AcaciaDragon Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 One thing that isn't actually mentioned in the patch notes, is that Quick Recovery is actually gone (since Short Fuse was moved to the place of Quick Recovery and Decimate was introduced in T1 of Rage). This means that Smash and Sweeping Slash will always cost 3 Rage, meaning you can't spam Smash/Sweeping Slash for 8 or less Rage to get a full stack of Fury. Don't know why they didn't mention this, seeing as it is a fairly big nerf for PvP. Being able to start a fight with a full stack of Fury while having Frenzy ready is a major advantage in 1v1s. Its because Carnage marauders would get free Sweeping Slashes during a Berserk, I was wondering if it was removed or not, i just assumed it would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasymodeX Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) i would predawtion (80% speed boost) and force camo through the flames and get the throw for the win. now this is impossible when this patch hits. I often run through fire with Cloak of Pain (and Defensive Roll). 50% damage reduction is more than enough. Especially when you have 80% predation, you can just run through the fire without any defensive cooldowns. Edited March 20, 2012 by Meluna rude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightmist Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 One thing that isn't actually mentioned in the patch notes, is that Quick Recovery is actually gone (since Short Fuse was moved to the place of Quick Recovery and Decimate was introduced in T1 of Rage). This means that Smash and Sweeping Slash will always cost 3 Rage, meaning you can't spam Smash/Sweeping Slash for 8 or less Rage to get a full stack of Fury. Don't know why they didn't mention this, seeing as it is a fairly big nerf for PvP. Being able to start a fight with a full stack of Fury while having Frenzy ready is a major advantage in 1v1s. Thank you for writing this down, it wasn't clear that quick recovery was removed in the patch notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZakPreston Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Carnage is the most fun spec of all three trees, but is a full garbage in terms of survivability of Anni and burst of Rage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaStyx Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I wouldn't be too worried about it. There will always be crap-tastic players out there that don't understand why their 5-meter range super-smash doesn't work when it's constantly interrupted. Force camo + 30% reduction aoe talented ability = very crappy smash and 15 secs of major burst damage negated Intimidating roar right as the smash is about to occur since it has that ridiculous wind-up Force choke b/c of same above reason. And that's just for marauders interrupts. So many different ways to interrupt their smash attacks, which makes rage difficult to truly master, but it's definitely not a broken spec, not even now. It will be used by crap players to augment their lack of skills, but they'll still be easily picked off by a good player, just like hybrid sorcs are and just like Sin tanks/dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibmachine Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I'm having another look at Rage changes and tbh, while Decimate and access to Short Fuse are nice, I'm realizing that overall damage buff might not be as critical as it might seem. Force Crush will keep its 18s cd but Smash, Choke and Scream will go back to their original which is 12s, 1min and 15s respectively. Also, with Quick Recovery gone, full rotation will cost a **** ton of rage. So yeah, rage will definately look better damage-wise but will have its drawbacks. It remains to be seen how much of a damage increase will Decimate and Zerk giving 4x Shockwave provide when compared to increased overall cost and increased cd of key abilties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasymodeX Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 It will be used by crap players to augment their lack of skills, but they'll still be easily picked off by a good player, just like hybrid sorcs are and just like Sin tanks/dps. Rage is more capable than you give it credit for. Skilled Rage players will effectively joust Annicheese. And the defensive talents won't stop Force Crush from tearing it up. Obfuscate murders Annihilates. Honestly the fights are relatively even. They mostly depend on who was ready to deal with which mechanics. Theoretically, Annihilation should win said duel, but it can go either way. The primary issue is for the Rage player to actually hold their Smash effectively. However, in this case the "ball is in the Rage spec's court", so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaStyx Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Rage is more capable than you give it credit for. Skilled Rage players will effectively joust Annicheese. And the defensive talents won't stop Force Crush from tearing it up. Obfuscate murders Annihilates. Honestly the fights are relatively even. They mostly depend on who was ready to deal with which mechanics. Theoretically, Annihilation should win said duel, but it can go either way. The primary issue is for the Rage player to actually hold their Smash effectively. However, in this case the "ball is in the Rage spec's court", so to speak. You took a portion of my statement to try and make it seem like I said "Rage sucks" when in fact I said the opposite. The very beginning of that statement says that "Rage will be used by unskilled players b/c of it's ability to give huge burst, and even now it's not a broken spec". I never said rage isn't a good tree/won't be a good tree after 1.2 but what I did say was even after 1.2, unskilled players who think they will lolly-smash their way with marauders to be OP'ed like Sin-Tank dps specs or hybrid sorcs will definitely see it's not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainInsano Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 The Rage changes looked fantastic at first, but the compensatory nerfs have brought it back down to earth. I doubt it will be a preferred spec over Annihilation at this point. Annihilation will still be king after the patch. So we lost Phantom, gained better execute range and no rage cost on utility skills, and Ravage is not interruptable. Looks like a stalemate to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaStyx Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Our job is to be the dogger of healers and will remain our job. If the nerfs for both sorcs and mercs go through, added with the buffs that we receive, our job will be that much easier. Sorcs will eventually run out of force (which in all honesty shouldn't be an issue now b/c they are so squishy) and mercs won't be able to sit in their bubbles and out heal our dps without ever overheating. We were never made to be the Spartans of SWTOR, taking on 3 and 4 people at a time, and quite frankly 1 on 1's are a rarity in PvP unless you actually duel somebody. I totally agree that even with the pretty smash numbers, annihilate will remain the best spec to use, but I'm happy to see we have options that we didn't have prior to these possible upcoming changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutch-master Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 So, nerf everyone BUT the most OP dps in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBninjaX Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) It's still not a nerf. Now you are spending 2 talent points for that functionality. After the patch you will have half of that without spending any talent points. At worst it's a push, a neutral change, because there are still desirable places to spend those 2 points. speak for yourself. do you even play this game? sometimes I wonder if some of you people stumbled over from a different MMO. I do nothing but queue warzones, with the occasional OP thrown in... it's a nerf. 100% damage reduction is huge for huttball. What am I going to spend those other 2 points on that will help me carry games as drastically as the old phantom? I'll go ahead and answer that for you: nothing. Furhtermore a longer duration FC will only increase the likelyhood of a pass incomplete. maybe your server is different though, and huttball doesn't pop 3 out of 5 times Edited March 20, 2012 by HBninjaX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasymodeX Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Only idiots spec 2/2 Phantom currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainBarbosa Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Don't know why people keep saying they will be getting 30% smash damage now. Decimate is now a 20% talent, not 30%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-Sidious Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I really dont think this patch is making marauders OP at all. If youve started 50 pvp recently as a marauder you will probably find it extremely difficult to kill anyone not as undergeared as you. Once I get my Battlemaster gear im sure it will be a lot easier. But I have 3 pieces of Champion gear with the rest full Centurian and I'm just hitting 15k hp. The whole point of the marauder class is to jump in, **** **** up, and then run away without getting blown up. And with all the class utility from the other classes, I feel marauder needed a buff for dps. But. Doing overall large dps has never been a problem. I usually get high in overall dps. But in pvp who gives a crap about overall dps. It's about how many people you can kill so that you can capture the objective. And I just dont see marauders doing enough in a real fight unless they have a pocket healer. But we'll have to see how it plays through once the healer nerfs happen. That was a big cause of marauders not being as useful because all the damage i did single target could be EASILY healed through even if I popped all cd's and rode the healers *** at all times. If my only role is to dps and **** **** up while trying not to die. Then I think that the class should have more burst dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcaciaDragon Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Don't know why people keep saying they will be getting 30% smash damage now. Decimate is now a 20% talent, not 30%. Decimate was a juggernaut talent, Marauders couldnt even get it. So it is a buff. It may do only 10% less damage, but thats 20% more than rage had to begin with. Dont know why people have trouble reading the patch notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasymodeX Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Decimate was a juggernaut talent, Marauders couldnt even get it. So it is a buff. It may do only 10% less damage, but thats 20% more than rage had to begin with. Dont know why people have trouble reading the patch notes. And some people have trouble reading the part where Smash will have a 12 second cooldown in 1.2, up from 9 seconds now. A 20/203 = 9.6% increase Smash damage is not worth a 3/9 = 33% increase in the cooldown. Edit: Of course, it's possible that Decimate will modify the inherent damage numbers of Smash, with ShiiCho and quake stacks acting as a buff-multiplier, stacking multiplicatively with the "base Decimate" modification. This would result in Decimate *actually* giving +20% damage, which would make it a "meh" tradeoff with the 33% cooldown nerf. This is unlikely based on the way most MMOs calculate most things, but not guaranteed. Edited March 20, 2012 by EasymodeX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcaciaDragon Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 And some people have trouble reading the part where Smash will have a 12 second cooldown in 1.2, up from 9 seconds now. A 20/203 = 9.6% increase Smash damage is not worth a 3/9 = 33% increase in the cooldown. Edit: Of course, it's possible that Decimate will modify the inherent damage numbers of Smash, with ShiiCho and quake stacks acting as a buff-multiplier, stacking multiplicatively with the "base Decimate" modification. This would result in Decimate *actually* giving +20% damage, which would make it a "meh" tradeoff with the 33% cooldown nerf. This is unlikely based on the way most MMOs calculate most things, but not guaranteed. I was just commenting on how Decimate wasnt a marauder Talent to begin with, the other poster seemed to think it was. Now that stagger is not in Rage anymore, I dont think a Rage marauder would grab the Ravager Talent over a Smash buff Talent especially since it doesnt reduce the cooldown of Choke anymore for Shockwave stacks. Doesnt matter if its a buff or not, Rage will still get it over Ravager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lollermittens Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Barely anything? No more Ferocity and Phantom nerf aren't just flavour changes, they're game changers, especially with Short Fuse now being a shared talent. Ferocity changes the way you play Huttball, and is instrumental in defensive swaps in Civil War. With that taken away and redistributed, Annihilation just got kicked in the balls and the torch passed over to Carnage. So yes, it got destroyed. Ferocity was a favourite among many. Erm, the hyperbole is a little strong here... I think the changes are great but Anni is still going to be 100% viable -- even better with the upcoming changes. The re-vamped talent trees for Carnage and Rage are great; it's obvious they are builds that emphasize more on team-play which would make them optimal specs for Rated WZs. But to claim that Anni spec is dead is similar to providing wrong analysis/judgement. It's still going to be the dominant spec because whether you like it or not Annihilate is still our hardest hitting ability. We'll have to see with Gore (make sure Blood Frenzy is up) -> Force Scream can replace Annihilate -- a skill which I remind you lowers its CD on its use (which is the biggest trick in an Anni spec is to get that 3-stack Anni buff and keep spamming that baby). I just don't see Force Scream/Smash replacing Annihilate as our main damaging ability. For all its shortcomings, Anni spec will still be king (and as I have mentioned, all of the buffs we've gotten complement an already powerful Anni spec). If anything, the buffs to Carnage and Rage were to bring the trees up-to-speed with Annihilate -- please note I'm strictly speaking about PvP here. PvE is so easy, any spec is viable even though you might not be pulling optimal damage. Edited March 20, 2012 by lollermittens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lollermittens Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I really dont think this patch is making marauders OP at all. If youve started 50 pvp recently as a marauder you will probably find it extremely difficult to kill anyone not as undergeared as you. Once I get my Battlemaster gear im sure it will be a lot easier. But I have 3 pieces of Champion gear with the rest full Centurian and I'm just hitting 15k hp. The whole point of the marauder class is to jump in, **** **** up, and then run away without getting blown up. And with all the class utility from the other classes, I feel marauder needed a buff for dps. But. Doing overall large dps has never been a problem. I usually get high in overall dps. But in pvp who gives a crap about overall dps. It's about how many people you can kill so that you can capture the objective. And I just dont see marauders doing enough in a real fight unless they have a pocket healer. But we'll have to see how it plays through once the healer nerfs happen. That was a big cause of marauders not being as useful because all the damage i did single target could be EASILY healed through even if I popped all cd's and rode the healers *** at all times. If my only role is to dps and **** **** up while trying not to die. Then I think that the class should have more burst dps. Marauders don't come out of their shells until they get Rakata/BM weapons and a solid 450+ expertise (currently, but in 1.2 expertise will be king). So you're gonna suffer for a while until you can get good weapons -- Champion MH/OH simply don't cut it with anyone who has full Champion+ gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LagunaD Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 It would appear that Ataru Form damage may not be "increased by 10%", but actually reduced by 20-25%: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=371763 If anybody with a high-level on the test server can confirm or correct my conclusions, it would be good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atreyuz Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) So you're gonna suffer for a while until you can get good weapons -- Champion MH/OH simply don't cut it with anyone who has full Champion+ gear. Are you kidding me? champ 302-453 BM 306-459 The only nice thing is that BM have power while Champ have Crit , and power to me is harder to come by. If my 2xBM weapons would suddnely downgrade to 2xchamp without me even knowing, I wouldnt even notice it I guess. Edited March 21, 2012 by atreyuz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miliways Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Hallelujah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cokn Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I honestly think we are headed for a Rage nerf after 1.2 jacks rage damage way up. That is, if Decimate is the same decimate that juggs get (10/20/30% extra smash damage) currently. I already can push 5k medals regularly and they are making it easier for me AND adding damage? If that is just added to the game in its current state, that is pretty OP. Now, if they are changing DRs on stats (say Power for instance) then it may balance things out. On the other hand, it may make Rage more attractive in Ops but I don't think even these changes will make it more attractive then Annihilation or Carnage in PVE. Basically, I think this will bring up the level of play for the sub-par marauders but may push the really good marauders over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcaciaDragon Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Thank the Sith Gods! Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Ataru form is indeed doing less damage and this is not intended. We will be correcting this before Game Update 1.2 goes live. Thanks for your feedback! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=371763&page=9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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