Optimism Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Well at least healing just got a whole lot easier for operatives.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I agree that as a Combat Medic these changes look really bad. I'd be irate except for one thing... this was a release to PTS and not to Live. It's nothing to cancel over yet and can (and most hopefully will) be changed. They have in fact copied some 50s over to test the endgame content - it just was by application/invitation and not available to everybody. They are also working on Character Copy (in general but also to the PTS) so ************ that it isn't ready yet is just that. I don't like the changes. I will create a Combat Medic and begin leveling on the PTS (wanted the Titles anyway ) to test out how this impacts things at lower levels. I will provide feedback based on actual experience. Then I will wait and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 I actually agree with your points... And most of them are valid complains that have nothing to do with the patch changes. Except 4. Being able to heal for ever is not a good mechanic. It leads to sloppy DPS. If our resources do not run out as healers, then we can take 40 mins to kill a single boss. We would be able to cover deficiencies in other classes too well, and that would be a problem when they develop future content. We would be back to extreme enrage timers, and other things that can unbalance the game as well. That's why they have enrage timers. Being able to cast forever (if played right) doesn't say anything about your HPS. I'll still wait to play the actual game before crying foul. Theorycrafting, yes, the changes look bad. And they look worse for the merc/comm than they look for the sorc/sages. Sorc sages still have their large pool and constant regen (albeit higher costs). Anyway, I'll wait to see what happens. But it's too early to say that healing was destroyed... It isn't to early to ask them to rethink massive and uncalled for nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 I agree that as a Combat Medic these changes look really bad. I'd be irate except for one thing... this was a release to PTS and not to Live. It's nothing to cancel over yet and can (and most hopefully will) be changed. When they hit Live it is too late to protest. The time to protest is now, to keep them from going live. They have in fact copied some 50s over to test the endgame content - it just was by application/invitation and not available to everybody. They are also working on Character Copy (in general but also to the PTS) so ************ that it isn't ready yet is just that. It is a perfectly valid complaint. If they want feedback, they need to make it possible to test what needs testing. Sure they are working on it, and once they let us do it we will stop complaining about it. Until then, it is perfectly reasonable. I don't like the changes. I will create a Combat Medic and begin leveling on the PTS (wanted the Titles anyway ) to test out how this impacts things at lower levels. I will provide feedback based on actual experience. Then I will wait and see what happens. I intend to start leveling one on PTS as well. Time will tell if I can actually test any endgame before they release it, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raximillian Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 That's why they have enrage timers. Being able to cast forever (if played right) doesn't say anything about your HPS. It isn't to early to ask them to rethink massive and uncalled for nerfs. Actually, it is a bit too early. Let them gather data... Rome wasn't built in a day you know... Theorycrafting is good, but it can never fully replicate real life (or real game in this case). Let them gather some data and adjust accordingly. You are just stressing yourself out over something that has not fully panned out yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonusDHV Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Actually, it is a bit too early. Let them gather data... Rome wasn't built in a day you know... Theorycrafting is good, but it can never fully replicate real life (or real game in this case). Let them gather some data and adjust accordingly. You are just stressing yourself out over something that has not fully panned out yet. The problem is that you are relying on a "small?" pool of testers? How many 50's did they copy to the PTS? How many are Troopers? How many are Commando's? How many are specced full CM? Now you need to have the CM's healing in HM's and OP's.... Do you think that they will be getting a large enough data pool from that? I hope so.... But I don't see that in reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raximillian Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 The problem is that you are relying on a "small?" pool of testers? How many 50's did they copy to the PTS? How many are Troopers? How many are Commando's? How many are specced full CM? Now you need to have the CM's healing in HM's and OP's.... Do you think that they will be getting a large enough data pool from that? I hope so.... But I don't see that in reality. No, they won't all the data they need, but that affects any test done to a small percentage. They can get an statistically sound number though, and balance on that to start with. Then throw the changes out live, and balance some more. It's impossible to get 100% accurate data from a small percentage, but that's just how stuff works. I'm sure BW is not trying to "break" the game, or "punish" healers or anything like that. So let's see how it comes out, and now that we have combat logs, we will be able to do better theorycrafting, and actually see how good/broken they are after the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germil Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Decently played, a BH and a sorc could really heal for ever without much problem. I do not think that is the design of the game, we should not be able to heal for ever. So that is ok. Well, it's ok, as long as BW also balances ops and FP to the new resource regen rates. If they match it all up, then the game could even be better than before. Commando : of course we can heal forever, but not a maximum throughput. Thats the trade off of limited pools. By increasing our standard rotation cost by more than 30%, this translate directly in a 30% throughput reduction. I can't see myself being viable in PVP or PVE with such a reduction. I rarely complain in forums (I play MMOs for some time). But I don't recall I have ever seen lots of nerf of this magnitude before. It is also the first time I leave a game because of "balance" changes. It is not the changes by themselfs, they will revert them partly eventually (they have to here). It is that I have lost any faith in BW to design a coherent, challenging, balanced game. Knowing that classe abilities and mechanims are quite simples here, (lots of similarities, shared concepts between the classes), it says a lot on the game designers competencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazeraine Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I totally agree with the OP. I normally don't post my opinions in the forums, but I feel the healer changes warrant every voice available to get it through to the devs that it doesn't look good. I have a cap level Combat Medic. Could I work around the changes? With a lot of reworking in my rotation and ammo management, most likely. Will I want to? Probably not. It totally kills ammo management and decreases the viability of being a desired healer. Have I physically tested it? No. I don't have the time to play on PTS and level a seperate commando in the time it takes before 1.2 will come out. But doing number crunching, it doesn't look pretty. From personal experiences and observations. Commandos and Scoundrels were about on par with each other at the 50 brackets. Sages had capabilities to look fantastic in pvp, but were not too OP in pve. With the new changes, it looks like scoundrels will be the new preffered healer now. Combat medics will have then have been tossed to the side and I'm not sure how Sages/sorcs will fare yet. Can current Combat Medics be powerful? Of course, with gear and skill. Though, what class wouldn't be powerful with skill and gear? I can't add anything more than what's been stated already in some previous posts in the Commando forums. While unsubbing over this is a bit extreme, it isn't exactly something I'm personally happy about. Edit: I did think of something to mention. I've seen a huge revamp of skills before. SWG did the huge Combat Revamp that was heralded as the patch that was going to save the game... Instead it killed it. This isn't as wide-spread as that, but it's pretty close. Players get used to a feel of the game and then drastic changes of this scale tend to ruin the feel of the game. At this rate, I doubt us mentioning this will make them change their mind about this healer "ballance". After over 10 years of MMOs, I have learned that the staff will do what they please regardless of a level of discontent that we're voicing. I have watched a few MMOs go down the tubes because the staff didn't listen to the community on issues as close to home as this. I will add, if this becomes another SWG style Combat Revamp, I'll be out of here in a heartbeat and not look back at all (and this "balance" patch is looking an aweful lot like the infamous CR of SWG) Edited March 18, 2012 by Mazeraine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovjohn Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Whoever is in charge of "balancing" healing classes is terrible at his job. If I were a developer, had seen such an awesome "Healing Request Compilation" made from my players, and then given them... these changes... I wouldn't sleep at night from shame. It appears such issues do not exist in EA / Bioware! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeon Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I can't agree more! I've unsub'd just to send that message loud and clear. Combat Medic's were already underpowered, these changes listed in 1.2 just push them further down the hole. I said as much in my unsub notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soltrooper Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 The thing is that it won't change much for troopers in PVP - the primary regen in PVP is the fact that so much time is spent stunned/moving. It will nerf the burst survivability, but most people don't seem to realise that the reason we survive 2-3 people beating on us is the fact that we burn a lot of CDs (some on a 2 minute CD). Doesn't seem any worse than a DPS burning long term CDs to do burst damage, and is easily managed. The good PVPers stun me (or move to someone else if resolve is full) when I pop a shield, the bad ones keep swinging and then come to the forum after a WZ. If you could do your normal rotations in a WZ then the other side aren't playing well and you'll always seem invincible. The fact is that healers have to put up with 50 foot neon arrows over their heads that can be seen from the other side of the battlefield and prevent them from hiding anywhere - there is something seriously wrong with your opponents if you are allowed to heal normally for any point in time. The problem with a class with 12 resource points is that tinkering with the costs has a massive effect on it. You can't rebalance the existing heals without introducing new ones, or you end up doing what people have highlighted here and affected throughput by 30%. So Normal healing is down 30%, burst is probably down more. I never felt powerful enough to warrant that sort of nerf. Why in MMOs is there always such a push to switch healing every major patch and make healers relearn their rotations/abilities. The game doesn't look that unbalanced that drastic changes were needed. It seems every time some DPS can't kill a healer that healers need to be brought down. Maybe if they used more of their non damage abilities they might do better. DPS don't pay my subscription (soon, noone will pay my subscription), don't redesign my class to suit them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bewareofcrazies Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I only play healers, and as happy as I am to see Sawbones getting some love... Why, BW? What did Sages and Combat Medics ever do to you? Except, you know, keep you alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asunasan Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 RuQu got everything right. I'm an scoundrel, got the biggest buffs of the healers, and still think these are some terrible patch notes. PVE wise: Sorc/Sage: Only viable AOE healer, only slightly behind the merc/commando in single target. Should have seen minor nerfs probably in the form of making them have some degree of resource mamangement. Scoundrel/Ops: There was no reason to bring them to endgame. Needed major buffs. Worst heals no utility beyond the 5% cirt buff that doesn't count. Merc/Commando: The fact that these guys got nerfed is beyond me. Smart healing+4 targets and they would have been balanced nearly perfectly. PVP wise: Sorc/sage: was pretty much fine. A little out of control due to its counter (scoundrel/ops) of having been nerfed into the ground but overall fine, high utility / heal value but easy kill. Shouldn't have been touched with nerfs or buffs in PVP. Scoundrel/Ops: total heal ability being low hurt them a bit here, complete lack of utility / displacement abilities was game breaking. Deserved a PVP buff in terms of displacement ability, a minor raw healing buff probably would have fit too. Mercs/Commando: Yes they were powerful healbots, but their lack of an interrupt paired with limited displacement meant they didn't bother me too much. The only healing class that might have deserved a pvp nerf but only minor Bio you either needed to go full on niche healing with a tank healer a group/jack of all trades healer and a real hot healer or you needed to do exactly what RuQu and the very useful and informative Healing forums suggested. I haven't seen such a well organized, respectful, useful and professional MMO forum in years, and yet that resource was completely ignored and instead you guys listen to Zoeller who is by no means professional and has no idea what he's doing. FTL Bio. Please just do everything suggested in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainot-keel Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Make the PvP healing debuff amount vary by class if one class is too good at PvP healing. Don't break PvE to balance PvP. /signed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowAxx Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) /signed I unsubscribed tonight and I am a monthly subscriber. If the proposed changes to healers is allowed to go into effect in the live version of Patch 1.2, I will not resubscribe to the game. I switch between playing a BH/merc healer and DPS-Pyro. BH/Merc healing is not over powered in the game and the proposed changes are unacceptable. If there have been complaints from a large PvP crowd regarding healers, IMHO the problems lies with teams which use communications and tactics and players who do not. Nerfing healers to address the benefit of teams playing with tactics is unacceptable. Further, I like many other dual role players, have heavily invested time, commendations and credits into gearing up my Bounty Hunter for DPS and Healing. Since these changes will make the BH healer the least loved healer class in the game, will I be able to get those commendations & credits back so I can repurpose them in a DPS skill set? I posted a thread on this question and mod Zoltare deleted it. Further... this proposed patch choice to nerf and cause 2/3 of the healing population in the game grief instead of buffing OP healers for balance, demonstrates yet another instance of unfriendly decision making toward PAID subscribers. I don't play this game to feel bad about choices I have made and this proposed change is deal breaker for me. I fully support comments offered by RuQu. ShadowAxx The Swiftsure Edited March 19, 2012 by ShadowAxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ademnus Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 It is clear from the patch notes that the developers have absolutely no idea how healers are played. They also clearly fail to grasp the idea of class balance or to understand that there are options besides nerfing everything into the ground. back in '08 we told them to make a set of pvp trees and a set of pve trees and then you can safely nerf one without ravaging the other but oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aritok Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 No, they won't all the data they need, but that affects any test done to a small percentage. They can get an statistically sound number though, and balance on that to start with. Then throw the changes out live, and balance some more. It's impossible to get 100% accurate data from a small percentage, but that's just how stuff works. I'm sure BW is not trying to "break" the game, or "punish" healers or anything like that. So let's see how it comes out, and now that we have combat logs, we will be able to do better theorycrafting, and actually see how good/broken they are after the change. What number do you think they will get from fresh level 50 doing HM flashpoints on PTS? I can tell you, ZERO!!! They will get no information how this new changed characters will be in hardmode flashpoints with the gear they are made for (orange and blue). Unless they do what RuQu suggest, to allow some EXP NPCs to get fast Level 50 chars. How many data do you think they will get from combat medics at high end? Maybe data from ONE person. That is not even enough to get some authentic informations. Being able to heal for ever is not a good mechanic. It leads to sloppy DPS. If our resources do not run out as healers, then we can take 40 mins to kill a single boss. We would be able to cover deficiencies in other classes too well, and that would be a problem when they develop future content. We would be back to extreme enrage timers, and other things that can unbalance the game as well. Well, than they have to remake the whole commando at all. Because his small 12 ammo with costs of the heal of 3, means he eighter run out of ammo in 30 sec, or can heal forever. That was the whole concept of the class. If they dont want this, they have to redesign everything. But to be honest, i am not sure you know what you are talking about. Every class can make a rotaion where they can heal forever. Use a med pack every 90 sec means the same. I can heal forver. A Sage can heal forever. he has a fixed force regen, a fixed cost, and can, with the same rotation, chain heal forever. Same with the "old" and "new" commando. It is still a forever healing. It just became 30% worse in 1.2. And this 30% makes it impossible for new player, who level up, to do some content like flashpoints. And this is what i call short viewed. Not knowing what they all mess up with this "little" change. This whole change must have be done for PVP. Because there was no reason at all to make these for PVE. All they do it messing up PVE and leveling/progress with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck_Diesel Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I just canceled my subscription. Let's see if BW gets the message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeAes Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) /signed The change to Noble Sacrifice is stupid. If I'm not mistaken, it now only causes you not to degenerate Force, which quite frankly, in the heat of battle, I don't give a damn about how quickly / whether or not my Force regenerates, I care about my health and about my Force pool at the moment. Changing Resplendence to not prevent the health hit of Noble Sacrifice renders Noble Sacrifice almost entirely useless. This, in turn, makes the points spent in Resplendence almost entirely useless. I can understand the change to not allow Conveyance to be used twice (e.g. Healing Trance > Deliverance supercombo) - this is fine. But to change the way it affects the heals entirely is unnecessary. Sages NEED the ability to cast a burst heal, otherwise Benevolence is the only heal we have and even if it crits with the added crit% currently in the game, it's still not good. Why remove tools? Edited March 19, 2012 by SnakeAes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowAxx Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Healer Protest - Hit Twitter with your thoughts. @Rockjaw @JamesOhlen @SWTOR I have posted my thoughts. "Proposed changes to healers, merc/commando specifically are unacceptable. I have unsubscribed and won't renew if in the final 1.2." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaearth Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Bump/Subscribe I'm beginning to see a recurring pattern of sensible threads about Healing disappearing into a mass of QQ and fluff threads in every forum that isn't the Healer forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 Bump/Subscribe I'm beginning to see a recurring pattern of sensible threads about Healing disappearing into a mass of QQ and fluff threads in every forum that isn't the Healer forum. I wonder if there is a correlation between the rate that non-healer crying pushes actual reasoned healer discussion into obscurity and the Devs willingness to nerf healing into the ground while not fixing any of our complaints... I'm sure it's just a coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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