PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[DragonAgeOrgins]

You've just exposed yourself as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. You thought people concerned about beating enrage timers were doing heroics? No.

 

 

Here's the difference between me and you, and the difference between those that want meters and those that don't want meters :

 

-If I was in a raid and doing 30% less dps than someone else with the same gear, I would want to know about it. I would want to figure out what I'm doing wrong and how I can improve. I would want to perform the best I can and contribute as much as possible to help my group succeed.

 

-If you were in a raid and doing 30% less dps than someone else with the same gear, you would worry about people finding out. You want this information to be hidden because you don't want to have to put any effort in to improvement, and don't want the peer pressure to play better. You believe that 'doing your part' in a raid is simply filling a slot.

 

You have just exposed yourself as a person who likes to make wild claims-See..I can do it too, does it make it more true that I said it.

 

You would want to know, but you do not speak for million people on this game. Even this poll shows MOST people don't want logs. Pretty much your saying If I don't want combat logs. I must suck and not playing for reals..

 

Because internet gaming is so serious. I mean if someone does DPS 2 POINTS and no one is around to catch that, lecture him and then tell him which site to go to to get most out of his damage.

 

It's not "Needed" people are clearing raids and heroics just fine. You've gotten used to it in wow, but their are a casual bunch who don't sit at PC all day, and want to play the game as it was meant, not for logs but for fun.

 

I believe I'm doing my part? this is a game. If I show up, it's not for you. It's for me, it's because I like play video games and you happen to be in a group I am in, so if that's filling a slot then I suppose I am. Maybe I just like play the game?

[HolePuncher]

Pretty much your saying If I don't want combat logs. I must suck and not playing for reals..

 

Yes, I am saying this. But it's totally your choice to play that way and I take no issue with it.

 

You've gotten used to it in wow, but their are a casual bunch who don't sit at PC all day, and want to play the game as it was meant, not for logs but for fun.

 

Not having logs/meters prevents me from playing the game the way I want to play.

 

But, I don't see how including logs/meters prevents you from playing the game you want to play.

[Krojack]

Voted NO and here's why.....

 

For all the good a Combat Log could be used for by a player, for the majority it will be just another way for them to stroke their Virtual Ego. We have enough people who whip out their ePeen at every available opportunity and wave it around why give them more opportunity to do so.

 

Kinda like you did in this post?

 

I'm 100% sure there will be a combat log in this game in the near future. People should just stop this crap and making up excuses as to why it's good or bad. It's there as a pure information tool to help people see what just happened and stop wondering why they just fell over dead or how much damage they just took.

[DaxRendar]

But, I don't see how including logs/meters prevents you from playing the game you want to play.

 

"And that is why you fail..."

 

Seriously, as someone who both supports Personal Combat Logs as they are implemented and the possible inclusion of a "Combat Data Viewable by Operations Leader" checkbox in the future, I understand the desire for metrics and logs for data analysis by a certain portion of the community.

 

The fact that you can't acknowledge how meters/logs change the game, the community, outlooks and perceptions is what is holding you back.

 

-They are abused and misused quite frequently by people who have no clue what they are really looking at.

-They are used for cyber-bullying, "e-peen stroking" and creating a competitive environment in a cooperative game mode - something some people simply don't want to deal with and is certainly against the intent of the designers even in "that other game" otherwise scoreboards would be built into the game and display at the end of raids.

-They are not in fact "needed" for challenging content, as they actually make the game easier not harder by providing a much more complete view of what's happening rather than rewarding players with Situational Awareness and Crisis Managment/Problem Solving Skills.

 

This isn't to say they don't provide benefits, but you will get much farther trying to convince people to support your point-of-view if you show at least some small amount of capacity to see their point of view or acknowledge or mitigate their concerns.

 

Telling them to "just play the way they want to" is as effective and meaningful as me telling you that with Personal Logs you can play the way you want to, you just have to work for it by sharing and merging Parses after every fight.

Edited March 18, 2012 by DaxRendar

[belgarth]

I love this argument the most. Notice, how people wanting combat logs/and recount always say "I want it for my personal damage" then people thought we were getting personal combat logs, and complained they wanted "Group Damage"..

 

By finding a weak spot. You mean by posting the numbers so EVERYONE can see who did the most damage. Focusing on nothing else, this tunnel vision of being the one with best damage. By coach, I assume you mean tell them to copy and paste cookie cutter build and rotation. Because who need's to be unique.

 

Nothing more then I like then turning a game into work. I hope we can get spread sheets of the best build's soon.

I said nothing about who did the most damage at all. Stop putting words in my mouth. I do not care who does the most damage I care about finding weak spots in the group and helping them to improve there numbers. I also said nothing about specs I said rotations. If the entire raids damage done are a few % apart, then all is good. But if one is lagging behind why should we not point out ways to improve his damage

[Andryah]

I'm 100% sure there will be a combat log in this game in the near future. People should just stop this crap and making up excuses as to why it's good or bad. It's there as a pure information tool to help people see what just happened and stop wondering why they just fell over dead or how much damage they just took.

 

You do know that this thread topic is about public vs private logs, yes??

 

Most people who have responded to this thread are OK with private combat logging that they can share with others if they want to.

 

It is the minority that want public logs, and frankly while there has been flaming and verbal abuse by both sides in this thread, the minority has been way more abusive, demanding, and egotistical about the discussion.

 

Bioware has released their 1.2 patch notes on PTS, and it clearly states that they are providingf private combat logging (which gives an individual all they need to self-improve) NOT public logging (which many people object to because of the player on player abuse it enables). The individual can freely share their log with anyone they choose (outside of the game, and via a parser).

 

The OP wanted people to vote for public logs. The vote has been running for more then a week now and the majority do not want public logging. Bioware has published what the are doing (which negates even the debate over what they have been saying they would do).

 

There is nothing more to debate here other then whose ego is bigger.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Andryah

[HolePuncher]

Oh I hate arguing on the internet.

[MasterFeign]

It's a bit interesting too because combat logs help with DPS right, but if you're fighting a boss that has a bit of a puzzle mechanic (say Soa for example), the amount of DPS laid out is irrelevant. So I could understand a guild leader wanting to help his/her guildmates, but it could also be the wrong thing being looked at.

 

If Bioware does bring out combat logs though, I'd want more boss fights to have puzzle mechanics so that it merely doesn't come down to some sort of tank and spank.

 

This goes part and parcel with the segregation that might occur. Whereas it might be just a communication (Vent etc) problem if pugs are made, it can still be quite easy to down a hard mode boss with less than tionese gear (for example), as long as the technique is right.

Edited March 18, 2012 by MasterFeign

[belgarth]

It's a bit interesting too because combat logs help with DPS right, but if you're fighting a boss that has a bit of a puzzle mechanic (say Soa for example), the amount of DPS laid out is irrelevant. So I could understand a guild leader wanting to help his/her guildmates, but it could also be the wrong thing being looked at.

 

If Bioware does bring out combat logs though, I'd want more boss fights to have puzzle mechanics so that it merely doesn't come down to some sort of tank and spank.

 

I am all for fights with more puzzle type mechanics, tank and spanks are so boring. Just serve to inflate people egos.

[DarthKhaos]

creating a competitive environment in a cooperative game mode

This says it all right here. This is why I vote against public logs and for private ones.

 

 

I said nothing about who did the most damage at all. Stop putting words in my mouth. I do not care who does the most damage I care about finding weak spots in the group and helping them to improve there numbers. I also said nothing about specs I said rotations. If the entire raids damage done are a few % apart, then all is good. But if one is lagging behind why should we not point out ways to improve his damage

Logs does not tell you that his spec or rotation or stat allocation is wrong. Talking to the player, finding out what he is or is not doing and what is his spec does.

Edited March 18, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Matte_Black]

"...creating a competitive environment in a cooperative game mode..."

 

I think this is the important line of distinction and one the developers are aware of and reacting to. I think most people are fine with people playing competitively and allowing them the tools to do that but, SWTOR appears to have focused on a different playstyle and, along with a probable majority of it's players, would like to stop short of flavoring the culture of this game with alot of importance on competition and metrics.

 

They would seem to be defining theorycrafting, parsing and other analysis of the metrics as activities that are parallel to gameplay but, not truly part of what they are trying to offer. I agree with their apparent philosophy and announced methods.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Snoodmaster]

Logs does not tell you that his spec or rotation or stat allocation is wrong. Talking to the player, finding out what he is or is not doing and what is his spec does.

 

Talking to the player does not tell you if his spec or rotation or stat allocation is effective or not. Comparing his results to the results of others or comparing his results to expected results does. And for that you need his results in an objective and measurable fashion.

 

You can't just ask a guy if he thinks his dps is good or if he feels like his spec is doing well. You have to get specific data that can be quantified and measured. Otherwise all you are doing is guessing.

 

If you are ok with that, fine. But other people are not ok with just guessing because it is inaccurate and would rather have something better to make decisions and give advice.

[Andryah]

Enterprising forum members now have parsers coming online for the combat log on the PTS

 

More info here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=364068

[Vraesh]

No.

The last thing I need is a 12 year with too much free time on his/her hands and a power complex telling me I'm doing 0.05 dps below nominal.

F That.

[sumfizz]

I vote NO. Unnecessary.

[Enkenon]

No.

The last thing I need is a 12 year with too much free time on his/her hands and a power complex telling me I'm doing 0.05 dps below nominal.

F That.

 

Lord please no.

 

+1

[sumfizz]

No.

The last thing I need is a 12 year with too much free time on his/her hands and a power complex telling me I'm doing 0.05 dps below nominal.

F That.

 

I wish I could UP vote this 1000 times.

[Seregul]

No.

The last thing I need is a 12 year with too much free time on his/her hands and a power complex telling me I'm doing 0.05 dps below nominal.

F That.

 

I lol'd.

[DarthKhaos]

Talking to the player does not tell you if his spec or rotation or stat allocation is effective or not. Comparing his results to the results of others or comparing his results to expected results does. And for that you need his results in an objective and measurable fashion.

 

You can't just ask a guy if he thinks his dps is good or if he feels like his spec is doing well. You have to get specific data that can be quantified and measured. Otherwise all you are doing is guessing.

 

If you are ok with that, fine. But other people are not ok with just guessing because it is inaccurate and would rather have something better to make decisions and give advice.

If you are genuinely trying to help him/her improve they will. But if you are trying to find out as justification for a boot then you're on your own. I think you've made it clear which you want to do in the previous posts.

[Stupiddrummer]

No.

The last thing I need is a 12 year with too much free time on his/her hands and a power complex telling me I'm doing 0.05 dps below nominal.

F That.

 

so, the idea that this is going to be the only type of person utilizing combat data is what's ruining it for the rest of us.

 

Maybe instead of perpetuating stereotypes you could learn a little more about the benefits of using combat data.

 

Or at least learn to recognize and respect that not everybody plays the same way as you.

[Ayble]

The first page and a half of comments on your Poll code page did nothing but help the people against Full combat logs. No one want to deal with that much garbage, and these are the people who WANT the logs, they are just reinforcing the argument that the only reason people want them in is for griefing.

[Tronzax]

I've seen some in this thread say, "There are some people out there that will use combat logs and damage meters as a way to discriminate, abuse, or mistreat others . Because it can happen, we shouldn't have it in the game."

 

Well so far in this game on my server I've seen some of that happening already. Except it wasn't from dps. I've seen people send shouts saying you need to have at least full tionese or purple mod equivalent in your gear to join their group. I've had people in my guild get booted from a group because they were inspected and the group saw they had a few green and blue mods. Since some people discriminate with the mod item level, should they remove mods from the game? Should they remove the ability to inspect people? I mean, some people discriminate when they see someone's gear, so surely going off the logic of some people in this thread, they MUST remove the ability to inspect others.

 

The other thing I've seen people get kicked from the group is because they had low hp. A dps literally got kicked out of his group without being inspected because the leader saw he had 12k hp. Having that low amount of hp means he was probably a fresh 50 with low gear. Since someone discriminated and griefed that player, should they remove the ability to see the amount of HP someone has? I mean someone griefed someone because of it, so we have to remove it. Can't let people have an avenue to grief people.

 

Those are actual events that transpired on my server. (Shadowhand)

 

Following the logic of not having meters because some people will grief other players, we MUST remove the ability to inspect other players and we MUST remove that ability to see how many HP a player has because some people will see the gear or hp of another player and discriminate or grief that player. It only makes sense doesn't it?

Edited March 19, 2012 by Tronzax

[EJedi]

No...

[Dkzero]

No combat logs please.

[Snoodmaster]

If you are genuinely trying to help him/her improve they will. But if you are trying to find out as justification for a boot then you're on your own. I think you've made it clear which you want to do in the previous posts.

 

Some will, and some won't. I've run into both groups before. Sometimes people want to improve and are willing to take advice and do whatever is necessary. Sometimes people really like their spec/rotation, even though it is clearly subpar, and will fight tooth and nail to keep it. Sometimes people just don't like being told what to do, even if what they are being told is correct. And sometimes people lie so that they can go to an operation that they really aren't ready for. I can't always tell when someone is lying and I really do need to; because if they aren't performing, it would be irresponsible to punish everyone else just to help one person out.

 

The problem is that you CANNOT TELL THAT HE NEEDS HELP until you see what he's actually doing. If he thinks he's fine, he's not going to ask for help. If he is stubborn and doesn't want to change, he's not going to ask for help. If he just wants to go to an operation that he is unqualified for and doesn't care about the effect his actions have on others, he's not going to ask for help. Sure, most people are fairly decent and only a small percentage will do this. But you only need 1 person underperforming to keep everyone else from succeeding.

 

 

As far as my previous posts go, I'm pretty sure I've made it clear that I'm willing to help people when time and circumstance warrant. But I just cannot do it every time and often it would be irresponsible of me to do so.

• When you have other people relying on you to get things going smoothly and on time, you just have to let the guy who isn't contributing go so that everyone else can get things done.
  
• When it's midnight and people have work the next day, you can't keep wiping or take thirty minutes to explain to the new guy how to gear up and spec correctly. That wouldn't be fair to everyone else in the group.
  
• When it's the third or fourth wipe because the boss enraged at 5%, it's not fair to everyone who is doing good dps to keep the guy doing half of the dps he is supposed to be doing in the raid.
  

Edited March 19, 2012 by Snoodmaster