS) for 3 secs (terrible, terrible output) or do 500hps for 1.5sec (bad output but managable).

to top it off, the worse one is also stationary and etc etc etc.

 

now they made DS 30$faster, still nowhere near the hps of RS, still you need to stay still and etc.

 

energy managment seems better on paper, but when you account energy managment+hps while you manage it it was tottally off, this is why it seemed like operatives had so much worse resource system.

[Meetstick]

Healers, believe it or not, have the toughest job out there. It used to be tanks, but that was 3 or so years ago, when they used to be the most dedicated - and a good tank, a dedicated tank, was worth an entire guild roster.

 

 

=/...

 

SWTOR hasn't been out for three years.

 

Do you mean to say that, in your mind, you've just lumped SWTOR into WoW (or whatever MMO you're coming from... sounds like WoW) and are thinking that lightsabers got added into the mix somewhere along the way?

 

New game, new game developers. If you want to do your rant, fine. That's probably in large part why designers provide these forums - to give folks a place where they can let off steam without disrupting the game as a whole - but try to at least contain your comments and observations to the game you're currently playing. Bioware doesn't know and to a large extent likely doesn't care what the folks in Irvine or wherever did 3 years ago. They have a plan to implement in, oh lessee, their SECOND CONTENT PATCH EVER, and it may work or it may not.

 

Prolly not, but still, too many people predicting Armageddon are less likely to be listened to, not more likely.

[Karma_UK]

PvP ing as a Sage in 1.2...

 

Take egress for the extra speed,

 

bubble+force speed+find a good pillar to hump, while you teamm8's peel

 

How else can we keep ourselves alive? I guess we are not meant to which is pretty disheartening as a healer.

 

Don't even go there with salvation pls....

 

Trying to think of other MMO's that have to have a trauma debuff to compensate for bad maths?

[wrotruck]

1) Gear scaling appears to be at a comfortable pace, IMO. The thing with being naked is that because stats have diminishing returns, the less gear you have, your character becomes exponentially worse at performing its role. Gear inflation is already countered by diminishing returns.

 

My point is that less stats on gear = smaller heals = more heals cast = more of a classes "mana" used = additional managment required without breaking existing mechanics.

 

2) Making the content more difficult for healers sounds like you're suggesting increasing the damage that encounters put out. Players have a limited amount of health. Simply increasing the damage output can lead to situations where players are quickly killed with little time to react, which is very annoying to deal with. There are already certain bosses in which I wouldn't want to see the boss's damage increased in certain phases, such as during a frenzy.

 

Make the enocunters more difficult for everyone. Examples:

1. Force more movement and require burst healing with a spread out group

2. add a debuff to tanks

3. add a mechanic that will force healers to keep track of the bosses health or other things

 

It is my opinon that current end game encounters are not challenging enough for all classes, not just healers. And, by the way, reducing "mana" regen is about the same as increasing incoming damage. The net result is a loss in a groups effective health pool.

 

3) BioWare is re-working heat/ammo and force regen. This will cause these classes to have to pay attention to their resource mechanics better. Simply nerfing gear or upping boss mechanics cannot do that.

 

I'm okay with them reworking "mana" regen. I have a problem with them reworking the mechanics of my class 3 months into the game. There are small tweeks that could be made. I will give example from a Sage perspective becase that's the class I play...

 

1. Change NS force regen debuff is now 33% up from 25% and will stack 3 times.

2. Change the free NS to proc less

3. Lower the amount of force recovered by NS.

4. Put a longer cooldown on NS.

5. Make the NS force regen debuff last longer

 

Look, there are 5 options that would slow force recovery without breaking the current class mechanics. I am not well versed with the other two classes but I am sure that there are options like these that could be used on those classes as well.

 

Problem solved and mechanics are preserved.

 

Perception is everything. It's easy to look at the one class that is less powerful and say that that class needs a buff. However, if you broaden the picture, you see that Mercs/Commandos and Sorcs/Sages is too easy right now. While the simple fix would have been to make Ops/Scoundrels as strong as the other healers, it's better for the game if players are challenged.

 

Yes, more complex rotations / situational abilities / cooldowns are also a good thing. However, adding more complexity to healers doesn't diminish the need for increased resource management.

 

I agree with your in this regard. But to not address the issues with OPs/Smugglers shows that they have not listened to the community. And the changes they are making is like doing surgery with a machette. There are far more elegant and effecient ways to achieve increased resource managment and those would almost certainly be better recieved by the community.

 

I admit, when I first saw these changes, I was shocked and couldn't believe it. Now that I've had a chance to reflect on the changes, I support them. 'Mana' management has always been apart of what makes good healers in every game that I've ever known (some more-so than others). I'm not sure why people want SWTOR to be an exception.

 

I think you are missing the the issue. Bioware is needlessly breaking/reworking mechanics on classes that aren't broken and avoiding a class that needs serious help. If better resource managment is what they want than there are better ways to do it.

 

I'm not asking to be an exception but I'm not going re-learn my class mechanics every 3-4 months. That's not fun or challeneging... It's annoying.

[Phanatik]

Geez I know I've gotten softer after playing mostly healers in the last 8 years of mmo playing, but holy crap.

 

You sound miserable.

 

I play a support role, not the ignored sad faced clown sitting in the corner.

[JLapp]

It is my opinon that current end game encounters are not challenging enough for all classes, not just healers.

 

I'd just like to say that I strongly agree with this point. I've done ops as all three roles (dps through some nightmares, tanks/2x dps through hard mode ops, and healer through normal mode ops so far) and I'd say that right now healing is probably the most challenging of the 3 roles as it is. It could be my healer is under-geared, and I know to some extent my group could be better at avoiding damage, but I think the point still stands.

 

In 1.2 my tank and dps aren't going to change...but healing will. Tweaks would be fine...massive changes are unneeded.

[wrotruck]

New game, new game developers. If you want to do your rant, fine. That's probably in large part why designers provide these forums - to give folks a place where they can let off steam without disrupting the game as a whole - but try to at least contain your comments and observations to the game you're currently playing. Bioware doesn't know and to a large extent likely doesn't care what the folks in Irvine or wherever did 3 years ago. They have a plan to implement in, oh lessee, their SECOND CONTENT PATCH EVER, and it may work or it may not.

 

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

 

Bioware better be paying attention to what is and has happened in Irvine because, like it or not, WoW is still the 800 lb. gorilla in the middle of the MMO room. Blizzard has made a lot of mistakes and had a lot of successes and each one can and should be learned from by Bioware.

 

The reality is that MMO customers are more sophisticated now than we were 3-5 years ago and will not be as patient while a company stumbles through "figuring out an MMO" the way we would have then. Those customers will simply take their dollars to a place where they can be satisfied with what they are getting at the price. And have no illusion, Bioware and EA have a profit motive.

 

In other words, Bioware better pay attention beacuse the money is!

Edited March 22, 2012 by wrotruck
Quote correction

[RuQu]

"Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it."

 

Bioware better be paying attention to what is and has happened in Irvine because, like it or not, WoW is still the 800 lb. gorilla in the middle of the MMO room. Blizzard has made a lot of mistakes and had a lot of successes and each one can and should be learned from by Bioware.

 

The reality is that MMO customers are more sophisticated now than we were 3-5 years ago and will not be as patient while a company stumbles through "figuring out an MMO" the way we would have then. Those customers will simply take their dollars to a place where they can be satisfied with what they are getting at the price. And have no illusion, Bioware and EA have a profit motive.

 

In other words, Bioware better pay attention beacuse the money is!

 

Heh. You ever play SWG at launch? Perfectly acceptable at the time, but they would have been laughed out of the market before they even had a chance to ruin the game with the NGE if they tried to launch that game now in the state it was then.

 

For that matter, go run Molten Core in WoW. They haven't changed it. It is archaic and simple and would be laughable as a modern raid.

 

You can't release a new game with old mechanics and say "This one is new, so it's excused from being modern." That makes zero sense.

 

I realize that BW is new to the MMO market, and they are going to have to adjust to that from single-player games. But the #1 lesson they need to learn is that customer opinion matters. Revenue from these games comes from us continuing to play, not just the initial purchase like single-player games.