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Healers be happy - No nerf in pvp


Threskov

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Um... Sage regeneration isn't zoned like other classes. No matter how much force a Sage has, their regen rate is the same.

 

Exactly (altho I play Sorc). We're getting screwed with the change to consumption. We have NO WAY to regenerate force other than wating or trying to hide in order to Seethe. NONE. Anyone who uses consumption as a healer now is a moron. Plain and simple. 15%of your health to get 48 force back when getting focus-fired is around every corner, especially if people know you and know you heal and have set a target over your head? No way. Total screwjob.

 

As it is, we can barely kill anyone if spec'd full healing, so why take away our ability to heal well too? Unless people think we can viably run around with our glowstick trying to regenerate force with our crappy melee attack so we can find a safe spot to stand STATIONARY IN LIGHT ARMOR while everyone else runs away and our now-longer heals are either interrupted by damage, an interrupt ability, focus-fire and people wailing on us or people running out of range while you sat there trying to cast, STATIONARY AND IN LIGHT ARMOR.

 

Good for yuo guys who whined like babies. You got the nerfs you wanted. Now sorcs/sages healing will be even easier pickins.

 

I seriously dont' think BW even plays this *********** game after reading some of these changes.

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Slow heals and lowered resources will make for not very much healing. Lets just say healing is "buffed" with expertise. With slow cast times healers will be interrupted more making for much less healing. Juke you say? First, juking is good to have a enemy waste an interrupt ... but wait, that interrupt was also a stun, so you break stun and begin casting your now much needed heal as your healing target and yourself are both going down... BAM!... another interrupt. By this time resurgence has come back up and you toss it on the most needed player, you switch to dark heal or innervate because your infusion is still locked. You cast in vain as this heal is either keeping pace with your healing target or yourself (not both) while either you or he is still getting slaughtered. Quick recast bubble on both of you. Renew resurgence on proper target. Oh crap! Im low and target is low but so is targets target. Cast either innervate or infusion on myself before I die... Bam! intrupt. Target kills his target (maybe comes to my aid). Now my target kills me and kills my healing target because he still has close to full health while healing target is low.

 

 

TL;DR

Hard to heal when you are:

 

1) Juking (while good) = canceled heal = no healing output

2) Interrupted over and over from players with 2-3 interrupts one being only less than 10 seconds.

3) Having to heal yourself just to stay afloat so no healing output going to team.

4) This on top of having resources nerfed.

 

Healing "buffed"? Considering only expertise maybe.... considering 1.2 sorc and other changes..... Noe-pp. Incoming mar/sent rerolls and subsequent QQ storm about them on the forums.

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I know that via expertise healers get a relativ good buff, BUT thats not the problem, the problem bh and sorchealers have with the changes on PTR right now are:

 

For Bh/Trooper healers if a teamm8 is underpressure they wont be able to manage their heat for long aka they'll be overheating pretty fast

 

Sorcs wont have ANY burstheal at all the bubble absorbs about 3.5k dmg, dark infusion is a 2.5k cast, so not worth it in PvP and juking a 2.5sec cast is a joke ! So you'll have to use dark heal... a heal that CRITS for 2k heal on live... so with the expertise buff probably around 2.4k heal and noncrit yes it makes 1.4k than, thats absurd.... if yxou look at the damage that can be done in 1.5 seconds. innervat is our only good heal but has a 9 second cooldown.. if at least the 4 piece setbonus would reduce cooldown of innervat by 1.5sec as in pve or like other casters get, so i have to pve to get the 2 piece setbonus and take out the armaments for the setbonus and be viable in PvP

 

operativ healers will be the gods with my ophealertwink the 1.5 sec cast easily crits for 3.5k already while the 2sec cast does 4.1k to 4.5k (same as the 2.5sec of sorcerers !!! ) so with 1.2 the 1.5sec heal will crit for 4k? while the sorchealers crits for 2.4k? okay the operativ 1.5sec heal needs an ta but cmon DAKRHEAL should crit on 1.2 with the buff for at least 3k than sorcs would be fine...

but i havent seen any sorc stating that this is the case or giving out any numbers, perhaps dark heal got buffed? if so why did no one on the forums tell anyone? so i just guess it didnt and if it didnt get revamped somehow sorc healers are screwed pvpwhiseas good healeras! forcereg beeing crippled because in full warhero gear you gonna dmg you with 3k to get only 48force which is only nearly a dark heal that will than heal for 2.4k? no way...

 

Ha...you mentioned the set bonuses for sorc healers...don't even get us started. What a complete screwjob from BW.

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Bubble - Gone instantluy from the opening hit, even with talents...and then you're debuffed for 12 seconds if you have the gear...15 seconds if not.

 

AoE heal - Interrupted. Anyone who notices you casting this that doesn't interrupt you, cc you, start to beat on you like a runaway sisterwife in hopes it kills the cast...is terrible, especially in front of a door or by the turrets.

 

Nuke heal - Interrupted, and now with more frequent interrupts.

 

Quick heal - Waste of force...terrible force cost to heal ratio.

 

Insta-cast HoT - Can't keep up with dmg, even when stacked with the channeled HoT.

 

Channeled HoT - Can't keep up with dmg, even stacked with the insta-cast HoT.

 

We need all these tools tosynergize in order to do a good job. BW is making it far harder for them to synergize with some of these changes. LOnger cast times mean that stacking heal effects will happen less frequently and the nerf to resource management is awful.

 

Except your instant hot gives your quick heal an effective crit chance of 100%.

 

Thus for a sorc:

 

1.2 Resurgence->DH will heal for more on average than 1.1.5 REsurgence->DI while taking the same amount of time to cast, and consuming less of your force resource.

 

You're chance for a 'critted burst' goes away, but your average healing goes up.

 

The only real loss thats sorc healers suffered was the fix to double-tapping DI, which was needed, and now consumption will take your health every time, which was needed.

 

But then again, Sorcs feel that maybe their QQing can make their class OP again, just like QQing got these changes.

Edited by Sir_Toothless
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Slow heals and lowered resources will make for not very much healing. Lets just say healing is "buffed" with expertise. With slow cast times healers will be interrupted more making for much less healing. Juke you say? First, juking is good to have a enemy waste an interrupt ... but wait, that interrupt was also a stun, so you break stun and begin casting your now much needed heal as your healing target and yourself are both going down... BAM!... another interrupt. By this time resurgence has come back up and you toss it on the most needed player, you switch to dark heal or innervate because your infusion is still locked. You cast in vain as this heal is either keeping pace with your healing target or yourself (not both) while either you or he is still getting slaughtered. Quick recast bubble on both of you. Renew resurgence on proper target. Oh crap! Im low and target is low but so is targets target. Cast either innervate or infusion on myself before I die... Bam! intrupt. Target kills his target (maybe comes to my aid). Now my target kills me and kills my healing target because he still has close to full health while healing target is low.

 

 

TL;DR

Hard to heal when you are:

 

1) Juking (while good) = canceled heal = no healing output

2) Interrupted over and over from players with 2-3 interrupts one being only less than 10 seconds.

3) Having to heal yourself just to stay afloat so no healing output going to team.

4) This on top of having resources nerfed.

 

Healing "buffed"? Considering only expertise maybe.... considering 1.2 sorc and other changes..... Noe-pp. Incoming mar/sent rerolls and subsequent QQ storm about them on the forums.

 

Not to mention we have one interrupt with a long cooldown and one stun worth anything in PvP if spec'd healing...and again, that stun has a long cd. Whirlwind might as well not exist if you have the full cast time on it...a rarity you can get it off. Seriously. Corruption sorcs and their sage coutnerparts are hosed in 1.2 if there are no changes to what I'm reading. As it is, even in mostly BM gear, you spend most of your time healing yourself and getting ff'd or stunlocked. What more is needed to "nerf" healing than givnig us almost no tools to stop people from casting at us or escape them and then sticking us in light armor and making all our heals (except one) stationary casts? Corruption Sorcerer = TOR Target Dummy ALREADY. It's about to get worse. Much worse.

 

Oh, but wait...you still need extrication to get those easy huttball scores? Screwjob. Yuo'll be seeing a lot more lightning and madness spec'd sorcerers who used to heal if this happens and guess what? That will lead to new complaints to nerf sorcerer dps specs and the nerf-feeback-loop will continue unabated.

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You also get 23-24% more damage reduction.

 

Think bro, think.

 

 

You forget he is a healer, he presses his 1 button, or his 2 button, or his 3 button, and can't be killed while healing allies causing his team to win the game...he is too good to think.

 

 

 

 

 

If this expertise/15% healing buff is true then I'm so out of here and anyone who wants my account can have it lol. :rolleyes: Because if that is the case there is no point to playing any class or spec other than healing, literally no point.

Edited by MrXen
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You forget he is a healer, he presses his 1 button, or his 2 button, or his 3 button, and can't be killed while healing allies causing his team to win the game...he is too good to think.

 

 

 

 

 

If this expertise/15% healing buff is true then I'm so out of here and anyone who wants my account can have it lol. :rolleyes: Because if that is the case there is no point to playing any class or spec other than healing, literally no point.

 

Good Luck planting a bomb with only heal specced classes.

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Except your instant hot gives your quick heal an effective crit chance of 100%.

 

Thus for a sorc:

 

1.2 Resurgence->DH will heal for more on average than 1.1.5 REsurgence->DI while taking the same amount of time to cast, and consuming less of your force resource.

 

You're chance for a 'critted burst' goes away, but your average healing goes up.

 

The only real loss thats sorc healers suffered was the fix to double-tapping DI, which was needed, and now consumption will take your health every time, which was needed.

 

But then again, Sorcs feel that maybe their QQing can make their class OP again, just like QQing got these changes.

 

Except if you're using that crit quick heal instead of one of the other ones, you're an idiot. Your math is wrong. It will not beat a crit of DI and it won't beat Innervate crits.

 

Nobody is disagreeing wih the double tap fix...that was not working as intended and isn't part of the conversation about what people are reasonable concerned about.

 

What makes you think Sorc HEALERS were OP? Depending on the WZ they frequently get beat on the healing chart. Huttball is not as good for us as classes that can run around healing at the same time. We wear light armor. All our casts are stationary except one. We get focus fired and destroyed fairly quickly without the survivability of other healers. We have very little in the way of crowd control powers, interrupts or the ability to escape. We can barely kill any of te other classes unless we win a long drawn-out battle of attrition and don't do much dmg overall in any event. So tell us...what was OP about sorc HEALERS?

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Yeah seriously, how do half the people out there not realise healers benefit from Expertise SO much more?

 

i wasn't aware that non-healers couldn't receive heals from healers. interesting, maybe they can balance everything by letting healers target non-healers for their heal spells...

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i wasn't aware that non-healers couldn't receive heals from healers. interesting, maybe they can balance everything by letting healers target non-healers for their heal spells...

 

I would appreciate that, because I sure could use some heals in WZs.

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Good Luck planting a bomb with only heal specced classes.

 

 

Good luck planting it with a DPS team fighting them. :rolleyes: See how that works?

 

 

Heal team can't be killed and can slowly wear dps down freely as they please (eventual win).

 

 

 

DPS can't stop a heal team in anyway. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

Which is more useful to play?

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Except your instant hot gives your quick heal an effective crit chance of 100%.

 

Thus for a sorc:

 

1.2 Resurgence->DH will heal for more on average than 1.1.5 REsurgence->DI while taking the same amount of time to cast, and consuming less of your force resource.

 

You're chance for a 'critted burst' goes away, but your average healing goes up.

 

The only real loss thats sorc healers suffered was the fix to double-tapping DI, which was needed, and now consumption will take your health every time, which was needed.

 

But then again, Sorcs feel that maybe their QQing can make their class OP again, just like QQing got these changes.

 

So I'm to understand that spending time to HoT (which is already on a cooldown) then using a quicker but highly force-inefficient heal that CRITS for 2k is better than my 4.3k crit heal, 2800 non-crit heal as it stands? I can't spam the lower value heal because, while it's quicker, it in no way comes close to healing, it merely slows down the target's health loss (no upward movement at all) and runs me out of force MUCH quicker. I can't tell you the last time I bothered with the weenie heal. And now, I'm going to watch those awesome 1.2k non-crit heals while waiting to blow a GCD on a useless HoT (that is also wasteful of force) so I can heal for 1/2 to 1/4 as much while having no real way to regen force without killing myself?

 

LOL. Play a healer.

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Huttball is not as good for us as classes that can run around healing at the same time.

Mercenaries can't run around and heal at the same time either. In fact, they're worse at it than Sorcs are.

 

We wear light armor.

Sorcs overrate the value of heavier armor. Operatives are significantly squishier than Sorcs because they don't have anything equivalent to a Static Barrier. Mercenaries' survivability mostly comes from Energy Shield, which lasts 12 seconds and has a 2 minute cooldown.

 

All our casts are stationary except one.

Again, Mercenaries aren't any better off than you are.

 

We get focus fired and destroyed fairly quickly without the survivability of other healers.

Your survivability is better than Operatives'. All classes die quickly when focus-fired.

 

We have very little in the way of crowd control powers, interrupts or the ability to escape.

You have significantly more of those things than the other two healing classes.

 

We can barely kill any of te other classes unless we win a long drawn-out battle of attrition and don't do much dmg overall in any event.

The same applies to all healers. Sorc healers actually do more damage than Merc or Op healers.

Edited by Dzhokhar
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Now that I think about it more I think we are saying the same exact thing. I'm just canceling out the damage with the damage reduction and then adding the heal. While you are canceling out the damage with the heal and adding the DR. (3-2)+5 = (5-2)+3

 

I suppose what it comes down to is no matter how you reorder it it all falls the same. being a healing class (with the current expertise model) will exponentially increase your survivability as expertise gets higher and higher.

 

Even without the healing increase to expertise at all. healing would still grow faster than damage.

 

25% expertise on all players without healing bonus

Victim health = 150

DPS hits for 100*1.25 = 125 damage.

Victim takes 125*0.75 = 93.75 damage

Victim health = 56.25

Victim heals for 100

Victim health = 156.25

 

Yeah, that's just it. We're agreeing (mostly) but just viewing it differently.

 

I'm analyzing each aspect of expertise separately whereas you're tending to lump the healing and mitigation portion of expertise together and label it all as "healing." I would agree that they both contribute to the same thing, but I would label that animal "survivability."

 

I think this is what bothers me and others most. Healers (especially with the guard mechanic) are some of the hardest to kill characters in PVP if not the hardest. The increase to expertise will just make them even more durable.

 

Yeah, I definitely get that. But I'd like to point out that a DPS player can have the guard mechanic on them while being healed by their healer. On a team, the healer isn't able to survive any better than any other member unless they prioritize healing on themselves, and the tank prioritizes putting guard on the healer. This is a tactical decision, though, and is not an inherent factor in a healer's survivability.

 

Does this tactical decision get made more often than not? Hell yeah! How many healers and how many DPS players are usually on a team? 2 healers 6 DPS is pretty standard; when this is the case, it naturally makes sense that the healers and tanks prioritize healing and guarding the class archetype that the team has fewer of. What do you think would happen if it was the other way around? 6 DPS players and 2 healers? I know I sure as hell would focus way more on making sure our two DPS players don't die than I would focus on keeping myself/another healer alive.

 

There's always another way to look at something, but I find that analyzing factors individually to determine how they all contribute to the overall picture to be more useful than trying to look at the whole picture at one time. It's easy to add everything up in the end! :D

 

On a side note, I vote that our back and forth over the past couple of pages is stickied as a demonstration of how to not spew useless drivel back at other people on the intrawebz!

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Except if you're using that crit quick heal instead of one of the other ones, you're an idiot. Your math is wrong. It will not beat a crit of DI and it won't beat Innervate crits.

 

Nobody is disagreeing wih the double tap fix...that was not working as intended and isn't part of the conversation about what people are reasonable concerned about.

 

What makes you think Sorc HEALERS were OP? Depending on the WZ they frequently get beat on the healing chart. Huttball is not as good for us as classes that can run around healing at the same time. We wear light armor. All our casts are stationary except one. We get focus fired and destroyed fairly quickly without the survivability of other healers. We have very little in the way of crowd control powers, interrupts or the ability to escape. We can barely kill any of te other classes unless we win a long drawn-out battle of attrition and don't do much dmg overall in any event. So tell us...what was OP about sorc HEALERS?

 

Apparently you can't comprehend what I said, so I will put it in easier terms.

 

A quick heal with a guaranteed chance to crit is better than a nuke heal with a ~37% chance to crit. The math has been done and proven.

 

Unless you've never done any serious pvp, then you might think that sorcs get beat all the time, but a sorc healer who tries will never get beat, especially outside of huttball. You might light armor, but you have also get damage reduction and a bubble with a quick recast, that you can cast on whoever you want. You get focus fired because you have the highest healing output, which isn't the case anymore, because Op healers got a buff, and you lost some sustain with your resource pool.

 

Don't even try to talk about how bad your CC is. I mean really, don't even start to talk. My main is an Op healer hybrid, and I dream about getting an AoE knockback, a ranged stun, 2 ranged slows, a ranged interupt, and force speed. So really, just forget any argument about how bad your CC/utility is, because you lost that battle before you even started to type a response.

 

As a healer, you're not supposed to just burn down other classes, thats common sense, and if you think otherwise, then you fail and conceptualization.

In your current hybrid spec you have the highest damage output in pvp right now. I hear stories and see screenshots of sorc doing over 1 million damage when no other class that I have ever seen can even break 800k. So, EL OH EL if you think your damage output is 'low.'

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Yeah, that's just it. We're agreeing (mostly) but just viewing it differently.

 

I'm analyzing each aspect of expertise separately whereas you're tending to lump the healing and mitigation portion of expertise together and label it all as "healing." I would agree that they both contribute to the same thing, but I would label that animal "survivability."

 

 

 

Yeah, I definitely get that. But I'd like to point out that a DPS player can have the guard mechanic on them while being healed by their healer. On a team, the healer isn't able to survive any better than any other member unless they prioritize healing on themselves, and the tank prioritizes putting guard on the healer. This is a tactical decision, though, and is not an inherent factor in a healer's survivability.

 

Does this tactical decision get made more often than not? Hell yeah! How many healers and how many DPS players are usually on a team? 2 healers 6 DPS is pretty standard; when this is the case, it naturally makes sense that the healers and tanks prioritize healing and guarding the class archetype that the team has fewer of. What do you think would happen if it was the other way around? 6 DPS players and 2 healers? I know I sure as hell would focus way more on making sure our two DPS players don't die than I would focus on keeping myself/another healer alive.

 

There's always another way to look at something, but I find that analyzing factors individually to determine how they all contribute to the overall picture to be more useful than trying to look at the whole picture at one time. It's easy to add everything up in the end! :D

 

On a side note, I vote that our back and forth over the past couple of pages is stickied as a demonstration of how to not spew useless drivel back at other people on the intrawebz!

 

In your perfect analysis, one should ask the question: if the healer becomes a barely mobile immovable rock and has no value other than as a dps sink, what use is he? He surely won't be healing his team much - at least now I can throw out the occasional heal if the other team loses focus on me.

 

The point regarding keeping the dps alive is moot if I am focused to the point that I am only paying attention to myself. And then dying anyway.

 

We aren't going to agree - I don't think healers should HAVE to decide whether they live or someone else does - that renders choice moot. If I live, the dps doesn't. If I don't, neither of us do. Not a choice at all (given a 2v2 environment).

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So I'm to understand that spending time to HoT (which is already on a cooldown) then using a quicker but highly force-inefficient heal that CRITS for 2k is better than my 4.3k crit heal, 2800 non-crit heal as it stands? I can't spam the lower value heal because, while it's quicker, it in no way comes close to healing, it merely slows down the target's health loss (no upward movement at all) and runs me out of force MUCH quicker. I can't tell you the last time I bothered with the weenie heal. And now, I'm going to watch those awesome 1.2k non-crit heals while waiting to blow a GCD on a useless HoT (that is also wasteful of force) so I can heal for 1/2 to 1/4 as much while having no real way to regen force without killing myself?

 

LOL. Play a healer.

 

Just another QQ sorc who can't read. I mean really, do any of the sorc players understand math? I guess now, because you are all probably just children who were attracked to the shiny lightning. But that's besides the point.

 

The current best burst heal rotation is:

Resurgence->DI

 

Ask any 'pro' sorc healer, they will confirm this.

 

The thing is, with 1.2, resurgence doesn't make DI a 1.5s cast, but it does give DH a 100% chance to crit.

 

A DH with a guaranteed chance to crit heals for more than a 1.5s cast DI with a ~37% chacne to crit. Do the math. Also, resurgence->DH will consume less power than teh current resurgence-DI rotation.

 

Now really, read the above information.

 

Read it a couple of times.

 

Because you will find that the logic that is present is good, truthful logic.

And you will realize that you sacrificed a chance for a burst heal, for a guarnanteed sustaining heal.

And you will also realize that the only losses you suffered was that happend was the loss of double-tapping, and the fact that consumption will take your health every time: both of which were needed.

 

Thus, resurgence->DH will take the place of the current resurgence->DI rotation.

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Good luck planting it with a DPS team fighting them. :rolleyes: See how that works?

 

 

Heal team can't be killed and can slowly wear dps down freely as they please (eventual win).

 

 

 

DPS can't stop a heal team in anyway. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

Which is more useful to play?

 

The team that isn't specced for healing will be able to use the base heals to out heal the damage that the heal specced healers do.

 

So its a tie. Logic is good.

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In your perfect analysis, one should ask the question: if the healer becomes a barely mobile immovable rock and has no value other than as a dps sink, what use is he? He surely won't be healing his team much - at least now I can throw out the occasional heal if the other team loses focus on me.

 

The point regarding keeping the dps alive is moot if I am focused to the point that I am only paying attention to myself. And then dying anyway.

 

We aren't going to agree - I don't think healers should HAVE to decide whether they live or someone else does - that renders choice moot. If I live, the dps doesn't. If I don't, neither of us do. Not a choice at all (given a 2v2 environment).

 

You're argument assumes that the dps on your team is just standing there twiddling his thumbs. By the time that you actually die, your dps friend will have already killed one of the two dps that is beating on you and will have severly injured the other one. Meaning if you let yourself die, he will win, or if you let him die, you can kill the other opponent before he kills you.

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Somehow I doubt the expertise number is going to get boosted by so much. And seeing as how that thread got deleted off of sith warrior... I'm starting to think people just got trolled.

 

Even if it is boosted so diminishing returns happen at a much higher value, the healing nerfs are going to absolutely demolish sub-50 healers, new 50 healers, and PvE healers. Not everybody is a full BM yet.

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snip

[/Quote]

 

I think right now its not as big a deal Guard does make it more potent true. And while a guarded healer / tank combo is near unkillable for 2 equivalent dps I think its the 20% and higher expertise people fear (I know I do) At 12% maybe even 15% its workable. But already like I said. People complain about the durability of healers. What happens when expertise reaches 30 even 40 percent? On top of splitting all damage taken it will just snowball at that point IMHO.

 

 

On a side note, I vote that our back and forth over the past couple of pages is stickied as a demonstration of how to not spew useless drivel back at other people on the intrawebz!

It is refreshing to have a difference in opinion with a person without them forgetting they left the caps-lock on and accidentally putting *<-- stars in their post all over the place. :D

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A quick heal with a guaranteed chance to crit is better than a nuke heal with a ~37% chance to crit. The math has been done and proven.

 

The following math assumes Trauma is taken into account. I also am not logged in so don't have exact numbers, but it's in the right ballpark. This is also in full Battlemaster except for a Rakata belt. (This is relevant because spell coefficients come in to play).

 

Dark heal

1.5s cast. Heals for 1.2k regular -> Crit with 75% surge -> 2100 healed.

 

Dark Infusion

2.5s cast. Heals for 2700 -> Crith with 75% surge -> 4725 healed.

 

Do I need to finish the analysis? I guess I should.

 

Resurgence buff currently gives:

-1s cast time to Dark Infusion meaning a 1.5s cast for 2700 healing

Less mana cost on Dark Heal (I want to say 60%).

 

Currently, with an assumed 35% crit chance:

Dark Infusion of 2700 critting 35% of the time for 4725 = (0.35*4725) + (0.65*2700) = 3409 Expected healing in 1.5s.

 

After patch, again with assumed 35% crit chance, and now using Dark Heal instead of Dark Infusion:

Dark Heal of 1200 critting 35%+60% of the time for 2100 = (0.95*2100) + (0.05*1200) = 2055.

 

2055/3409 = 60%.

 

Yep, that means the burst heal provided by the resurgence proc after patch 1.2 is now only 60% of the current amount. Whoever did your math, I suspect, was using base heal amounts which didn't take +heal and coefficients into account.

 

Also...

 

I hear stories and see screenshots of sorc doing over 1 million damage when no other class that I have ever seen can even break 800k. So, EL OH EL if you think your damage output is 'low.'

 

(Mostly) pointless scoreboard fluffy is (mostly) pointless.

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