PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Drewser]

Yet the way they are doing combat logs will not alleviate the negative impacts.

 

That I disagree on. With it not being live, I am sure there will be less back and forth in pugs.

[NotDonnaReed]

Ugh. Here's why this debate is so absurd.

 

My guild tried an op last week, and we got killed by the enrage timer every single attempt. We spent a week getting better gear for everyone, and we're going to try again this weekend.

 

If we hit the enrage timer again, I'm going to ask everyone to fly to Voss and take turns DPSing a champion mob to 50 percent health with the help of the same tank and healer, so I can manually calculate each person's DPS.

 

This isn't an ideal solution, because it won't tell me how well they run and shoot, but it will at least tell me if they have smart stats and a good rotation.

 

The bottom line is this: I need metrics, and I will have them one way or the other.

 

Why are people more interested in hiding poor performance than in fixing it? That enrage timer is non-negotiable.

[DarthKhaos]

No he can't.

 

In order for him to get that information, the person who died would have to upload the log along with everyone else in the raid and then the logs would have to be parsed and only after that can the healer check. As I stated earlier, getting the whole to upload the logs properly is a non-trivial problem that creates significant delays in the time between death and when the healer can view the log. Which results in this sort of uploading most likely not being done until after the whole raid is over. That defeats the point of what he wanted to do, i.e. quickly check to see who died so the next attempt goes better.

If you got that level of mistrust from your guild-mates then you have bigger problems. Instead of uploading numbers and all that jazz why not just ask them what killed them? Which was what the person I quoted was talking about. If for everything you must have a log to tell you then perhaps you need to learn how to watch your screen than some number output.

 

Ugh. Here's why this debate is so absurd.

 

My guild tried an op last week, and we got killed by the enrage timer every single attempt. We spent a week getting better gear for everyone, and we're going to try again this weekend.

 

If we hit the enrage timer again, I'm going to ask everyone to fly to Voss and take turns DPSing a champion mob to 50 percent health with the help of the same tank and healer, so I can manually calculate each person's DPS.

 

This isn't an ideal solution, because it won't tell me how well they run and shoot, but it will at least tell me if they have smart stats and a good rotation.

 

The bottom line is this: I need metrics, and I will have them one way or the other.

 

Why are people more interested in hiding poor performance than in fixing it? That enrage timer is non-negotiable.

And with private logs everyone can find out their dps. Ta Da!

Edited March 19, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Seregul]

That I disagree on. With it not being live, I am sure there will be less back and forth in pugs.

 

"Hey guys, last night I did x dps on this boss, so it's not my fault we're wiping, it's yours. L2P noobs"

 

"Hey player A, your spec is awful. Maybe if you spent a few minutes researching your class you'd know that"

 

"Hey healer, the boss hit me 5 times that last pull and I didn't get a single heal, stop being bad"

 

Is this griefing? How does a personal log stop any of it from happening?

[Stupiddrummer]

I will type it for the 4th time, I am not against combat metrics.

 

If I could have it done my way, it would be a toggle.

 

Again, I only jumped back in this when I saw you comparing it to chat which is just goofy.

 

Haha, so are you just trying to nit-pick flawed arguments from within the over-arching discussion?

 

I do agree, it should be a toggle. One that is off by default. That way, if you couldn't be bothered with combat meters you wouldn't even know they were there.

 

and there should be a chat tab for combat logs, like in WoW.

 

*sigh* a girl can dream...

Edited March 19, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Drewser]

Ugh. Here's why this debate is so absurd.

 

My guild tried an op last week, and we got killed by the enrage timer every single attempt. We spent a week getting better gear for everyone, and we're going to try again this weekend.

 

If we hit the enrage timer again, I'm going to ask everyone to fly to Voss and take turns DPSing a champion mob to 50 percent health with the help of the same tank and healer, so I can manually calculate each person's DPS.

 

This isn't an ideal solution, because it won't tell me how well they run and shoot, but it will at least tell me if they have smart stats and a good rotation.

 

The bottom line is this: I need metrics, and I will have them one way or the other.

 

Why are people more interested in hiding poor performance than in fixing it? That enrage timer is non-negotiable.

 

What percent did you get the first boss down to in EV? I may have an idea if you have not tried it yet to squeeze out some extra DPS.

 

We managed to squeeze an extra 6% out after hitting an enrage timer on HM this weekend.

[Drewser]

"Hey guys, last night I did x dps on this boss, so it's not my fault we're wiping, it's yours. L2P noobs"

 

"Hey player A, your spec is awful. Maybe if you spent a few minutes researching your class you'd know that"

 

"Hey healer, the boss hit me 5 times that last pull and I didn't get a single heal, stop being bad"

 

Is this griefing? How does a personal log stop any of it from happening?

 

I don't consider that griefing, more annoying. Not exactly the most friendly conservation and I wouldn't pug with people like that a second time.

 

What private logs stop is comments like -

 

"hey dillweed, your DPS is only 70% of mine, pick it up", when all the mobs are already being killed and there have been no wipes.

[Snoodmaster]

If you got that level of mistrust from your guild-mates then you have bigger problems. Instead of uploading numbers and all that jazz why not just ask them what killed them? Which was what the person I quoted was talking about. If for everything you must have a log to tell you then perhaps you need to learn how to watch your screen than some number output.

 

Because if he asks "what killed you?" the answer is just as likely to be wrong as it is to be correct.

• If the tank thinks that he died because the boss hit him and didn't notice that he was standing in fire, asking him is not helpful at all.
  
• If the dps stood in fire, but only took 100dmg from it, while he got hit with a targetted boss attack for 15k immediately after, asking him is not helpful at all.
  
• If two different people have separate impressions of what happened, asking either of them is not helpful at all.
  

 

Simply put, people are fallible. They mispercieve things, misinterpret things, forget stuff and generally are not perfect. A log which records things accurately and faithfully does not suffer from those drawbacks.

 

Not to mention, what about PuGs? People don't always run things only with their guild, and it's just as nice to know what's going wrong and how to fix in a non-guild run as it is in a guild run.

[NotDonnaReed]

What percent did you get the first boss down to in EV? I may have an idea if you have not tried it yet to squeeze out some extra DPS.

 

We managed to squeeze an extra 6% out after hitting an enrage timer on HM this weekend.

 

It was Karagga's (Bonethrasher) and we only got him down to 15-20% each time. We had three fresh 50s and an off-spec healer.

 

We're doing EV this weekend. If you could share any tips, I'd really appreciate it. My fundamental concern is that we have 4 talented, geared players who may be tempted to join another guild if we don't start downing some bosses.

[Drewser]

It was Karagga's (Bonethrasher) and we only got him down to 15-20% each time. We had three fresh 50s and an off-spec healer.

 

We're doing EV this weekend. If you could share any tips, I'd really appreciate it. My fundamental concern is that we have 4 talented, geared players who may be tempted to join another guild if we don't start downing some bosses.

 

I will PM you.

[Seregul]

I don't consider that griefing, more annoying. Not exactly the most friendly conservation and I wouldn't pug with people like that a second time.

 

What private logs stop is comments like -

 

"hey dillweed, your DPS is only 70% of mine, pick it up", when all the mobs are already being killed and there have been no wipes.

 

So context is the only distinction. We'll have to agree to disagree then.

[Evironrage]

Not too many folks are using the poll that works. Odd. There is a link to it on the first page. Edited March 19, 2012 by Evironrage

[crimsonsglory]

I will type it for the 4th time, I am not against combat metrics.

 

If I could have it done my way, it would be a toggle.

 

Again, I only jumped back in this when I saw you comparing it to chat which is just goofy.

 

You seems to be relenting. Glad you manage to see the light. There are a few more of those anti recount that needs to be converted

[Drewser]

You seems to be relenting. Glad you manage to see the light. There are a few more of those anti recount that needs to be converted

 

Nope. I said a toggle was my preference in the first version of this thread 3000 posts ago.

[Drewser]

So context is the only distinction. We'll have to agree to disagree then.

 

Umm, of course context matters when were are talking about written/verbal communication.

[Seregul]

Umm, of course context matters when were are talking about written/verbal communication.

 

What I meant was you only consider it griefing when the remark is made relative to what other people are doing. Berating someone for having a mathematically inferior spec wouldn't qualify then.

[Drewser]

What I meant was you only consider it griefing when the remark is made relative to what other people are doing. Berating someone for having a mathematically inferior spec wouldn't qualify then.

 

I wasn't clear. What I posted was an example of communication that won't be in the game without live logs. I don't consider what I posted as 'griefing' either.

 

It is simply annoying communication that the game is better without it.

[DarthKhaos]

Because if he asks "what killed you?" the answer is just as likely to be wrong as it is to be correct.

• If the tank thinks that he died because the boss hit him and didn't notice that he was standing in fire, asking him is not helpful at all.
  
• If the dps stood in fire, but only took 100dmg from it, while he got hit with a targetted boss attack for 15k immediately after, asking him is not helpful at all.
  
• If two different people have separate impressions of what happened, asking either of them is not helpful at all.
  

 

Simply put, people are fallible. They mispercieve things, misinterpret things, forget stuff and generally are not perfect. A log which records things accurately and faithfully does not suffer from those drawbacks.

 

Not to mention, what about PuGs? People don't always run things only with their guild, and it's just as nice to know what's going wrong and how to fix in a non-guild run as it is in a guild run.

Talk about missing everything. I'm talking about personal logs. You don't need to upload the logs to find out. You can ask him and boom you know.

 

I've said it before I'll say it again. That's what you get for running a PuG. You don't get people on the bleeding edge and to try to alienate that group of people is wrong. You want elite action stick to guild runs. If you wanna run with PuGs expect chaos.

[Ulmius]

Talk about missing everything. I'm talking about personal logs. You don't need to upload the logs to find out. You can ask him and boom you know.

 

I've said it before I'll say it again. That's what you get for running a PuG. You don't get people on the bleeding edge and to try to alienate that group of people is wrong. You want elite action stick to guild runs. If you wanna run with PuGs expect chaos.

 

On the flip side, if you want to run with a group where accountability has no bearing on the group and the only thing that matters is having a good time, then run with a group of friends.

 

The reason your argument of numbers only matter when you run with a guild does not work is because when you join a pug, the goal isn't specifically to run with anonymous people to have fun. The goal of a pug is complete the FP or OP. Since the goal of the pug group is completing the dungeon, saying "run with a guild if you care about others performance" is not the equivalent of "run with friends if you only care about fun".

 

I see people say what you try to say and think it has equal arguing power, but the fact is, both statements don't have equal power in the debate. If the goal of a pug was to only have a good time and not worrying about if the group can complete the dungeon, then I would say you are right. However that is not the case. If anything, I would say view-able metrics matter more in a pug because you have no idea what quality of players will be in that group, but each player wants to complete the dungeon. Since each player wants to win, having the ability to evaluate the performance of everyone in the group is important so that instead of having the group fall apart completely if they cannot beat a boss because of low output, it would be better for the group as a whole to know who exactly is limiting the group's ability to complete it. When they have accurate, reliable data to make the most logical decision as to who that player is, they can remove that player and replace him/her with someone that can help the group complete it.

[wyvernmonarch]

i support providing combat logs

[GalacticKegger]

On the flip side, if you want to run with a group where accountability has no bearing on the group and the only thing that matters is having a good time, then run with a group of friends.

 

The reason your argument of numbers only matter when you run with a guild does not work is because when you join a pug, the goal isn't specifically to run with anonymous people to have fun. The goal of a pug is complete the FP or OP. Since the goal of the pug group is completing the dungeon, saying "run with a guild if you care about others performance" is not the equivalent of "run with friends if you only care about fun".

 

I see people say what you try to say and think it has equal arguing power, but the fact is, both statements don't have equal power in the debate. If the goal of a pug was to only have a good time and not worrying about if the group can complete the dungeon, then I would say you are right. However that is not the case. If anything, I would say view-able metrics matter more in a pug because you have no idea what quality of players will be in that group, but each player wants to complete the dungeon. Since each player wants to win, having the ability to evaluate the performance of everyone in the group is important so that instead of having the group fall apart completely if they cannot beat a boss because of low output, it would be better for the group as a whole to know who exactly is limiting the group's ability to complete it. When they have accurate, reliable data to make the most logical decision as to who that player is, they can remove that player and replace him/her with someone that can help the group complete it.

So if someone running in your pug either has their meters and logs turned off or refuses to share their numbers, does it matter that they saved the party because their damage was obvious and only outdone by their awareness? Or would they get the boot because they don't use them, regardless of how no one cared to learn how good they really were? Edited March 19, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Ulmius]

So if someone running in your pug either has their meters and logs turned off or refuses to share their numbers, does it matter that they saved the party because their damage was obvious and only outdone by their awareness? Or would they get the boot because they don't use them, regardless of how good they really were?

 

Exactly my point. Without data to give the ability to make a smart decision as to who is the culprit that is hindering the group from completing the dungeon, then that group will either dissolve or they may end up removing the wrong player.

[Esproc]

If you join up with a PuG and can't complete the Operation's last/second to last Boss and decide to throw someone out after, what forcing?, a log check to determine "the weakest link" that is "responsible" then spam for a replacement to the spot vacated, who will really want to join you?

 

I wouldn't, for various reasons as well, and I am normally helpful, but where did that spot go?, who's in charge? what's the attitude? and why oh why should I lose the beginning of an Operation that I can run w/guild/friends and do completely?

 

I support a L2P game without the AI telling me what I should do next, or how I should do anything with my characters, that's why I have a brain to think with.

[Seregul]

I wasn't clear. What I posted was an example of communication that won't be in the game without live logs. I don't consider what I posted as 'griefing' either.

 

It is simply annoying communication that the game is better without it.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

[GalacticKegger]

Exactly my point. Without data to give the ability to make a smart decision as to who is the culprit that is hindering the group from completing the dungeon, then that group will either dissolve or they may end up removing the wrong player.

IMHO the moment a PUG leader disallows someone access to their party because they choose not to share their personal logs is the moment the log's use has become abuse. If I'm ever in that situation, I'll lie up front about being ok with sharing my log after the instance, then leave once the last loots have been disbursed. If a prerequisite to play is to share logs after every boss fight, then I'll bid everyone a good day and simply leave. Would I be missing out on a chance to gain XP, rep & lootz? Yep. Will it cause me grief to miss it? Nope. An abyssmal raider doesn't need logs to prove it, just like an accomplished raider doesn't need logs to prove it.

 

Combat logs are a necessity for serious end game progression. PUGs aren't serious end game progression ... they're just PUGs. If someone is truly serious about progressing through end game then they won't be pugging to get there.

Edited March 19, 2012 by GalacticKegger