I know that it is not a perfect test. Lacking a damage meter and combat logs however, I cannot readily think of another way to test it. I am not terrible at either spec, I'm a competent player who researched rotations and got used to the specs BEFORE testing, because I knew it would be biased if I tested carnage without knowing it as well as I did anni. By the way, don't even try to get into prolonged damage, in raiding and pvp you cannot always be on target, which by default gives anni a huge boost, as the DoTs allow dps even when knock backed, stunned, staying out of fire, etc. The biggest strength of anni is the prolonged dps! As far as pvp, you really can't argue carnage being better than anni. Anni gets healing for yourself and often the group, an invincibility buff, better DoTs (there are so many stuns and knockbacks in this game that it is HUGE to be able to do DPS even while not on the target)...do I really need to continue? Not to mention annihilate gives you some good burst. Now, while my tests might be a bit spotty, which I will give you...is there anything, anywhere, from any credible source that says carnage is superior, or even equal to anni? If so, I must have missed it. Or is it "I saw bigger numbers and cant manage DoTS therefore I think carnage is better"?

I am neither. I am someone who disagrees with you based on experience playing both builds, experiments with both, and has done research. Believe what you want, but the fact remains that anni provides far superior utility, dots for when you can't be on the boss, and according to research, testing, and general consensus amongst raiders, more dps. I know there is no dps meter, but that doesn't mean you can't test it. I have yet to see anything empirically say carnage is on the level. In 100 kills with each, comparing average times, and median times, anni won. Not by a little, by a lot! I'll post numbers when I have them. Again, not at home.

I meant faster, rather than longer. I corrected it. I never said carnage was worthless, or rather I did but as a mispeak. Rather it just isn't OPTIMAL. True, once they fix Carnage's bugs it will be better. But they haven't yet. As you said, Anni offers more utility, if the dps is even equal (Which I don't believe it is) it still is superior.

I told you what I based that on. I have also analyzed the time it takes me to kill my assigned council member in EV. I only did it once with carnage, so the test sample is too small, but the kill was slower. Also, in that raid I was not able to assist with the minimal healing I normally can. It's a significant addition to a marauder, and is part of what makes the Anni build superior. Rather, it is those saying carnage is equally viable who have not bothered to post any evidence what so ever. Yes Anni is the FotM, but you should consider there may well be a reason for that.

Well thank you for that! I am not often up to date with what isn't yet live. I focus enough on what exists now. Seems the dev's agreed with me, this is perfect. I knew there was another raid coming, but I am glad that they did it this way! Can't wait!

Oh, and maybe, just maybe, there is a reason 90% of the marauders here support Anni, as does every single raiding marauder I know. EVERY one. And I know more than a few. But of course, you know so much more than them, eh?

How's this? To test the dps of the two trees, I spec'd in each one. Then I killed identical creeps over and over. I counted 100 kills from each tree. No companion, self buffed only. And then I timed the length of time it took me to kill each mob, or rather had my brother do it with a stop watch. I am not home, so I do not have the numbers. But Anni's average kill time was significantly faster. You can say l2p or whatever else, but I know how to work both specs and researched them all and played both before testing it. Throw in Anni's heals and the fact that sometimes you can't dps a boss/player and therefore the damage from DoT's...Anni is head and shoulders above the rest. Do some research or testing. EDIT: By the way, where do you get your ideas? One guy you know is a solid carnage marauder, therefore you win? I hope you base your other opinions on something more...substantial.

I understand the term guild perfectly well, however the point remains that you cannot get what Biochem makes anywhere else. Where else is this true?

I need to pinch myself...a logical, intelligent, good spirited debate on the internet?! Anyway...my whole point is, at least speaking for my guild and the one that collapsed before it, many people don't want to just want the same instance over and over with a slight tweak in damage or mechanics. I do not know if you raid or not, but for us this is boring. It caused my last raid to self destruct as people quit raiding because they were sick of "Korriban was my cradle, my testing ground" or w/e every....single....week. And when we were all geared, what did we get to do? More of the same, but now with one more lightning ball! If they simply keep introducing easy instances with no options but to farm them on slightly higher difficulty, I and many others I know will not be around for long. There must be something to entice, to pursue, or it just gets stale! At least in WoW, we knew there was always something else to get to, a new instance, a new boss! A new adventure! Here..."Ok guys, Soa has more hp...oh and there is an extra ball, so same as the last 10 kills..."

And if they enjoy playing that way, that is fine. If you look at what are considered the best PvE guilds, and check out their marauders, they roll Anni. Is Carnage viable? Yes! Can some people succeed with it? Yes! If they could manage the DoT's, would they do more DPS and be a better utility for a raid as Anni? A definite YES! The math has been done multiple times, Anni wins in a dps race and provides more utility.

I would also throw out: Carnage for pve? Not a good idea, if you want to maximize dps. Carnage is a bit weak right now and Anni is really the only way to go if you wan to be your very best in DPS. Just my two cents. Play how you want to, but Anni WILL give more bang for your buck. In equal gear, equal skill, a carnage marauder will NOT out dps an Anni marauder in PvE.

Indeed, I did misunderstand what you said. My apologies. Now then I am not saying that there needs to be an instance that 10% of people see or something, just something a LITTLE tougher. ANYONE can run EV/KP on normal. All I am suggesting is an instance where the normal mode is about as hard as the KP/EV hardmode and scales up. That would be achievable to most raiders, which I would think is a significant enough portion of the population and also tends to be the group most likely to resubscribe and to maintain their accounts over the long run. Having challenging content is why I, and many others play. I don't know the math, but I am sure developing an instance as I described would be preferable to losing raiders. If the only way to increase the challenge is to run the exact same content as we beat before, well that sucks. There needs to be something new, but that is also difficult. Not insanely so, but enough that you can't ding 50 and run in, you have to clear previous content first to gear up and learn the coordination needed. I do not know about WoW's raiding as it stands, so I cannot speak on it. I quit just before WotLK came out, due to lacking time to play.

Champion/BM is more than fine for normal mode OPs, and can cut it in hard mode too. I'd suggest a normal run or two first to gear up a little, but you shouldn't have an issue. Source: Started HM's in cent/champ and am now full Rakata.

Allow me to return the favor. In WoW vanilla, I never saw Naxx, most people did not. Did I say, "QQ I didn't see ONE instance! /unsub"? No, and neither did a VAST majority of players. They played the stuff that was down to their level. Know what I did do? I realized that I wanted to see the rest of the content, so I looked up builds, stat optimization, and learned to be the best player I could, got with a good guild, and come BC we were farming BT. Did most people kill Illidan? Nope, and they didn't unsub. My point is, just because some people can't see some content, doesn't mean they unsubscribe. A higher level instance that is more difficult gives those who are farming EV and KP something to move up to. If you can't do it yet, then stick with EV and kp and by the time you are sick of those there is no reason you won't be able to move up. So basically what I am saying is your argument is invalid. As long as they have things to move up to, people will won't quit simply because there is an instance they can't hack it in. Know who will quit? People who are frustrated by content they can clear in one night while half the guild is drunk and that be it for raiding for the week. Also, I'm not saying ONLY have elite instances. Have things like Karaga/EV, and if that is too easy on every difficulty, have something tiered like New instance normal mode => KP EV HM...New instance Hard mode => KP EV Nightmare. Then casuals have their **** to work on and work towards, and so do hard cores. EDIT- I used => to mean great than/equal to, as in a higher tier instance on normal would be harder or the same as KP/EV HM and scale upward as such.

They just need to adjust the other ones, perhaps having anni as the DoT focused tree, carnage as a spikey burst damage tree, and rage as aoe/survival. Those two just need a little help. But in no way should we have a true tank tree, that's not who we are. We are melee dps, that is it, and all our tree should decide is the form that dps takes. I'll agree 100% that our other two trees need work. For raiding, 2/3 just aren't optimal. Not arguable, they just aren't.