mmjarec Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 seeing how 2/3 of them are worthless then i'd rather have a tree that is more survival focused or defense focused, while we are a dps class so are assasins. jugs are tanks they have a dps tree so why not give us a pvp/defense centric tree. anihiliation is okay but those little heals have never kept me alive thats for sure when u get crit for 5k + seems stupid to have 2/3 trees completely worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calrian Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) They just need to adjust the other ones, perhaps having anni as the DoT focused tree, carnage as a spikey burst damage tree, and rage as aoe/survival. Those two just need a little help. But in no way should we have a true tank tree, that's not who we are. We are melee dps, that is it, and all our tree should decide is the form that dps takes. I'll agree 100% that our other two trees need work. For raiding, 2/3 just aren't optimal. Not arguable, they just aren't. Edited March 13, 2012 by calrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shatterstar Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Carnage and Rage are completely viable for pve and pvp. Many don't think they are optimal, but that doesn't make it fact. Until we have DPS meters, I don't know how anyone can make a blanket statement like that. One of the better mara I know is a very successful raider and pvp-er, and he runs carnage. Just because you can't make it work doesn't mean it isn't any good, it just isn't any good for you. Besides, the trees lend to different playstyles.. not everyone wants to play the endless dot thing, and some people just like to see big numbers float across their screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calrian Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 And if they enjoy playing that way, that is fine. If you look at what are considered the best PvE guilds, and check out their marauders, they roll Anni. Is Carnage viable? Yes! Can some people succeed with it? Yes! If they could manage the DoT's, would they do more DPS and be a better utility for a raid as Anni? A definite YES! The math has been done multiple times, Anni wins in a dps race and provides more utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shatterstar Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Where's your proof? Oh that's right, you don't have any. Most people roll anni because 90% of the people that post here are fanbois who say anni is the only option. Not saying the other specs couldn't possibly use a little love, but I don't think the difference is as great as people like you think it is. And until there is hard math to prove one way or the other, it all boils down to a he said, she said thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calrian Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) How's this? To test the dps of the two trees, I spec'd in each one. Then I killed identical creeps over and over. I counted 100 kills from each tree. No companion, self buffed only. And then I timed the length of time it took me to kill each mob, or rather had my brother do it with a stop watch. I am not home, so I do not have the numbers. But Anni's average kill time was significantly faster. You can say l2p or whatever else, but I know how to work both specs and researched them all and played both before testing it. Throw in Anni's heals and the fact that sometimes you can't dps a boss/player and therefore the damage from DoT's...Anni is head and shoulders above the rest. Do some research or testing. EDIT: By the way, where do you get your ideas? One guy you know is a solid carnage marauder, therefore you win? I hope you base your other opinions on something more...substantial. Edited March 13, 2012 by calrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calrian Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Oh, and maybe, just maybe, there is a reason 90% of the marauders here support Anni, as does every single raiding marauder I know. EVERY one. And I know more than a few. But of course, you know so much more than them, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawelc Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 HAHAHA so just cause Anni is FOTM and you know lots of raiders that run it, that makes it best? Give me a break and quit clogging the forums till combat logs come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calrian Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 HAHAHA so just cause Anni is FOTM and you know lots of raiders that run it, that makes it best? Give me a break and quit clogging the forums till combat logs come out. I told you what I based that on. I have also analyzed the time it takes me to kill my assigned council member in EV. I only did it once with carnage, so the test sample is too small, but the kill was slower. Also, in that raid I was not able to assist with the minimal healing I normally can. It's a significant addition to a marauder, and is part of what makes the Anni build superior. Rather, it is those saying carnage is equally viable who have not bothered to post any evidence what so ever. Yes Anni is the FotM, but you should consider there may well be a reason for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yescek Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) How's this? To test the dps of the two trees, I spec'd in each one. Then I killed identical creeps over and over. I counted 100 kills from each tree. No companion, self buffed only. And then I timed the length of time it took me to kill each mob, or rather had my brother do it with a stop watch. I am not home, so I do not have the numbers. But Anni's average kill time was significantly faster. You can say l2p or whatever else, but I know how to work both specs and researched them all and played both before testing it. Throw in Anni's heals and the fact that sometimes you can't dps a boss/player and therefore the damage from DoT's...Anni is head and shoulders above the rest. Do some research or testing. EDIT: By the way, where do you get your ideas? One guy you know is a solid carnage marauder, therefore you win? I hope you base your other opinions on something more...substantial. Counter-Question: How does Anni have higher DPS based off of a LONGER kill time? *Disclaimer: I know it does, at least once you get it rolling, but your example doesn't make sense the way it's worded at the moment. I roll Carnage. I can tell you, from my research, that the only thing limiting Carnage right now is the design of Gore and the Ataru bug. But with some practice, BOTH of those can be worked around. Watching your footwork during key boss sequences anyone? That being said, if we'll agree to disagree, I'll at least concede that Annihilation does provide better utility and is easier to keep the DPS rolling once you get it ramped up. But Carnage is FAR from worthless. It's simply much more skill oriented due to the 6 second DPS window and needing to keep in proc-range. Not everyone can do it. Once they fix the Proc-hitbox bug, I'll never switch again. With or without changes to Gore. *Edit: In terms of RAW DPS over a boss fight, Anni does beat out Carnage. But that's intended, because if a burst spec could achieve the sustained Damage of Anni and still have massive burst potential, it'd be an overpowered spec. Sustained Damage will ALWAYS beat burst in a DPS race simply because DoT DPS never goes down so long as you keep them applied. I do believe they need to buff Carnage a touch to bring it in line with Anni, but you need to be VERY careful when talking about that sort of thing because it'd be retardedly easy to **** it up and accidentally make Marauders/Sentinels OP. Edited March 13, 2012 by Yescek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calrian Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Counter-Question: How does Anni have higher DPS based off of a LONGER kill time? *Disclaimer: I know it does, at least once you get it rolling, but your example doesn't make sense the way it's worded at the moment. I roll Carnage. I can tell you, from my research, that the only thing limiting Carnage right now is the design of Gore and the Ataru bug. But with some practice, BOTH of those can be worked around. Watching your footwork during key boss sequences anyone? That being said, if we'll agree to disagree, I'll at least concede that Annihilation does provide better utility and is easier to keep the DPS rolling once you get it ramped up. But Carnage is FAR from worthless. It's simply much more skill oriented due to the 6 second DPS window and needing to keep in proc-range. Not everyone can do it. Once they fix the Proc-hitbox bug, I'll never switch again. With or without changes to Gore. I meant faster, rather than longer. I corrected it. I never said carnage was worthless, or rather I did but as a mispeak. Rather it just isn't OPTIMAL. True, once they fix Carnage's bugs it will be better. But they haven't yet. As you said, Anni offers more utility, if the dps is even equal (Which I don't believe it is) it still is superior. Edited March 13, 2012 by calrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 not so much tanky as in survival focused for pvp is all i care about really, i know anihiliation is fine but the others need help, dont nerf it and make all three suck, calling for that is stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shatterstar Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 HAHAHA so just cause Anni is FOTM and you know lots of raiders that run it, that makes it best? Give me a break and quit clogging the forums till combat logs come out. Thanks. At least one person understand what I am saying. @Cal: I am trying to figure out if you are a troll, or just a FOTM fanboi. I am not saying because I know one carnage mara that is good, that I know it all. Far from it. Then again, I am not saying anni is the only spec without any proof either. I am saying that without logs, parses, and/or meters, nobody knows the true difference between the specs. Tell me, how many times did you run this test in each spec? Was it a couple times? 10 times? a hundred times? Do you realize that an effective sample size would actually have to be in the thousands to mitigate the effects of the RNG? And I do know that I played anni, and I did not find it the super-power you claim it to me. I kill stuff far quicker in rage spec than I ever did as anni spec. So, whose proof is right, your testing or mine? See the problem here? Without a true way to test, it boils down to your word versus mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yescek Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) I meant faster, rather than longer. I corrected it. I never said carnage was worthless, or rather I did but as a mispeak. Rather it just isn't OPTIMAL. True, once they fix Carnage's bugs it will be better. But they haven't yet. As you said, Anni offers more utility, if the dps is even equal (Which I don't believe it is) it still is superior. Thank you for the corrections. And I would completely agree that Carnage, as it stands, is not OPTIMAL. Once the bugs and the design flaws are fixed, the DPS potential will be the same. At that point, it'll simply be an argument over utility. Which is fine by me. Personally, I think Carnage needs to be BETTER DPS than Annihilation. Why? BECAUSE of all the utility Annihilation brings to the table. That would make choosing between an Annihilation Marauder and a Carnage Marauder and ACTUAL choice rather than an instant decision. not so much tanky as in survival focused for pvp is all i care about really, i know anihiliation is fine but the others need help, dont nerf it and make all three suck, calling for that is stupid. As for this, nobody is calling for nerfing Annihilation. Carnage and Rage do NOT suck. People simply do not understand how to apply them to the various situations presented by PvP and Raiding. Rage and Carnage CAN be used for PvE/PvP. But your milage WILL vary, because those two specs are not inherently designed for PvE, and in PvP the battle is always shifting. Edited March 13, 2012 by Yescek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calrian Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Thanks. At least one person understand what I am saying. @Cal: I am trying to figure out if you are a troll, or just a FOTM fanboi. I am not saying because I know one carnage mara that is good, that I know it all. Far from it. Then again, I am not saying anni is the only spec without any proof either. I am saying that without logs, parses, and/or meters, nobody knows the true difference between the specs. Tell me, how many times did you run this test in each spec? Was it a couple times? 10 times? a hundred times? Do you realize that an effective sample size would actually have to be in the thousands to mitigate the effects of the RNG? And I do know that I played anni, and I did not find it the super-power you claim it to me. I kill stuff far quicker in rage spec than I ever did as anni spec. So, whose proof is right, your testing or mine? See the problem here? Without a true way to test, it boils down to your word versus mine. I am neither. I am someone who disagrees with you based on experience playing both builds, experiments with both, and has done research. Believe what you want, but the fact remains that anni provides far superior utility, dots for when you can't be on the boss, and according to research, testing, and general consensus amongst raiders, more dps. I know there is no dps meter, but that doesn't mean you can't test it. I have yet to see anything empirically say carnage is on the level. In 100 kills with each, comparing average times, and median times, anni won. Not by a little, by a lot! I'll post numbers when I have them. Again, not at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 Thank you for the corrections. And I would completely agree that Carnage, as it stands, is not OPTIMAL. Once the bugs and the design flaws are fixed, the DPS potential will be the same. At that point, it'll simply be an argument over utility. Which is fine by me. Personally, I think Carnage needs to be BETTER DPS than Annihilation. Why? BECAUSE of all the utility Annihilation brings to the table. That would make choosing between an Annihilation Marauder and a Carnage Marauder and ACTUAL choice rather than an instant decision. As for this, nobody is calling for nerfing Annihilation. Carnage and Rage do NOT suck. People simply do not understand how to apply them to the various situations presented by PvP and Raiding. Rage and Carnage CAN be used for PvE/PvP. But your milage WILL vary, because those two specs are not inherently designed for PvE, and in PvP the battle is always shifting. you saying they are good prove my point that THEY ARE TOO SITUATIONAL, there is NO UTILITY in this class and that is VITAL FOR PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 other classes have multiple specs that are good and viable and play a role in pvp, we do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridisi Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 you saying they are good prove my point that THEY ARE TOO SITUATIONAL, there is NO UTILITY in this class and that is VITAL FOR PVP. You obviously don't know what a heal debuff is then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nessirin Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Counter-Question: How does Anni have higher DPS based off of a LONGER kill time? *Disclaimer: I know it does, at least once you get it rolling, but your example doesn't make sense the way it's worded at the moment. I roll Carnage. I can tell you, from my research, that the only thing limiting Carnage right now is the design of Gore and the Ataru bug. But with some practice, BOTH of those can be worked around. Watching your footwork during key boss sequences anyone? That being said, if we'll agree to disagree, I'll at least concede that Annihilation does provide better utility and is easier to keep the DPS rolling once you get it ramped up. But Carnage is FAR from worthless. It's simply much more skill oriented due to the 6 second DPS window and needing to keep in proc-range. Not everyone can do it. Once they fix the Proc-hitbox bug, I'll never switch again. With or without changes to Gore. *Edit: In terms of RAW DPS over a boss fight, Anni does beat out Carnage. But that's intended, because if a burst spec could achieve the sustained Damage of Anni and still have massive burst potential, it'd be an overpowered spec. Sustained Damage will ALWAYS beat burst in a DPS race simply because DoT DPS never goes down so long as you keep them applied. I do believe they need to buff Carnage a touch to bring it in line with Anni, but you need to be VERY careful when talking about that sort of thing because it'd be retardedly easy to **** it up and accidentally make Marauders/Sentinels OP. From my experience, [And I wanted to make carnage work, I really did, it looked fun, pure-dps wise] , I prefer anni because of its group utility. Improved predation is huge, self healing is fairly decent as well (I'm usually at 120k+ healing in voidstar, the only raid-like WZ I'd look at, as far as consistent action). And the ability to build up fury faster is always nice as well, because it leads to more predations , if needed. And lets not forget an extra invulnerability cooldown that Anni gets, that allows you to stay in the fight for longer and avoid damage mechanics completely. (Take gharj for example, more uptime on him from dots during transition as well as I don't have to move out of half the pounces). I do look forward to the day that Carnage will be comparable to Anni for raiding, for me, but currently it is not the case. I would think it would have to do slightly more damage (Maybe with bug fixes and a buff to gore, who knows, but we'd need a meter first, anyway) to combat the utility of anni. Of course this is just opinion, but one that is shared among my guildies and friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anbokr Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) Carnage is garbage. Period. Carnage marauders are so worthless; I think I've beaten every single one on my server with at least 75% health. They hit like wet noodles without gore, and there's so much control in this game that you will always be able to counter the gore pop (any class, any spec, any player can and should). Sad too, the spec has potential and could be more fun than annhilation but as it stands right now; anyone that chooses carnage over annhilation is just gimping themselves. Shouldn't even need to explain why rage is garbage. It was fun while everyone had 0 expertise and you got to stomp lowbies; but longevity killed the spec (competitively at least). Edited March 14, 2012 by Anbokr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderbubble Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I wish Rage was more of an off-tank DPS stance rather than an AoE burst one. Marauders and Snipers are the only two ACs that are forced to DPS 100% of the time. Other classes get to mix and match, but we're stuck with only DPSing. Sure, we shouldn't be a tank class, but why can't we have a tree that makes us a literal off-tank? We can already kind of do it, but I would gladly give up the current Rage tree in order to have it do less damage with more survivability (and taunts). Marauders could be a great back-up tank for raids in such a tree, doing above-average damage when the main tank is tanking, and being a below-average tank if something happens to the main tank (like a Mind Trap, other incapacitation effects, or death). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maintain Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 How's this? To test the dps of the two trees, I spec'd in each one. Then I killed identical creeps over and over. I counted 100 kills from each tree. No companion, self buffed only. And then I timed the length of time it took me to kill each mob, or rather had my brother do it with a stop watch. I am not home, so I do not have the numbers. But Anni's average kill time was significantly faster. You can say l2p or whatever else, but I know how to work both specs and researched them all and played both before testing it. Throw in Anni's heals and the fact that sometimes you can't dps a boss/player and therefore the damage from DoT's...Anni is head and shoulders above the rest. Do some research or testing. EDIT: By the way, where do you get your ideas? One guy you know is a solid carnage marauder, therefore you win? I hope you base your other opinions on something more...substantial. First of all without appropriate damage meters of some sort it is impossible for you to personally claim one spec is better then another. You claim to have tested YOUR speed at killing mobs in both specs, to me this doesn't prove anything. Perhaps your terrible at one of the specs thus leading to a slower kill. Just because it takes you 5 seconds longer to kill something doesnt prove that the prolonged damage isn't going to even out. Plus in pvp consecutive damage is nice, however, big hits and major crits are very fundamental and very useful in lots of situation. It stresses out healers and makes players blow there cool downs quicker. Don't just claim things with no REAL evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OdamanPrime Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 It's pretty obvious playing the two specs which does better in pvp. Annihilation can have a higher burst (in a 1s time frame) than carnage, has higher survivability, on top of 6s kick, higher sustained dps (which even carnage fanbois admit to, with the defense that carnage has better "burst"), and 80% group movement speed. Carnage is viable, but sub par when compared to annihilation. If you really need a combat log to tell the difference I question your ability to look at a healthbar or read numbers crossing your screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maintain Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 It's pretty obvious playing the two specs which does better in pvp. Annihilation can have a higher burst (in a 1s time frame) than carnage, has higher survivability, on top of 6s kick, higher sustained dps (which even carnage fanbois admit to, with the defense that carnage has better "burst"), and 80% group movement speed. Carnage is viable, but sub par when compared to annihilation. If you really need a combat log to tell the difference I question your ability to look at a healthbar or read numbers crossing your screen. PVP isn't always about NUMBERS crossing your screen, there are so many other mechanics that are equally important. This being said, even seeing these numbers it doesn't prove one is doing heavier damage without some way to track the actual output. Unless you have some type of amazing math skills there is no way to add up over all sustained damage while taking in all the shielded or resisted hits, crits, overkills, heals, or any other type of situation. Plus comparing all that info to yet another spec is near impossible without a log showing everything. Comparing one fight to one fight isn't going to have the same results of doing it again. It would take numerous fights to be able to rule which spec is actually BETTER. Then again it's still based off of opinion and play style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nessirin Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 PVP isn't always about NUMBERS crossing your screen, there are so many other mechanics that are equally important. This being said, even seeing these numbers it doesn't prove one is doing heavier damage without some way to track the actual output. Unless you have some type of amazing math skills there is no way to add up over all sustained damage while taking in all the shielded or resisted hits, crits, overkills, heals, or any other type of situation. Plus comparing all that info to yet another spec is near impossible without a log showing everything. Comparing one fight to one fight isn't going to have the same results of doing it again. It would take numerous fights to be able to rule which spec is actually BETTER. Then again it's still based off of opinion and play style. Pure dps spec that relies on a 6 second window vs dps/utility spec that does similar damage, gives aoe healing and better self healing, an improved defensvie cooldown, and a huge group wide speed boost. Hrm. Wonder which one I'd rather have in pvp at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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