Where's the nerf?

[knatx]

Below is the actual patch notes for us in 1.2.

 

Operative

Due to changes to Operative skill trees, Operatives have had their skill points refunded.

Backstab now has a 12-second cooldown and deals approximately 5% more damage.

Hidden Strike now has a 7.5-second cooldown.

Sleep Dart now gives an appropriate error message if used on Droids.

Tactical Advantage no longer triggers a “grunt effect” when it occurs.

 

 

Concealment

Culling has been redesigned and is now a 2-point skill. It no longer increases damage dealt to poisoned targets, but increases the Energy gained by Stim Boost and the damage dealt by Laceration and Collateral Strike.

Inclement Conditioning is now a 2-point skill.

Flanking is a new 1-point skill located in Tier 3 of the skill tree. It reduces the Energy cost of Backstab by 5.

Laceration now costs 10 Energy (down from 15) and deals approximately 10% less damage.

Meticulously Kept Blades no longer increases Energy gained by Stim Boost. This effect is now part of Culling.

Waylay now increases the damage dealt by Backstab. It is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree and requires Flanking.

 

Medicine

Medical Consult now also increases the duration of Tactical Advantage by 2 seconds per point.

Medical Therapy now additionally reduces the Energy cost of Recuperative Nanotech by 2 per point.

Patient Studies now additionally increases the speed at which Diagnostic Scan channels by 15% per point.

Recuperative Nanotech has been rebalanced. It now has a 15-second cooldown, heals over 6 seconds, and heals for approximately 10% more than before.

Surgical Precision now additionally increases the maximum stack limit of Tactical Advantage by 1.

 

Lethality (Operative)

Corrosive Microbes now functions correctly.

Lethality now increases critical chance by 1% per point.

Razor Edge now increases Shiv damage by 4% per point.

Weakening Blast no longer has an Energy cost.

 

Where are the nerfs? The red is my doing. Seems to me we got buffed.

Edited March 18, 2012 by knatx

[tacito]

Let me redirect you over here. I'm currently not sure whether it's a nerf or not, but I'd be surprised if it's a buff. Best thing that could happen is that we might break even.

[zaknaphein]

haha. The worst enemy is the one you consider your friend !

 

This applies to the wall of text you showed.

[Ahebish]

Below is the actual patch notes for us in 1.2.

 

 

 

Where are the nerfs? The red is my doing. Seems to me we got buffed.

 

Pre-nerf - Backstab - 9 second CD ---> 12 second CD (DPS nerf)

 

Pre-nerf - Backstab - 0 energy cost ----> 5 energy/use (energy nerf)

 

Laceration - 10% damage reduction ----> the 5 energy used for backstab was removed from lacerate (Front end and DPS nerf)

 

Pre-nerf - Shiv - 2% damage nerf ----> loss of 2% damage (front end damage and DPS nerf)

 

pre-nerf -Hidden Strike - with a 2 min CD can no longer be used as an opener - now has a 7.5-second cooldown - (Front end damage nerf)

 

 

In short, Our spike was nerf'd and our sustainable DPS.

 

The buff you are reading is for heal spec ops/snipers.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Ahebish

[Ginnem]

Razor Edge now increases Shiv damage by 4% per point.

 

You might want to go back and actually see what the talent does now before calling this a "buff".

Edited March 18, 2012 by Ginnem

[Ahebish]

Since you highlighted this as a buff, you might want to go back and actually see what the talent does now.

 

No it's not

 

it was 5% per point now it's 4%

 

thus a 2% damage nerf

Edited March 18, 2012 by Ahebish

[Ginnem]

No it's not

 

it was 5% per point now it's 4%

 

thus a 2% damage nerf

 

That was my point.

[Ahebish]

That was my point.

 

Yep. I just wanted to clarify it to the illiterate who can't do mathamucashun.

[knatx]

Pre-nerf - Backstab - 9 second CD ---> 12 second CD (DPS nerf)

And got a 5% buff in damage, not including what damage waylay will add on top of the 5%.

 

Pre-nerf - Backstab - 0 energy cost ----> 5 energy/use (energy nerf)

Without waylay its 10 energy, so the energy use got reduced.

 

Laceration - 10% damage reduction ----> the 5 energy used for backstab was removed from lacerate (Front end and DPS nerf)

And culling will increase its damage.

[Ahebish]

And got a 5% buff in damage, not including what damage waylay will add on top of the 5%.

 

Without waylay its 10 energy, so the energy use got reduced.

 

And culling will increase its damage.

 

Your mathamucashun is flawed

 

backstab used to cost 0 energy, now costs 5.

 

The 5 extra energy from lacerate was applied as a negative towards backstab.

 

Now factor in longer CD on back stab (how much damage over time did we lose because of that?)

 

Now factor in 15 energy Acid blade + 5 energy backstabs that's 20% of our energy pool. Thus translates to an energy nerf.

 

5% increase on backstab now factor in the -10% on lacerate and the -2% on shiv that leaves a 7% damage nerf unaccounted for via talents.

 

How much will culling increase it? Wanna bet it ain't 7% not including the DPS loss from backstab?

 

Once again L2Math before you try rebuttle against something as basic as math.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Ahebish

[tharnvedra]

Could anybody link me the list of new utility skills we get please?

[Ahebish]

Could anybody link me the list of new utility skills we get please?

 

We have utility skills?

[Shroudveil]

We have utility skills?

 

ofc we do but they are hidden.

 

you need to go to options->logout->select your assassin and log him

[knatx]

Your mathamucashun is flawed

 

backstab used to cost 0 energy, now costs 5.

 

The 5 extra energy from lacerate was applied as a negative towards backstab.

 

Now factor in longer CD on back stab (how much damage over time did we lose because of that?)

 

Now factor in 15 energy Acid blade + 5 energy backstabs that's 20% of our energy pool. Thus translates to an energy nerf.

 

5% increase on backstab now factor in the -10% on lacerate and the -2% on shiv that leaves a 7% damage nerf unaccounted for via talents.

 

How much will culling increase it? Wanna bet it ain't 7% not including the DPS loss from backstab?

 

Once again L2Math before you try rebuttle against something as basic as math.

http://www.torhead.com/ability/bLxkw1J/backstab

 

As I said backstab WITHOUT waylay is 10 energy.

 

As far as energy nerf:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=364399

 

It helps to read.

[shaguar]

lmao @topic:

 

either

 

l2p the class

 

or

 

l2read

 

 

then u will see the nerfs, i can tell.

[Manigma]

Below is the actual patch notes for us in 1.2.

 

 

 

Where are the nerfs? The red is my doing. Seems to me we got buffed.

If you honestly believe it was a buff, you probably don't even play an operative, or perhaps you have a lvl 10 imp. agent or something and don't understand what skills they are referring to.

[Neliok]

honestly i don't see this as a huge problem either, 2% damage off of shiv boohoo we go from 2200 dmg to 2000 crit wow big woop

 

5 energy backstab on a 12 second CD is the same thing as 0 energy backstab on a 9 second CD because there is an extra 3 seconds to regen energy for it and acid blades next use, as acid blade could be pretty ****in energy intensive id say that helps us

 

as for the people that think they nerfed stim boost, where did you read that false information? they took the buff to it out of one talent and put it in another one oh darn such a nerf

 

and the 7.5 seconds on hiddenstrike? you should get used to using vanish as a tool of resetting a fight anyway not HS vanish HS immediately wasting your **** card

 

while their is a slight nerf tbh with the increased dmg on backstab in appearance it will still = the same damage as a 9 second CD so they really didnt need to change it at all but this isnt as big a nerf as people are complaining about so much

Edited March 18, 2012 by Neliok

[Fearine]

 

As I said backstab WITHOUT waylay is 10 energy.

 

 

Why people are trying to judge a change as a buff or a nerf by examining only one specific scenario? (No wayly, no probe etc)

Ok and if I find someone without armour I am gonna kill him in 1 sec. I am buffed now?

 

The buff/nerf can be called by examining the limits of the class in a specific domain.

 

After 1.2 the DPS limits of Operative will be reduced. No matter what rotation,approach you take.

 

Will they change something in other domains to compensate for it? Like mobility,survivability etc? No.

 

So the class is getting nerfed. Fair/unfair, good/bad, small/big does not matter. Its getting nerfed.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Fearine

[rhaul]

honestly i don't see this as a huge problem either, 2% damage off of shiv boohoo we go from 2200 dmg to 2000 crit wow big woop

 

5 energy backstab on a 12 second CD is the same thing as 0 energy backstab on a 12 second CD because there is an extra 3 seconds to regen energy for it and acid blades next use, as acid blade could be pretty ****in energy intensive id say that helps us

 

as for the people that think they nerfed stim boost, where did you read that false information? they took the buff to it out of one talent and put it in another one oh darn such a nerf

 

and the 7.5 seconds on hiddenstrike? you should get used to using vanish as a tool of resetting a fight anyway not HS vanish HS immediately wasting your **** card

 

while their is a slight nerf tbh with the increased dmg on backstab in appearance it will still = the same damage as a 9 second CD so they really didnt need to change it at all but this isnt as big a nerf as people are complaining about so much

 

 

/facepalm

 

Please stop posting, you obviously don't know what your talking about.

[Sookster]

The backstab changes also affects non-concealment operatives, as a healing operative doing Belsavis/Ilum dailies, it'll be very annoying to wait 3 seconds longer for a backstab and do slightly less damage with shiv. At least I have Vector and Temple geared the heck out, they both do nice damage.... until devs start nerfing companions.

 

Most of the changes to each class are in relative to pvp, they're not taking pve into consideration and with pyro changes for my merc, it'll make pve fights just a little longer with a little more heat management issues (and sometimes difficult due to lack of an interrupt ability). Concealment operatives after 1.1.2 aren't very good in hardmodes/operations, this'll just put the last nail in the coffin for that particular spec.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Sookster

[Spatzimaus]

Without waylay its 10 energy, so the energy use got reduced.

 

Wait, your argument is that going from 10 energy (0 with a tier-3 Talent) to post-patch 10 energy (5 with a tier-3 talent) is a reduction in cost, and that it's okay to count the new talent but not the old one? I think that's one of the stupidest things I've read today, and that's saying a lot.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Spatzimaus

[Ahebish]

The backstab changes also affects non-concealment operatives, as a healing operative doing Belsavis/Ilum dailies, it'll be very annoying to wait 3 seconds longer for a backstab and do slightly less damage with shiv. At least I have Vector and Temple geared the heck out, they both do nice damage.... until devs start nerfing companions.

 

Most of the changes to each class are in relative to pvp, they're not taking pve into consideration and with pyro changes for my merc, it'll make pve fights just a little longer with a little more heat management issues (and sometimes difficult due to lack of an interrupt ability). Concealment operatives after 1.1.2 aren't very good in hardmodes/operations, this'll just put the last nail in the coffin for that particular spec.

 

You know it's bad when your companion has more primary damage than you do.

[texasfanboy]

If you only look at a single Backstab in a vacuum, this looks like a buff.

 

Unfortunately, operations bosses don't go down in a single Backstab. Let's look at a 5 minute encounter.

 

Currently, in that time, you can Backstab 33 times. Let's say it does 1800 on a non-crit.

 

33 * 1800 = 59400

 

After the patch, in 5 minutes, you'll only be able to Backstab 25 times.

1800 + %5 = 1890

1890 * 25 = 47250

 

Total damage lost over 5 minutes: 12150

 

Overall, that's a %20 nerf.

 

I don't know exactly what the new talents give in terms of bonuses (they're listed in other threads), but I do remember it being single digit. I want to say it's only %3. %3 more damage on Backstab isn't going to offset the loss of all those Backstabs we won't be doing.

 

But it gets worse. 8 fewer Backstabs also means 8 fewer Acid Blade DoTs. At 1700 per application, that's 13600 more damage lost.

 

If the math under the hood doesn't change, this is a significant nerf. Every ability will be hitting for less damage except Backstab, and Backstab will be used %24 less often than it is now due to the cooldown increase.

 

In addition, we lose the bonus damage for attackign a poisoned target, and we will be critting less.

 

But...in PVE, we're the lowest DPS spec. Why would they nerf us this significantly?

 

One of the following is going on:

1) They fail at math

2) They don't intend for the spec to be used in PVE

3) They're offsetting some of the "under the hood" changes they've mentioned. I'd like to explore that, since I've yet to see a real analysis of what these could be.

 

They've reference "under the hood" changes before, but won't state explicitly what those changes are. They've implied that part of it will involve diminishing returns, but I'm guessing it goes deeper that that.

 

We're not the only spec whose across-the-board crit bonus talent is getting nerfed. Mercs got the same change (I don't know if other classes have similar talents). This could mean that they're adjusting for new item budgets, or that they're altering the rating-per-percent formula, and this nerf is just to offset the change. So we gain X crit% from the under-the-hood change, and lose %2 crit from talents.

 

Or, they want everyone having less crit than they have now. This is a very real possibility.

 

What if other stats are being tweaked? What if we're gaining more damage from Tech Power, Power, Cunning, etc? The optimist in me would like to hope that we're losing damage on the visible end because we're gaining more damage from stats. That's the one thing the patch notes don't spell out for us -- they say there are changes to the combat system, but not what they are.

 

Has anyone been able to test this stuff at level cap? Any operatives participating in the high-end guild testing? Anyone got an Op to level cap in PTS? This would be great to know.

[GeoLager]

The backstab nerf is just a slap in the face.

 

In order to compensate us for it, they'd need to increase backstab damage and acid blade damage each by 20%.

[Ahebish]

After 4 nerf'd it's hard to be optimistic.

 

Did I cancel my sub... yes I did. I'm beyond miffed about the nerf's at least give us a reason other than sorcs said it was needed.

 

some #'s as to why it was needed, or is it to account for the new gear.

 

Because here's a factor you didn't consider in your math

 

They increased Expertise to 20% reduction

 

Factor that into your damage numbers

 

As I said PVE is PVE we will burn out of energy and hit a CD/energy wall

 

it's inevitable.

 

But if it happens in PVP we are dead it's just that simple.

 

Considering fights rarely last longer than 20-30 seconds.

 

That's why I prefer to see PVP damage numbers testing since me personally PVE doesn't matter.

 

I'm the lowest DPS in my 16man NM runs and I'll continue to be a non factor to the best of my ability.

 

But in PVP it matters a lot. And PVP is very very difficult to predict the outcomes and possible situations.

 

Which is why PVE heros need to keep their noses in PVE, and let the PVP'ers worry about PVP.

 

And I'm refering to the people who said I'm tired of getting 2-3 shotted by concealments yet I have 11k hp and should own a BM concealment operative because I'm so good.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Ahebish