Pyro Railshot ever 6 Seconds!??!?!

[Varicite]

I don't think rail shot and flame burst were designed to be spammed.

 

If we weren't designed to spam Flame Burst, then why don't we have any other filler moves? <.<

 

Rail Shot obviously wasn't designed to be spammed, or it wouldn't have a cd.

 

Flame Burst / Flame Sweep are the only no-cooldown moves that we have, so it stands to reason that these are supposed to be our filler.

 

Now Pyro's filler will be spamming basic attack for 500-600 damage.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite

[PurpleMagick]

We have two filler moves, flame burst and rapid shot. You should have a balance of the two, not just spam flame burst and rail shot. Flame burst was obviously added as the equivalent of the Juggernaut's vicious slash. A heavy-hitting but expensive resource dump. Not spammable filler.

 

Yeah its a nerf. But its a reasonable one.

Edited March 19, 2012 by PurpleMagick

[Dharagada]

How reasonable it is remains to be seen.

 

Remember the golden rule of pyro, kill or be killed.

 

We've been given no extra mobility or surviability but are offense has certainly taken a hit here, probably enough of one that classes that where hard fights for us before (but possible) are probably going to become impossible now, or very close to it.

[SeanofSF]

BW needs to realize that 6 secs is way too long. Again a compromise can be made. With the way the patch notes read, maybe they should buff the damage of rail shot as well as rapid shots...I understand pyro can do a lot of damage and at times be OP, but really don't see this being a fun pvp build anymore.

[Mapex]

If we weren't designed to spam Flame Burst, then why don't we have any other filler moves? <.<

 

Rail Shot obviously wasn't designed to be spammed, or it wouldn't have a cd.

 

Flame Burst / Flame Sweep are the only no-cooldown moves that we have, so it stands to reason that these are supposed to be our filler.

 

Now Pyro's filler will be spamming basic attack for 500-600 damage.

 

PyroTech's Flame Burst is supposed to simply apply the DoT and slow and of course proc your Rail Shot every 6 seconds if RP didn't already do so. Otherwise Pyro is supposed to be a semi-ranged spec that does utilize Rapid Shots often enough to keep Heat levels down. Unload is also good (and benefits from Rain of Fire for extra damage), especially since PyroTech is more capable of fighting at range than the other specs.

 

Only AP is really supposed to forgo Rapid Shots almost entirely for Flame Burst (except when Heat gets really messy) because the spec's cylinder doesn't benefit from blaster attacks whatsoever and has not one but two procs that rely on Flame Burst spam. Of course, AP's attacks overall aren't as powerful as PyroTech's, so rarely needing to use Rapid Shots is a means to even out the damage discrepancy a bit.

[Jemfisto]

Forget the impact on class performance - playing with a mechanic like this is clunky and not fun. Its an rng ability with 6 second cool down feels weird and annoying.

[Varicite]

We have two filler moves, flame burst and rapid shot. You should have a balance of the two, not just spam flame burst and rail shot. Flame burst was obviously added as the equivalent of the Juggernaut's vicious slash. A heavy-hitting but expensive resource dump. Not spammable filler.

 

Yeah its a nerf. But its a reasonable one.

 

Um, were you not using Rapid Shots at all before? I'm not even sure how that would be possible for longer than a single heavy burst rotation and then blowing your Vent Heat cd. After that, what do you do, just overheat for the next minute and half?

 

Good Pyros were ALREADY weaving Rapid Shots into our attacks. This change doesn't do anything but make us use Rapid Shots far, far more.

 

Also, please stop trying to compare Vicious Slash to Flame Burst, as Jug's basic attack GIVES them resources (a decent amount on each strike, too compared to how much heat gets dissipated on each press of Rapid Shots).

 

They are not comparable abilities due to our completely different resource mechanics.

[Nucairion]

there are nerfing alot of lclasses not just your class/ac so i hardly see how it matters compared to merc/commando whos tracer missle/grav round is getting a 10% nerf to its damage. while i agree a nerf was needed i certainly dnt think 10% was needed, 5% max but not a 10% nerf as thats not jsut a nerf to the skill its a complete nerf to there damage.

 

but looking at the patch notes and changes to each class its clear biowares only answer to imbalce is to nerf rather than balance, thinking if they nerf enough people while be happy

[Varicite]

PyroTech's Flame Burst is supposed to simply apply the DoT and slow and of course proc your Rail Shot every 6 seconds if RP didn't already do so. Otherwise Pyro is supposed to be a semi-ranged spec that does utilize Rapid Shots often enough to keep Heat levels down. Unload is also good (and benefits from Rain of Fire for extra damage), especially since PyroTech is more capable of fighting at range than the other specs.

 

Only AP is really supposed to forgo Rapid Shots almost entirely for Flame Burst (except when Heat gets really messy) because the spec's cylinder doesn't benefit from blaster attacks whatsoever and has not one but two procs that rely on Flame Burst spam. Of course, AP's attacks overall aren't as powerful as PyroTech's, so rarely needing to use Rapid Shots is a means to even out the damage discrepancy a bit.

 

No one is saying not to use Rapid Shots... we already do that. You have to, if you want to keep heat at manageable levels. I didn't mention it in the post you quoted because EVERY class has a spammable basic attack that gets used for filler (besides Sorcs who don't use theirs, lolmelee) so I kinda thought that part was a given. I just named our actual abilities that are used for filler.

 

I don't think that we were intended to use Rapid Shots for 33% of our rotation, though, which is how it looks right now on PTS.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite

[Kothakk]

there are nerfing alot of lclasses not just your class/ac so i hardly see how it matters compared to merc/commando whos tracer missle/grav round is getting a 10% nerf to its damage. while i agree a nerf was needed i certainly dnt think 10% was needed, 5% max but not a 10% nerf as thats not jsut a nerf to the skill its a complete nerf to there damage.

 

but looking at the patch notes and changes to each class its clear biowares only answer to imbalce is to nerf rather than balance, thinking if they nerf enough people while be happy

 

At the same time heatseeker missile gets a 10% dmg increase.

[Varicite]

there are nerfing alot of lclasses not just your class/ac so i hardly see how it matters compared to merc/commando whos tracer missle/grav round is getting a 10% nerf to its damage. while i agree a nerf was needed i certainly dnt think 10% was needed, 5% max but not a 10% nerf as thats not jsut a nerf to the skill its a complete nerf to there damage.

 

but looking at the patch notes and changes to each class its clear biowares only answer to imbalce is to nerf rather than balance, thinking if they nerf enough people while be happy

 

Are you in here talking about a 10% nerf to Tracer Missile in a class' forum who just took a whopping 30%~ nerf to sustained damage?

 

In either case, the TM nerf doesn't really do anything that BW intended for it, so I hope it gets changed.

 

At least our nerf actually does curb burst (which was intended), but at the expense of sustained damage and resource regen.

[Sevvy]

A 6 second internal cooldown would be fine if every Rocket Punch and Flame Burst proc'd Rail Shot. But an extra 15% chance on each ability doesn't make up for a 6s internal cooldown. We're going to be seeing serious Heat issues unless we remove all burst from a spec that is built on burst damage, by mixing Rapid Shots into almost every other GCD. The rotation is probably going to include 3 or 4 Rapid Shots instead of 3 or 4 Flame Burst/Rocket Punch. Which is going to destroy our burst/sustained damage.

 

Another thing to think about: Sometimes you choose not to use Incendiary Missile as an opener due to Heat concerns. If you're in range of a target, sometimes Flame Burst is the appropraite ability to open with. Not any more. If you open with a Flame Burst and proc PPA while Rail Shot is not on cooldown, you have just crippled your ability to manage Heat and do damage.

 

This is a scary change. So many possibilities for failure. And in the end, I think we're going to find that the pros of a tank build like Iron Fist or a 23/17/1 type of build, far outweigh the damage/burst capability of the new Pyro spec. No Heat cost Quell on a 6s CD? Yes, please. The cons of tank builds now, is the lack of burst and Heat management. And the cons of a Pyro spec in 1.2 are going to be lack of burst, Heat management, lack of defense, no gap closer, no Guard. It's not hard to see what spec will be superior in 1.2.

[Jaigen]

First, you're just flat wrong, as I have played the 2 dps specs extensively in PvP, and I can assure you that it does indeed have more problems than AP. 8 heat vented passively every 6 seconds is WAY better than the RNG 8 heat vented ~6 seconds on average by Pyro, from a resource standpoint. You know all those times that you're high on heat and have to move toward another fray spamming Rapid Shots to try to cool down? Yeah, AP is still venting during those times.

 

make that 15,5 heat. Your forgetting that your performing a free attack and in those 1.5 seconds you are also venting heat.

Second, ST has TWO heat vent mechanics at play, one of them an on-demand heat vent ability that does damage on a 15 second cd on top of Shield Vents which will vent heat every 6 seconds in PvE.

 

ST is not a dps spec.

Third, it's more like 50% less resource regen, not quite 100% but still a huge hit to our regen mechanic, because of the internal cooldown on the proc rate. You have a 6 second window where it CANNOT proc. Then you need to use an ability that MAY proc it. Then you need to wait for the GCD so that you can actually use Rail Shot to vent heat. That's 7.5 seconds in the BEST possible circumstance, already lagging behind both other specs heat management mechanics.

 

It was over the top compared to the heat vent abilities of arsenal and AP

It will not proc on the first ability (Flame Burst, which I explained to you in the last post) all the time, so you need to add at least 1 more GCD to the mix for average. Now you're sitting at 9 seconds to proc Rail Shot.

 

I don't know what planet you're from that 9 = 6, but it's not this one.

 

Its still in line with other heat vent mechanics.

They should just lower the ICD to ~4 seconds so that we can at least vent heat around the 6 second mark (like the other 2 specs) in best possible circumstances, or just change PPA's proc effect to lower Rail Shot's cd to 6 seconds altogether.

 

Perhaps or perhaps not. its clear that that the previous PPA was horribly imbalanced.

 

 

In short their is a lot of whining. And the only thing BW did was to bring PPA in line with the other heat vent abilities

[Sevvy]

In short their is a lot of whining. And the only thing BW did was to bring PPA in line with the other heat vent abilities

 

^^^ Has never played a Powertech.

[Theology]

In short their is a lot of whining. And the only thing BW did was to bring PPA in line with the other heat vent abilities

 

Yah, you've never played a powertech bud, as you'd know this isn't true.

[Varicite]

In short their is a lot of whining. And the only thing BW did was to bring PPA in line with the other heat vent abilities

 

Right, so you're basically just in here spouting drivel w/ no actual facts to back up your statements. Gotcha.

 

In short, you don't play a Pyro PT as all of your comments are just flat wrong about the spec, so please kindly leave this topic to people who actually know what they're saying.

 

I'm not opposed to optimism (if anyone has seen my post history in PT forums, I generally try to stay hopeful), but when you come in here and spew a bunch of baseless nonsense, it's not really going to do anything to help the situation.

 

And it certainly reflects poorly on your class knowledge.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite

[BanetheDarkLord]

Just my luck when I'm in the process of making a Pyrotech PT, this happens. I was having so much fun with my Pyro too.

[Varicite]

Just my luck when I'm in the process of making a Pyrotech PT, this happens. I was having so much fun with my Pyro too.

 

I was in the process of leveling a Marauder just to see what the best healer killer in the game was like.

 

Yay me?

 

Oh, word of advice for rerollers... Sniper. There's gonna be a TON of Marauders/Sents running around after 1.2.

[Jaigen]

Right, so you're basically just in here spouting drivel w/ no actual facts to back up your statements. Gotcha.

 

In short, you don't play a Pyro PT as all of your comments are just flat wrong about the spec, so please kindly leave this topic to people who actually know what they're saying.

 

I'm not opposed to optimism (if anyone has seen my post history in PT forums, I generally try to stay hopeful), but when you come in here and spew a bunch of baseless nonsense, it's not really going to do anything to help the situation.

 

And it certainly reflects poorly on your class knowledge.

 

Yeah whatever but at least i know that even with this nerf heat vent for pyro's is still superior to arsenal and AP. Its simply called math , you whiners all fail at that. I also know that PPA reduces heat by 15.5 ( who has poor class knowledge?). So yes you are whiny nuggets.

And saying to me that i dont understand the class is funny as hell

[Sevvy]

Just my luck when I'm in the process of making a Pyrotech PT, this happens. I was having so much fun with my Pyro too.

 

Iron Fist is going to be the way to go. 6s interrupt with no Heat generation is going to be sick. And honestly, the burst of that spec with DPS stats(tank stats are bad in PvP) is going to rival the neutered Pyro burst.

[Theology]

Yeah whatever but at least i know that even with this nerf heat vent for pyro's is still superior to arsenal and AP. Its simply called math , you whiners all fail at that. I also know that PPA reduces heat by 15.5 ( who has poor class knowledge?). So yes you are whiny nuggets.

And saying to me that i dont understand the class is funny as hell

 

If you knew the class bro, then you'd know that pyro heat ventilation post 1.2 will be approximately 30% less than the AP tree, and, depending on RNG, upwards of 30% less than that of the shieldtech tree as well.

[Spifnar]

Aside from heat management concerns, any kind of ICD on a random proc ability is horribly clunky mechanics. You can forgive it in respect to defensive procs, due to multiple attackers skewing proc rates.

 

Add in the cooldowns for RP and Rail, and you've got something that's a complete mess

 

An ICD just covers bad mechanics. Hell, attach a 100% proc rate to RP and the last tick of Unload and drop Flame Burst from proccing, so it can be used to cause burning. Probably overpowered, but at least it's interruptable in PvP (where the burst problem is)

[BanetheDarkLord]

Iron Fist is going to be the way to go. 6s interrupt with no Heat generation is going to be sick. And honestly, the burst of that spec with DPS stats(tank stats are bad in PvP) is going to rival the neutered Pyro burst.

 

Eh, I might give it a shot, but I was never too crazy about it. Never know until you try I guess.

 

It seems there might be a new AP focused spec that might be viable with the 1.2 changes. I'd probably be more interested in that.

[Theology]

Either way theres been great discussion in this thread, i certainly hope bioware is reading it.

[Sevvy]

How is Pyro's venting better than AP's? Lol.

 

And I agree, the ICD is a bad mechanic. This is a band-aid fix for a poorly designed mechanic. FIX BAD WITH BAD!

 

Some of the things Bioware does to classes, not just Powertech(and this goes back to beta), I question whether they've ever played some of these classes with any regularity at 50 with gear. I would assume they don't. Or they're just not very good at their own game.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Sevvy