Poor vanguard...

[Emencie]

Compared to the Immortal Juggernaut/Guardian tank the PT/Vanguard tank is a god on the battlefield.

 

You do twice as much damage and can taunt others and guard others just as well.

 

Plus you have something that Juggernauts don't get. A native pull. This by far makes you the most powerful tank in the game. You are better than Assassins because you have a charge and can engage targets at all ranges, while the Assassin and Immortal cannot.

 

I have a 50 War Hero Juggernaut and I have extensively played all three specs in PvP. So I know a little about this.

 

I currently have a PT Shield Tech (Tank) specced and I PvP in the sub 50 WZs all the time.

 

I usually get more medals and outdamage the DPS classes because I can stay up longer.

 

The experience Sub 50 is about the same as it is at 50 in terms of what each class can do.

 

Currently tanky classes like the Juggernaut (Vengeance not Immortal specced) and PT (Shield Tech or Pyro Tech specced) are the best classes in the game.

 

Going to have to disagree with you there. I haven't played Guardian at all but my KC shadow completely kills my Van as far as survivability in PVP goes. With all the same defenses as my Van My Shadow can also heal on demand not to mention drop target, sprint away and stealth.

 

When my healer gets separated from me I'm not at the mercy of the pack because I have a lot better skills to deal with the situation. While I agree that not having a charge makes me on my shadow. My shadow definitely outshines my Van in pure survivability.

 

I would never say that shadow > Van though. Because personally I do like Van more. And no one as you pointed out can engage the battle field like they do. But that's not really "tanking" in the traditional sense of being sturdy and holding aggro.

[Scoobings]

Any type of vanguard completely stomps over any other class 1v1. I don't think you're in a position to complain.

 

Not entirely true. 1v1 Snipers (of all classes. I know crazy right?) are actually pretty difficult. They're able to shred our mobility with cover, and cover also eats railshot.

 

A tank assassin pretty much beats me every time too. They have a lot of anti-powertech utility.

 

A good maurader is very tough, but beatable if everything goes my way RNG wise.

 

Pretty much everything else is Powertech bait 1v1 though.

[Emencie]

So why is it my tech attacks do much less damage to heavy armoured target? Before you say gear disparity I have full BM gear. There must be something that is lowering my damage to them.

 

Because...

 

Armor mitigates Energy and Kinetic damage.

 

Its true that Defense and Shield only work on weapon attacks. but just because they cant defend or shield the attack doesn't mean armor doesn't come into play.

Examples.

 

A weapon attack that does energy damage will be subject to shield, defense and Armor mitigation

A tech attack that does energy damage will bypass shield, defense but still be subject to armor mitigation

A tech attack that deals elemental damage will bypass shield, defense and armor

Edited March 15, 2012 by Emencie

[Vaipyr]

Tanks in general are too tough in pvp.

 

I lol'd until I puked. Nicely done man. Funny stuff.

[Thrishmal]

So really you just aren't happy with the type of tanking role you have in the spec. I am not sure what more you want from the spec, to be honest.

 

I take quite a beating in shield spec and feel I do a really effective job tanking. To to it best does require teamwork such as incoming heals and dps that know what they are doing.

 

I mean, look at all the tools you have to play with as a shield vanguard: Smoke Grenade, Taunt, AoE Taunt, Guard, AoE stun, Cryo Stun, Harpoon, Charge with root/interrupt, and your interrupt. It is super easy to make a huge impact on the battle with all of those abilities, I know, I do it all the time.

 

Are you going to get recognized for doing it? Not always. A good tank knows when they made a difference, it does not matter if others share in that or not.

[exphryl]

I mean, look at all the tools you have to play with as a shield vanguard: Smoke Grenade, Taunt, AoE Taunt, Guard, AoE stun, Cryo Stun, Harpoon, Charge with root/interrupt, and your interrupt. It is super easy to make a huge impact on the battle with all of those abilities, I know, I do it all the time.

 

I highlighted the ones specific to specing in the shield tree.

 

Further illustrating the point Tank trees need work if you spec in to them.

[Retro_Chrome]

So really you just aren't happy with the type of tanking role you have in the spec. I am not sure what more you want from the spec, to be honest.

 

I take quite a beating in shield spec and feel I do a really effective job tanking. To to it best does require teamwork such as incoming heals and dps that know what they are doing.

 

I mean, look at all the tools you have to play with as a shield vanguard: Smoke Grenade, Taunt, AoE Taunt, Guard, AoE stun, Cryo Stun, Harpoon, Charge with root/interrupt, and your interrupt. It is super easy to make a huge impact on the battle with all of those abilities, I know, I do it all the time.

 

Are you going to get recognized for doing it? Not always. A good tank knows when they made a difference, it does not matter if others share in that or not.

 

most accurate post yet.

 

Vanguards are almost build for huttball as much as guardians are

 

vanguards can roll in a pure dps spec and be almost as tnaky as they are ina full tank spec

 

vanguards can roll deep in the tank tree and still throw out great DPS numbers

 

to be honest vanguards are probably the most balanced overall in regards to damage vs survivability

 

the OP definitely needs to re- evaluate what he is wanting out of his class

[MartyrLXXVII]

So why is it my tech attacks do much less damage to heavy armoured target? Before you say gear disparity I have full BM gear. There must be something that is lowering my damage to them.

 

Because tech attacks only effect shields and 'dodge' defense. Armor is bypassed by elemental and internal damage types, not attack type. So you can have a tech elemental attack and that auto ignores all defenses period.

 

But even so armor doesn't play that big a roll. Even in tank stance which gives +60% armor, heavy armor still classes still get ***** pretty easily. The only mitigation that's any good is pure X% damage reduction and that's where you see most of the extra survivability from tank specs.

[Faat]

This is complete garbage.

 

OP is simply clueless about HOW TO PLAY a ranged / melee hybrid tank. You have the advantage to be able to hit melee from range and ranged from melee.

 

Your goal with a shield specc vanguard is to slowly but surely DPS but mainly, guard the right people and taunt the right targets.

 

Your goal with a shield specc vanguard is to leap or pull when the ennemy tries to get away (usually you do that on a backline DPS or healer), chain interrupt them with the reduce cooldown interrupt perk. You can completely shut down a healer, and you can stay alive quite well. Maybe not as well as other tanks, but here I'll follow with an explanation on playstyle vs melee, as any vanguard any specc will eat RDPS alive if he's not numbnuts.

 

Vs melee, you have to kite them, you have to stay out of 4m range but within 10m to be able to spam spam ion pulse (elemental damage, boosted by perks in the shield / tactics tree, can crit for 1.5k, cost low amount of ammo and is SPAMMABLE). That's EASY to pull if you're used to kite in games like WAR. What I basically will do in a 1v1 against melee, sticky grenade when available, leap or let them get in 4m range, gut, stockstrike (with 100% snare), then hammer shot / high impact bolt / ion pulse while kiting within 10m but out of 4m range. Use hammer shot to refresh DoTs and snare to create distance. Use your stuns to create distance after using gut and stockstrike within 4m range. You can basically kite circles around them and when they use a gap closer you simply use gut + stockstrike then create distance spamming hammer shots and ion pulse (with the use of sticky 'nade and high impact bolt asap).

 

That way you'll beat most melee. And since marauder / jugg needs to build up their rotation with some white damage from melee, that playstyle completely ****s them up. They can't build up their rotation and waste a lot of time chasing you around snared. Don't forget that leap also roots the target in place and you can specc for a speed boost attached to it, so you can leap + gut + stockstrike and get out of the 4m range right after to keep owning him with ion pulse / HiB / sticky grenade / hammer shot to reapply snare, to keep staying out of 4m range. I basically only engage melee from melee range when stockstrike is up, then I move out of range right away (although I also will use gut to refresh the DoT). That'll also **** Operatives up because they don't have a gap closer, and your DoTs and scan will prevent them from using stealth during combat.

[Retro_Chrome]

that might be so because there are no good 21/2/18 vanguards, and how could they with such a crappy spec?

 

are you crazy? that spec is one of the most popular specs and can offer the most utility and versatility. you lose some in damage, but with a GOOD player behind the keyboard it can pretty much handle any situation.

 

hrm range+melee+survivability+2 gap closers+primarily elemental damage if the damage was just a bit higher there would be as many nerf vanguard threads as there are about sorcs and mercs

 

you sir have obviously never used this spec to its fullest potential

[Slackfumasta]

If a "tank" grabs the hutball and walks into the endzone with no one able to stop him... I hate to say it but that is so much L2P its insane.

 

Now if what you are saying is the tank grabs the hut ball and with 2 or more healers trailing him he just walks to the endzone with a guard on him and you cant stop him. I agree it happens but honestly with good healers that happens all the time no matter the class. And its not the tank's tankyness that is keeping him alive its the heals.

 

But unkillable lol... unkillable 1v1? maybe I'd give you that. But trust me when I say a Sage/commando will live a lot longer than any Van in outnumbered situations. And even the Iron fist has a very hard time putting out the burst needed to take down good healers. The best tactic is to shut them down while another teammate kills them since they cant do much with a Van in their face.

 

Trust you when you say that? Sorry, you are wrong, completely wrong. Sage/Commandos are very squishy - any tank class lives far longer against multiple opponents.

 

Of course the vanguard has support, but since he pugs a lot, it's not coordinated, pre-made style support. I can get the same support as a commando or sage, but I can still be focused down.

[Faat]

are you crazy? that spec is one of the most popular specs and can offer the most utility and versatility. you lose some in damage, but with a GOOD player behind the keyboard it can pretty much handle any situation.

 

hrm range+melee+survivability+2 gap closers+primarily elemental damage if the damage was just a bit higher there would be as many nerf vanguard threads as there are about sorcs and mercs

 

you sir have obviously never used this spec to its fullest potential

 

I also like the 26 / 13 / 2 specc, because I prefer to use ion cell and guard people all the time. With your specc you have to use plasma cell, then lose the ability to guard, and ion cell survivability buffs. IMO, it's better to use ion cell for 1v1.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Faat

[Varicite]

When it comes to tech attacks, aside from the paper tiger operative/scoundrel, who is throwing lots of uninterruptable force/tech attacks at you? The only one that puts out significant pain is tracer spammers who you can quite easily chain interrupt and completely wreck.

 

Just thought I'd point out that Assault Vanguards / Pyrotech Powertechs dish out a metric TON of uninterruptable tech attacks as well as sporting a 90% armor penetration High-Impact Bolt / Rail Shot as their main heavy hitter.

 

As a result, they do close to the same high damage against any target. Naturally, light armor wearers suffer a little more, but most of their attacks are Tech / Elemental.

[Emencie]

This is complete garbage...

You missed the point of the entire OP.

 

OP isn't saying Vanguards are bad. OP is saying full tank spec for the sake of tanking is useless on all tanks though most noticeable on Vanguards in PvP. Like you said in your own post, the OP is saying that all Vanguard tanks are forced to be hybrids to be viable because tanking is useless in PvP. You can taunt and guard while DPSing and your survivability is heavily dependent on the healer you are guarding. That is why no PVP spec calls for 30 in shield spec while and taking the purely tanking skills. instead the build calls for 25 in the tank tree to get the 2% damage reduction, storm, and more damage on your stock strike. every other talent taken is to increase damage, or take away mobility from your opponent.

 

That isn't tanking. That's DPSing with your guard on.

[Faat]

You missed the point of the entire OP.

 

OP isn't saying Vanguards are bad. OP is saying full tank spec for the sake of tanking is useless on all tanks though most noticeable on Vanguards in PvP. Like you said in your own post, the OP is saying that all Vanguard tanks are forced to be hybrids to be viable because tanking is useless in PvP. You can taunt and guard while DPSing and your survivability is heavily dependent on the healer you are guarding. That is why no PVP spec calls for 30 in shield spec while and taking the purely tanking skills. instead the build calls for 25 in the tank tree to get the 2% damage reduction, storm, and more damage on your stock strike. every other talent taken is to increase damage, or take away mobility from your opponent.

 

That isn't tanking. That's DPSing with your guard on.

 

I agree, but title should then be 'tanking stats are useless in PvP'.

 

Vanguard is the best bang for the buck and easiest tank to play. Shield specc hybrid is insanely powerful in groups and 1v1. Be it 26/13/2 or 21/2/18, depending on which stance you prefer to use (ion or plasma cell).

 

My prefered 26/13/2 build : http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GRGbzRbRMZMsMroZb.1

Edited March 15, 2012 by Faat

[Raggok]

Your goal with a shield specc vanguard is to leap or pull when the ennemy tries to get away (usually you do that on a backline DPS or healer), chain interrupt them with the reduce cooldown interrupt perk.

 

You can't have Frontline Defense with a full Shield build.

[Faat]

You can't have Frontline Defense with a full Shield build.

 

Yeah, I wasn't talking about full shield. I actually never tried it, because it's no rocket science hybridizing is better for PvP.

[Raggok]

I agree, but title should then be 'tanking stats are useless in PvP'.

 

Vanguard is the best bang for the buck and easiest tank to play. Shield specc hybrid is insanely powerful in groups and 1v1. Be it 21/18/2 or 21/2/18, depending on which stance you prefer to use (ion or plasma cell).

 

I'd argue that Vanguard is the worst tank if you are judging it on it's abilitiy to peel trains off of your healer. Vanguard does not have an AoE snare.

[Fdzzaigl]

Any type of vanguard completely stomps over any other class 1v1. I don't think you're in a position to complain.

 

I'd like to see you "stomp" over marauders, any type of healer and DPS sorcs as a shield or hybrid shield vanguard.

Good marauders and good healers are even very hard to sometimes near impossible to kill for an Assault vanguard, let alone with the measly damage of the shield spec.

 

Hybrid shield (21/2/18) is useful for your group and you can score high protection scores and generally annoy the living crap out of the enemy team, but that's where it ends: you won't do particularly well in person facing the burst and CC bonanza that is WZ PvP.

 

The high damage output of the assault tree is a far better defence than the 2.5k more health and extra shield / absorb rating that PvP tanking gear & spec grants you.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[Raggok]

Yeah, I wasn't talking about full shield. I actually never tried it, because it's no rocket science hybridizing is better for PvP.

 

Understood. I got the impression the OP was talking specifically about taking the last two teirs in the shield tree.

[MartyrLXXVII]

Trust you when you say that? Sorry, you are wrong, completely wrong. Sage/Commandos are very squishy - any tank class lives far longer against multiple opponents.

 

Of course the vanguard has support, but since he pugs a lot, it's not coordinated, pre-made style support. I can get the same support as a commando or sage, but I can still be focused down.

 

Lol, no tanks die just as fast as anyone else when focused. The only thing that makes tanks harder is if they have healer that's being ignored, them they can stay in the fight for ages. But simply being a tank will not keep you alive any longer against 4+enemies then any other class.

 

As for you support example, sorry but if a commando has the ball and tries running it and not passing it immediately, well he doesn't deserve support. Aside from a kb, commandos have nothing at all that would be good for holding the ball. Tanks only make better ball runnerss because of their mobility and gap closers. It's not like its hard in a pug for a ball runner to get heals and a guard, it doesn't take a rocket scientist or even vent to figure out that concept. Pre-made organization just makes for better ball movement, passes etc, nothing to do with basic survival.

Edited March 15, 2012 by MartyrLXXVII

[Loxion]

Any type of vanguard completely stomps over any other class 1v1. I don't think you're in a position to complain.

 

Total garbage. A shield spec tank will loose to most classes if they have any idea what they are doing, they have very low DPS and the tanking stats are ignored / mitigated by alot of attacks.

 

A DPS spec Vanguard is another matter, they have pretty much the same tankiness (using Ion Cell to boost armor, as thats the majority of the tank in PvP) but significantly increase the DPS aspect.

 

As others have said, tanks are only hard to take down if they have a pocket healer and that healer is left alone.=

Edited March 15, 2012 by Loxion

[Faat]

I'd like to see you "stomp" over marauders, any type of healer and DPS sorcs as a shield or hybrid shield vanguard.

Good marauders and good healers are even very hard to sometimes near impossible to kill for an Assault vanguard, let alone with the measly damage of the shield spec.

 

Hybrid shield (21/2/18) is useful for your group and you can score high protection scores and generally annoy the living crap out of the enemy team, but that's where it ends: you won't do particularly well in person facing the burst and CC bonanza that is WZ PvP.

 

The high damage output of the assault tree is a far better defence than the 2.5k more health and extra shield / absorb rating that PvP tanking gear & spec grants you.

 

Actually, you have to use DPS gear and specc offensive perks / utility, as a a shield hybrid VG.

 

Tanking gear is completely useless.

[therouterninja]

Vanguard are *insane* in 1v1's. Parakeet and Iron Fist builds are both very good. The grapple is basically an "I win" button in hutball. I've played every class in the game, and vanguard and shadow(31/0/10) are the only classes I felt a little overpowered playing. There was a recent thread on 3v3 tournaments and vanguards ended up near the top in the victory bracket.

 

Yes, you will get crushed standing in the middle of tracer/electricity spam. Don't make yourself an easy target, get attention from people, then LOS, then charge to players out of range, etc.

 

Ranged taunt and guard make you incredibly useful to your team, and probably more useful than you standing in place taking punches.

 

It sounds like the OP knows all this though, and is saying he doesn't want to play to the vanguard's strengths. If you want to die slowly with crowds of focus-fire, perhaps guardian is the better choice(keep in mind vanguards are much better for pve due to threat mechanism).

[Fdzzaigl]

Actually, you have to use DPS gear and specc offensive perks / utility, as a a shield hybrid VG.

 

Tanking gear is completely useless.

 

Indeed, it is. Which is in itself a big huge billboard sign saying "Something is wrong here".

I got PvP tank gear for PvE first (now I've got DPS as well), you had to love those massive 2k (max!!) crits.

 

But guess what the top tier talents for vanguard shield give you? Shield / absorb.

Guess what the ammo regen for a tank vanguard depends on? Shield.

The same stats which are pointless on PvP tank gear are pointless in the talent trees.

 

The only reason to go hybrid is to have utility and be carried by your gear for the rest, the spec sure isn't doing anything else but utility.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Fdzzaigl