Drewser Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I can't believe James Ohlen is the main decision maker behind the combat log issue when he's making statements like that. He's basically telling us that we, as paying customers, will have to do extra work which takes time, money, and resources (do you really think a website which will host and analyze your combat log parses is going to be built overnight?) to gauge/analyze metrics which should be available to us in the first place. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a good chunk of that $14.99 I fork over to you guys every month supposed to be invested in resources to create such a system for us? Adding insult to injury, how hypocritical can you get when you're refusing to give us the tools that you are dependent upon on daily basis to keep this game running? I just can't wait for the moment when the community is done hashtagging all of the .tor files in the asset folder so we can discover every variable name and other functionalities so we won't have to depend on your lousy releases to get things done ourselves. The game has been out for barely three months and we already have figured out every damage/weight modifier on almost every ability. We just want data to verify our hypotheses. I also don't like to be designated or thrown into the category of a "super-elite" group because of our demand of a convenient system, that is a native within the game (not third-party), to scientifically gauge our performance? Is he insane? Or is he simply catering to the casuals who are scared to see their own performance? It's a bit of both IMO. This fear-mongering that an all-encompassing combat log will ruin the game and other baseless idiocy will be the downfall of this game: no real combat logs; no macros; no DPS-meters. You simply can't build an MMO and not implement such staple features. LOL! Hyperbole at its best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) So every poster in this thread that had a bad experience compared to the 10 million subscribers WoW still has..hmmmmmmmmm. There are 3 billion chinese in China, I am sure most are not enjoying the pleasures of a hot economy and a free society but they still live there... Edited March 15, 2012 by Blloodbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) i'm sorry but this one is just bugging me so i have to jump on it...... after all these post saying you only accept infallible evidence you jump in with a "WoW has 10 million players therefor 10 million people love combat logs" post. sorry that one just bugged the hell out of me and had to point it out. right, 10 million people either love combat logs, have learned to co-exist with a culture of facts and empirical data, or are completely ignorant of the numbers and still manage to play. edit; if the culture was that bad, WoW wouldn't be boasting such impressive numbers. Edited March 15, 2012 by Stupiddrummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediElf Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/02/02/ol-grumpy-and-the-specter-of-pointless-elitism/5 Even WOW, seeks to clean it's own house. This is well worth the read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 One comment or question if Wow is the best and you enjoy that game then why are you playing SWTOR? Just curious. WoW is the game SWTOR wants to be. I wish that weren't the case, but it is. I play SWTOR because i like Star Wars. I would enjoy the game even more if combat logs and dmg metrics existed. Especially since i play dps, i want more depth behind my efforts besides "shoot at thing, it dies." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 right, 10 million people either love combat logs, have learned to co-exist with a culture of facts and empirical data, or are completely ignorant of the numbers and still manage to play. edit; if the culture was that bad they wouldn't be boasting such impressive numbers. co-existing does not mean like nor does it mean acceptance. as previously mentioned and can use that analogy in a number of places... There are people that co-exist with rules or "things of practice" that are in the majority that do not like it. A few even escape the horrors... I am sure those kids from Uganda that were kidnapped and turned in to child soldiers "co-existed" with that fact too, but you think they like it? How about the little girls that were turned in to sex slaves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 How about the little girls that were turned in to sex slaves? dude. tangent much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthKhaos Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Because personal improvement is only part of the reason for having logs. There's also group improvement, and having purely personal logs makes that aspect more difficult than it needs to be. But if everyone improves personally then the group improvement is in teamwork which the logs is useless with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 dude. tangent much? DUDE, keep up with current events much? Ever hear of Uganda and Kony ?(all over the news lately thanks to viral You Tube video) So, nope not a tangent at all, just merely pointing out just because people co-exist with something does not mean they like it. That comment was also in relationship with kids being turned in to child soldiers... see the aformentioned Kony and Uganda comment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esproc Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Actually it does change, because the whole community will change around the non-combat log players. Thing will get really mean, really fast, and PUGs will become a distant dream. Eventually things will get so out of control that the Devs may have to streamline every single talent, and all classes into one 'no fail' set of stats, that way new players wont get so frustrated with 'making mistakes'. Abilities will be reduced to only those that are 'useful' or the highest damage output. Then comes the LFD and LFR because new and old content will just rot away. Then comes the teir badge gear, and the teir badge grind, and then it feels less like a game....and more of a stats calculation to max level. Nothing changes? No, sadly, everything changes. Because it will be all about the metrics, all the time. In short it will become Clone WoW, so why then do they desire a second game that is already out there? Is it just that so many people like this game, but don't like it because it is not the same as what they played? This is SW:TOR, a story based game, by a different company. You got your personal meter/crutch/AI telling you what to do next. Let it rest. Play your desired way with your friends, create your own guild, meter each others epeen or whatever, but leave the rest of us who actually enjoy THIS game be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulmius Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Anti-meter people are anti-group. Here's why. If you like to go to the batting cages, you have every right to swing the bat however you want or you could even just bunt the ball on every pitch the machine throws at you. Do you know why? Because it's a single player activity. The second you join a team, recreational or not, the players on the team have every right to keep track of your stats, critique you, judge you, and ultimately decide if you are going to be a starter or someone that rides the pine. Do you know why that is? Because your performance effects the team. This is something they fail to realize. In team sports or team games, your performance matters to every person in the group. When you join a team, unless every person in that team is your friend, you have no right to tell them they are not allowed to keep track of your stats. YOU decided to join a TEAM activity where YOUR performance matters. If you don't like having others judge your performance on... your actual performance, then stick to single player games or exclusively play with your group of friends. Because as soon as you join a pug or a raid where everyone isn't your friend, then your performance is on display whether you like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 My question is this. The game is so simple and easy to understand, are people that limited in their abilities of observation on what works and what doesnt? Personally my combat log is personal observation... If I can drop an elite and 2 strongs at my level then I feel confident in my DPS/Healing, if I can drop at least one champion level mob at my level (some are far stronger than others), I feel confident in my DPS/Healing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediElf Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I'll post this again. http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/02/02/ol-grumpy-and-the-specter-of-pointless-elitism/5 I think it's quite relevant, to the ongoing discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) I'll post this again. http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/02/02/ol-grumpy-and-the-specter-of-pointless-elitism/5 I think it's quite relevant, to the ongoing discussion... jerks are jerks. ii dont see what it has to do with numbers. Edited March 15, 2012 by Stupiddrummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) My question is this. The game is so simple and easy to understand, are people that limited in their abilities of observation on what works and what doesnt? Personally my combat log is personal observation... If I can drop an elite and 2 strongs at my level then I feel confident in my DPS/Healing, if I can drop at least one champion level mob at my level (some are far stronger than others), I feel confident in my DPS/Healing... well, you know how at the end of a Warzone, it tells you your total damage/healing? Now imagine if you could see that all the time. Edited March 15, 2012 by Stupiddrummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Anti-meter people are anti-group. Here's why. If you like to go to the batting cages, you have every right to swing the bat however you want or you could even just bunt the ball on every pitch the machine throws at you. Do you know why? Because it's a single player activity. The second you join a team, recreational or not, the players on the team have every right to keep track of your stats, critique you, judge you, and ultimately decide if you are going to be a starter or someone that rides the pine. Do you know why that is? Because your performance effects the team. This is something they fail to realize. In team sports or team games, your performance matters to every person in the group. When you join a team, unless every person in that team is your friend, you have no right to tell them they are not allowed to keep track of your stats. YOU decided to join a TEAM activity where YOUR performance matters. If you don't like having others judge your performance on... your actual performance, then stick to single player games or exclusively play with your group of friends. Because as soon as you join a pug or a raid where everyone isn't your friend, then your performance is on display whether you like it or not. You entire statement is false from the first line... I group with guildies and pugs all the time and I completely disagree with the use of combat logs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoodmaster Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 But if everyone improves personally then the group improvement is in teamwork which the logs is useless with. First, you don't know if everyone is improving personally unless u can see the overall group improvements. If the group is flailing and you ask everyone "are you doing what you need to do?" They will just say, "yeah we checked our logs and they look fine." Then you'll have to set up a website for them to individually upload their logs, write a parser that can correlate all those logs and try to figure a way to spot the guy who injects false data into the log. This takes a lot more time and effort than each person having a single log they can parse and crosscheck against the results that at least one other person in the raid has. Instead of 8 people all figuring out how to work a parser, you just need one or two. Second, logs are not useless for improving teamwork. I'm not sure how you can make that assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lollermittens Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I'll post this again. http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/02/02/ol-grumpy-and-the-specter-of-pointless-elitism/5 I think it's quite relevant, to the ongoing discussion... This is completely irrelevant to the discussion because this article is directly related to DPS meters, not a combat log. Even a combat log which would show everyone else's damage would be a difficult tool to utilize to justify to kick someone out of the group (unless their performance is abysmal). Please, let's not confuse the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 well, you know how at the end of a Warzone, it tells you your total damage/healing? Now imagine if you could see that all the time. Yes and now imagine that you can pick and choose partners in a WZ match and the new person to PVP comes in sucks royally... "Ohhh according to this log, you suck, sorry you cant join. We need real players" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Yes and now imagine that you can pick and choose partners in a WZ match and the new person to PVP comes in sucks royally... "Ohhh according to this log, you suck, sorry you cant join. We need real players" again, its not the log that said this. A person is saying this. People are the problem. Not logs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 again, its not the log that said this. A person is saying this. People are the problem. Not logs. Which is true... We cant control people but we can control the surrounding enviroment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Which is true... We cant control people but we can control the surrounding enviroment. So we take away the tools from everyone? Even the people that will use it responsibly and for the good of the community? that hardly seems fair. Let a few bad apples ruin it for the rest. Are you that willing to give into jerk players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I think what bioware is trying to avoid is people using statistics to argue that a player is bad, thus dividing the community. The community is already in shambles due to the high amount of both newbies and sour-vets. there are some cool people in the mmo world, but there are a great deal of people wanting to shout "learn to XYZ baddy!" This kind of sentiment will only be amplified if given omniscient logs , since sour-vets will use statistics to make a case for calling someone bad, and still not offer the newb any advise on how to improve. If you think that the logs will be used in a manner to improve the community, you have far too much faith. That is why single combat logs are sufficient to improve your play, and can be shared with those whom hope to improve your play through advisement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esproc Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 again, its not the log that said this. A person is saying this. People are the problem. Not logs. Yes, you are correct in that people are the problems, but it is the logs that they abuse that facilitates this trend. I have already seen much of these people, in "theoretical discussion", that follow this type of problematic behavior upon reading this very thread. If you can truly prove that my "theoretical observations" are truly incorrect, then I am sorry, but I will ask you to please point them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoodmaster Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Yes and now imagine that you can pick and choose partners in a WZ match and the new person to PVP comes in sucks royally... "Ohhh according to this log, you suck, sorry you cant join. We need real players" I'm curious about what exactly you think will happen when ranked warzones are introduced. You really think people aren't going to pick and choose who they group with in premade OPs for those? Cause I certainly don't expect they'll just going in randomly with whoever types /join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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