PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Matte_Black]

Like many things in society, acceptable standards change. As the vast majority of players get better gear, their average dps goes up and so does the standard of minimal dps. People grow accustomed to seeing higher numbers and if you are in the same quality of gear as someone else but putting out dps that people were doing the tier before, then there's a problem. For example, if people in tionese gear are doing 1k dps and people in rakata are doing 1500 dps - and you go into that group with rakata gear and doing 1k dps, then there's a problem. What you are doing isn't normal and you are considered a deviant which is why people make comments.

 

This is why, there should be a value scaled to what makes the encounter challenging and beatable.

 

Weren't we being lectured about how fallible humans and their subjective opinions can be a few pages back? Now all of the sudden the hard-core raiders should be setting the bar based on their individual build and gear progressions as opposed to the game's developers who wrote the content and have access to all the data on massive scales? Not to mention, a vested interest in the success of the game as opposed to how that one player might want to have everyone around him optimized.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Matte_Black

[genesiser]

And finally "The better you are at something, no matter the activity, you'll enjoy that activity more" is in fact a fallacy. I'm a veritable god at tic tac toe. I don't play it anymore because it offers no challenge as I've mastered the game. I hate to break this news to all the so-called "hardcore uberleet raiders" out there but gear-grind largely scripted boss encounters are nothing more than an advanced version of tic tac toe and "tools" like meters and DBM addons just lead to the content becoming boring even faster.

 

First off, if you are saying things like meters lead to content becoming easier and boring faster, then you admit that meters make players better. If meters weren't making players better, then the fights wouldn't become easier for them. I'm glad at least one anti meter person admits that. The part about dbm I agree with, it does make content easier, but at the same time it forces devs to make more dynamic fights.

 

Second, you say you've become so good at tic tac toe that there is no challenge for you. Congratulations, you've reached the apex of tic tac toe and can slaughter any and all competition so it's become boring for you. Luckily very few people reach that point so it's not a problem. However as soon as you find a rival, that rival will spark that love for the game and you'll enjoy it again. This leads me to my next point.

 

While true that raiding is pretty much an advanced version of tic tac toe and the content can be easy, that's why people that raid are always clamoring for tougher fights. That way they can get the challenge they desire and not become bored with it. As you said, challenging yourself is fun and destroying things becomes boring. But in the end, isn't that a good part of the damage meters?

 

And finally, when you think about it, once you've gotten to the point of being able to one shot all the raid bosses in said tier, it starts to lose it's fun because it's not challenging anymore. Meters can prolong the fun for the raid because it adds the challenge of trying to compete with other dpsers to see who does the best dps and in turn, adds longevity to the raid because it adds that sense of competition - which you admitted with your tic tac toe analogy - adds fun to the game.

Edited March 15, 2012 by genesiser

[DarthKhaos]

Like many things in society, acceptable standards change. As the vast majority of players get better gear, their average dps goes up and so does the standard of minimal dps. People grow accustomed to seeing higher numbers and if you are in the same quality of gear as someone else but putting out dps that people were doing the tier before, then there's a problem. For example, if people in tionese gear are doing 1k dps and people in rakata are doing 1500 dps - and you go into that group with rakata gear and doing 1k dps, then there's a problem. What you are doing isn't normal and you are considered a deviant which is why people make comments.

So you're saying even though 1K DPS is all that's needed to beat the encounter I have to push 1.5K dps because I have the better gear instead of say try out some stuff I couldn't afford to because I needed to push the envelope just to succeed or just take it easy because I know I can make it because I got the better gear?

 

That's the same BS I was seeing going on in WoW. People were demanding insane DPS requirements for content that didn't need it and you wonder why people weren't doing the content? That kind of behavior isn't fun.

Edited March 15, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Snoodmaster]

As much as some keep pointing out that there is a need to tell "who is not pulling their weight", I'd be interested to know how those concerned about it define "pulling their weight".

 

Since I believe I'm the first person to use that specific phrase, and I don't anyone else has articulated their answer quite this way, here's what it means to me.

 

1. Should everyone be doing the same DPS or an even share of what it takes to complete the op?
    
   
2. Is it possible for one group member to be overscaled for the challenge and take on too much of the weight where some could complain they are "hogging" the fights and targets? Do you correct their behavior or kick them?
    
   
3. Does one take into account opportunities to do damage, harder targets and other factors that can inflate or deflate DPS or other ratings?
    
   
4. Is pulling your weight more important than enjoying the game?
   

 

1.

To me, "pulling their weight" means doing the minimum personally required for a successful run. It doesn't matter what anyone else is doing. If you are doing less than the required minimum, then the group is carrying you. Which can be fine. We have all likely been carried by better levelled/geared groups at some points. But that's a decision to be made by the group and the people in the group about whether they are comfortable increasing the challenge and essentially running a 7.5man group. Sometimes they will be, and sometimes they won't, but it should be their choice.

 

2.

Again, it has nothing to do with the relative dps of others and everything to do with setting a minimum standard of competence and wanting everyone in the group to be above that level. Because if every individual member is above, then the group as a whole is competent, but if someone is below, then the group is less effective than it could be.

 

3.

The point of a combat log is that it shows those things. It shows if you were hitting the wrong target or stunned half the fight. And then you can explain the reason for not being as high on the meter and defend yourself with the truth.

 

4.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Personally I find the game less enjoyable, and a lot more frustrating, when the group is lagging because someone isn't playing as well as he should be.

 

 

The point isn't that people should be forced to pull their own weight. If a group wants to take a fresh 50 in greens into a hardmode operation, they are welcome to do so. We actually did that for 16man HM KP because we were missing a dps and would rather carry a guildie than pug someone. He had 12k hp at the start, died on every pull, and probably did less than half the average dps. Sure, we wiped a couple times to enrage timers that we wouldn't if he'd been replaced with one of our regular dps, but he's a friend and a guildie and we were ok with making that sacrifice. Most importantly though, it was our choice. It would be another thing entirely for him to show up and provide the same lackluster performance without us ever knowing about it. For us to grind through wipe and after wipe wondering why we were hitting enrage timers we normally didn't. That wouldn't be fair to us.

[Vankris]

That's the same BS I was seeing going on in WoW. People were demanding insane DPS requirements for content that didn't need it and you wonder why people weren't doing the content? That kind of behavior isn't fun.

 

this is true that people in wow have requirement for their raid sometimes way higher than the minimum needed.

 

because they want to make room for error, they want easier time, because they're bad them selves and are unaware of what the minimum are.

 

no matter

 

it's their group. They have the right to recruit anyone they damn please. If people have a no gnome policy, then no gnomes in their raid what ever, would you be protesting as well on the forum for virtual racism?

 

bottom line, make your own group, set your own recruiting policy and lead your own raid.

[genesiser]

This is why, there should be a value scaled to what makes the encounter challenging and beatable.

 

Weren't we being lectured about how fallible humans and their subjective opinions can be a few pages back? Now all of the sudden the hard-core raiders should be setting the bar based on their individual build and gear progressions as opposed to the game's developers who wrote the content and have access to all the data on massive scales? Not to mention, a vested interest in the success of the game as opposed to how that one player might want to have everyone around him optimized.

 

Unfortunately, that's not how societies work. People know that being fat is unhealthy and you shouldn't be obese, but in america's society where people are getting fatter each year, the acceptable level of obesity keeps going up. In the 60s being 200 lbs was extreme and today if someone is 200 lbs people don't bat an eyelash. The same thing occurs in an mmo. As the average person's dps rises, the minimal acceptable level of dps also rises. It doesn't matter if there is a number set by the devs as the minimal amount, because ultimately it's the society that sets the standards.

[Esproc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealCrucifer

 

However because SWTOR has no combat log, threat meter, dps meter...I can not gauge my output and Diversion only dropping a small % of threat is not doing enough when I am trying to maximize my DPS output...

 

.......................................................

 

and this, right here, is why people dont want threat meters, dps meters etc

 

if you are "good" WITH addons then you arent good. sorry, its true. youre having your hand held

 

if you are good WITHOUT anything propping you up, then you are good

 

 

and that ladies and gentlemen, is how you seperate the men from the WoW players

Edited March 15, 2012 by Esproc

[Matte_Black]

4.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Personally I find the game less enjoyable, and a lot more frustrating, when the group is lagging because someone isn't playing as well as he should be.

 

Enjoyment as defined by members of the group with some balance between individual preference and what the preponderence of the group prefers.

 

A group of players like yourself might be of one mind or there could be a whole variety of players with different feelings about what they enjoy among a group.

 

I'd imagine a more universally accepted enjoyable time would be challenging AND successful spent engaging in the elements of the game you find most rewarding. I am sure there are those who like challenging OR successful more. Still others who want the enconter's rewards or completion as fast as possible while still others care more about the story unfolding.

[Ulmius]

And finally, when you think about it, once you've gotten to the point of being able to one shot all the raid bosses in said tier, it starts to lose it's fun because it's not challenging anymore. Meters can prolong the fun for the raid because it adds the challenge of trying to compete with other dpsers to see who does the best dps and in turn, adds longevity to the raid because it adds that sense of competition - which you admitted with your tic tac toe analogy - adds fun to the game.

 

That was the part I found most fun when raiding in wow, competing with my group for top dps.

 

It's gotta burn that going knowing that he, an anti-meter person, unknowingly gave you one the best reasons for using damage meters; keeping raiding fun with competition when you have the raid on farm.

[DaxRendar]

First off, if you are saying things like meters lead to content becoming easier and boring faster, then you admit that meters make players better. If meters weren't making players better, then the fights wouldn't become easier for them. I'm glad at least one anti meter person admits that. The part about dbm I agree with, it does make content easier, but at the same time it forces devs to make more dynamic fights.

 

Meters can lead to players becoming better. It can also lead to players becoming much worse when they (a) stand in the fire rather than stop their precious cast and lose DPS (b) refuse to clear debuffs because it "costs" a GCD of DPS © get completely skewed perspectives on what PvE Content is there for (as you demostrate later in your post)

 

Second, you say you've become so good at tic tac toe that there is no challenge for you. Congratulations, you've reached the apex of tic tac toe and can slaughter any and all competition so it's become boring for you. Luckily very few people reach that point so it's not a problem. However as soon as you find a rival, that rival will spark that love for the game and you'll enjoy it again.

 

And here, you begin to fail. If you know anything about Game Design Theory, you will understand that the limited factors involved in Tic Tac Toe as it is designed mean that after a certain basic level of mastery every game will result in a draw making the whole exercise of playing pointless.

 

While true that raiding is pretty much an advanced version of tic tac toe and the content can be easy, that's why people that raid are always clamoring for tougher fights. That way they can get the challenge they desire and not become bored with it. As you said, challenging yourself is fun and destroying things becomes boring. But in the end, isn't that a good part of the damage meters?

 

And finally, when you think about it, once you've gotten to the point of being able to one shot all the raid bosses in said tier, it starts to lose it's fun because it's not challenging anymore. Meters can prolong the fun for the raid because it adds the challenge of trying to compete with other dpsers to see who does the best dps and in turn, adds longevity to the raid because it adds that sense of competition - which you admitted with your tic tac toe analogy - adds fun to the game.

 

When, after assuming a basic level of Competency, the vast majority of your Damage comes from your gear level rather than your performance, and "hardcore raiders" consume content and gear up so quickly that said fights become boring, meters are actually a huge part of the problem. You have taken what is inherently a cooperative activity and turned it into a competitive one merely to amuse yourself.

 

Let me ask you a few questions. Try to think about them and answer honestly.

 

-Which is more challenging: Topping a Meter against people who might not be as well-geared as you or beating an encounter wearing the lowest level of gear you possibly can?

 

-Who is the more "leet" raid group: "World First" kill on the latest endgame boss or beating said boss with the whole group wearing Crafted Blues (when the other group is in full T1)?

 

Meters have perverted the game and a segment of the playerbase. Challenge is there to be had in playing the game itself as designed. When you introduce a "competitve" or "metric-oriented" element into what is inherently a cooperative activity, you create an environment where people think it's acceptable to describe people as "baddies" and "being carried" on content the group is successfully completing, as a group, without issues.

 

Think about it.

[Matte_Black]

Unfortunately, that's not how societies work. People know that being fat is unhealthy and you shouldn't be obese, but in america's society where people are getting fatter each year, the acceptable level of obesity keeps going up. In the 60s being 200 lbs was extreme and today if someone is 200 lbs people don't bat an eyelash. The same thing occurs in an mmo. As the average person's dps rises, the minimal acceptable level of dps also rises. It doesn't matter if there is a number set by the devs as the minimal amount, because ultimately it's the society that sets the standards.

 

This society has not reached that point of overscaling as the accepted minimum. Also the point is on the table in regards to doing one's part in a group and the mechanisms that should support managing that in an, ideally, healthily functioning society. What you seem to be headed toward is defending minimums based on overscaling as opposed to what is needed to contribute to a successful effort. There is a lot of space between being considerate to the group effort being successful and bending to the dmands of people who only want to play with all factors optimized. In fact, that sounds an awful lot like elitism.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Atharyia]

Meters can lead to players becoming better. It can also lead to players becoming much worse when they (a) stand in the fire rather than stop their precious cast and lose DPS (b) refuse to clear debuffs because it "costs" a GCD of DPS © get completely skewed perspectives on what PvE Content is there for (as you demostrate later in your post)

 

 

Ah, but you see meters don't just tell the damage output. A smart person looks at the damage taken as well. Sure you have higher dps, but you took way more fire damage than everyone else. It's easy to tell who's cheesing meters and who's playing to their best potential.

[Snoodmaster]

Enjoyment as defined by members of the group with some balance between individual preference and what the preponderence of the group prefers.

 

A group of players like yourself might be of one mind or there could be a whole variety of players with different feelings about what they enjoy among a group.

 

I'd imagine a more universally accepted enjoyable time would be challenging AND successful spent engaging in the elements of the game you find most rewarding. I am sure there are those who like challenging OR successful more. Still others who want the enconter's rewards or completion as fast as possible while still others care more about the story unfolding.

 

My point is that you pose the question as dichotomy between "enjoying the game" and "pulling your weight." That is, the question seems to ask "Would you prefer to enjoy the game even if someone is not pulling their weight, or would you prefer that everyone pull their weight at the expense of the group's enjoyment?" I may be misreading, but I think that's what you meant to say.

 

That question, phrased that way, doesn't make sense. It assumes that the two are independent or exclusive in some way, when in reality for some groups to enjoy the game, everyone in the group needs to be pulling their own weight.

[genesiser]

Let me ask you a few questions. Try to think about them and answer honestly.

 

-Which is more challenging: Topping a Meter against people who might not be as well-geared as you or beating an encounter wearing the lowest level of gear you possibly can?

 

-Who is the more "leet" raid group: "World First" kill on the latest endgame boss or beating said boss with the whole group wearing Crafted Blues (when the other group is in full T1)?

 

 

Think about it.

 

1-A) Being the higher geared player should in theory be the one doing more dps. The challenge in that aspect is doing less than the guy with lowest level of gear. On the flip side, the guy with lower gear has the challenge of beating the guy in higher gear. While not impossible, if he really knows his class he can do it. Especially when the guy in higher gear is a bad player.

 

1-B) Of course beating an encounter with minimum gear will be harder. It forces those players to not make mistakes. If players are in poor gear and are beating hard content, then they are good players and they wouldn't have to worry about being made fun of with meters in the first place.

 

2) The world first guys are the ones going into the fight blind. They have to learn the encounter and learn the strategies. They in turn post strategies that enable the crafted blue guys to beat the boss. So in that case, the world first guys are the "leet" ones.

[DaxRendar]

That question, phrased that way, doesn't make sense. It assumes that the two are independent or exclusive in some way, when in reality for some groups to enjoy the game, everyone in the group needs to be pulling their own weight.

 

Yep, exactly.

 

And that's why many of us like PERSONAL, sharable Logs as a solution. You can seek out others who share your preferred playstyle and engage in it to your heart's content. You cannot impose it on others though like is regularly done in games with Group Meters.

[Matte_Black]

My point is that you pose the question as dichotomy between "enjoying the game" and "pulling your weight." That is, the question seems to ask "Would you prefer to enjoy the game even if someone is not pulling their weight, or would you prefer that everyone pull their weight at the expense of the group's enjoyment?" I may be misreading, but I think that's what you meant to say.

 

That question, phrased that way, doesn't make sense. It assumes that the two are independent or exclusive in some way, when in reality for some groups to enjoy the game, everyone in the group needs to be pulling their own weight.

 

They are two different things. The game can be enjoyed without pulling your weight and you can pull your weight in the game and not enjoy it. In general, they overlap but, I have certainly experienced each separately in my gaming career.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Pekish]

two server... exact same game

 

one server with damage meter

one server without

 

can you make a wild guess and "guesstimate" the life span of both of them

 

if the contet is challenging enough and well made the server without DPS will last way longer then the other one, if you dont see it you are just blind it's a question of logic not of inventing

 

to find the perfect built without matematic help take longer ergo content will be more challenging for a longer period ergo people will stay longer

 

so the problem is that the content right now it's too easy and even without the meter we cleaned it already and you want a Damage Meter? are you just crazy you want to make it shorter and everything that they will pull out shorter and shorter?

 

people keep having no clue.

[genesiser]

two server... exact same game

 

one server with damage meter

one server without

 

can you make a wild guess and "guesstimate" the life span of both of them

 

if the contet is challenging enough and well made the server without DPS will last way longer then the other one, if you dont see it you are just blind it's a question of logic not of inventing

 

to find the perfect built without matematic help take longer ergo content will be more challenging for a longer period ergo people will stay longer

 

so the problem is that the content right now it's too easy and even without the meter we cleaned it already and you want a Damage Meter? are you just crazy you want to make it shorter and everything that they will pull out shorter and shorter?

 

people keep having no clue.

 

In other words, "Meters make players better because they easily test out different builds, gear, and rotations, which leads them to performing better."

 

Becoming a better player is a bad thing? That's an odd thing to say.

Edited March 15, 2012 by genesiser

[DaxRendar]

1-A) Being the higher geared player should in theory be the one doing more dps. The challenge in that aspect is doing less than the guy with lowest level of gear. On the flip side, the guy with lower gear has the challenge of beating the guy in higher gear. While not impossible, if he really knows his class he can do it. Especially when the guy in higher gear is a bad player.

 

1-B) Of course beating an encounter with minimum gear will be harder. It forces those players to not make mistakes. If players are in poor gear and are beating hard content, then they are good players and they wouldn't have to worry about being made fun of with meters in the first place.

 

2) The world first guys are the ones going into the fight blind. They have to learn the encounter and learn the strategies. They in turn post strategies that enable the crafted blue guys to beat the boss. So in that case, the world first guys are the "leet" ones.

 

Thanks for both completely missing and proving my point

 

You have become so warped by meters that you can no longer see an inherently cooperative game mode as anything but competitive and it is an essential part of your enjoyment - so crucial in fact that you constantly seek to impose that playstyle on others.

 

Let me put it this way - If Blizzard or BioWare had intended Raiding to be competitive within groups by design, don't you think they would have included Scoreboards?

 

And remember, I'm not telling you not to play that way. If you want to, and can find like-minded people to do it with, go for it!

 

Just don't expect me to want it to be easy for you to pervert the game into that for others.

[DarthKhaos]

In other words, "Meters make players better because they easily test out different builds, gear, and rotations, which leads them to performing better."

This is debatable. Some people who focus on meters so much end up with tunnel vision. As long as the conditions are ideal they hit those sweet numbers they love so much. However if the conditions aren't you see they either die from not moving out of the fire (because they either didn't notice it or expect the healer to heal them through the dmg) or can't adapt and do less dps than someone who is more focus on the encounter than the numbers.

[Stupiddrummer]

two server... exact same game

 

one server with damage meter

one server without

 

can you make a wild guess and "guesstimate" the life span of both of them

 

if the contet is challenging enough and well made the server without DPS will last way longer then the other one, if you dont see it you are just blind it's a question of logic not of inventing

 

to find the perfect built without matematic help take longer ergo content will be more challenging for a longer period ergo people will stay longer

 

so the problem is that the content right now it's too easy and even without the meter we cleaned it already and you want a Damage Meter? are you just crazy you want to make it shorter and everything that they will pull out shorter and shorter?

 

people keep having no clue.

 

this is a content problem, not a dps meter problem.

[Snoodmaster]

Yep, exactly.

 

And that's why many of us like PERSONAL, sharable Logs as a solution. You can seek out others who share your preferred playstyle and engage in it to your heart's content. You cannot impose it on others though like is regularly done in games with Group Meters.

 

1. In a raid group of 8 or 16 people, the task of coordinating and syncing all those different personal logs becomes unreasonably high.

 

2. It is just as easy for a group of people who dislike logs to form an "anti-log" raid as it is for a group of people who like logs to create their own "pro-log" raid.

 

3. Having the logs public prevents people from sneaking into a "pro-log" raid and then lying about their performance with doctored logs or pretending to be unable to upload them. If everyone has a public log, then it's quickly obvious who's data has been tampered with.

[Vankris]

 

Let me put it this way - If Blizzard or BioWare had intended Raiding to be competitive within groups by design, don't you think they would have included Scoreboards?

 

 

http://www.wowprogress.com/

pretty big thing actually, race to world first really is a big thing, top guild have sponsor (logitech, razor) they participate to live event (blizzcon), people simply know their names (paragon, ensidia, blood legion...)

 

 

May i suggest an excellent video on that topic

http://www.racetoworldfirst.com/

[Ulmius]

They are two different things. The game can be enjoyed without pulling your weight and you can pull your weight in the game and not enjoy it. In general, they overlap but, I have certainly experienced each separately in my gaming career.

 

Whether you realize it or not, that is a VERY selfish thing to say. You are basically saying, "I'll play how I want and I don't care if the group suffers because of it." Are you telling me that the other players in your group are nothing but NPCs? Does it not matter to you that by you not pulling your weight you are ruining their experience?

[Stupiddrummer]

1. In a raid group of 8 or 16 people, the task of coordinating and syncing all those different personal logs becomes unreasonably high.

 

2. It is just as easy for a group of people who dislike logs to form an "anti-log" raid as it is for a group of people who like logs to create their own "pro-log" raid.

 

3. Having the logs public prevents people from sneaking into a "pro-log" raid and then lying about their performance with doctored logs or pretending to be unable to upload them. If everyone has a public log, then it's quickly obvious who's data has been tampered with.

 

4. If there is no problem in the raid, chances are, no one is going to be checking a log to flag the weaklings. AKA The logs will only really need to be consulted when an issue arises.