PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Stupiddrummer]

Because the positives that chat brings to the game far outweigh the negatives and it simply can't be removed or done "another way" to limit griefing.

 

The same can't be said about combat logs.

 

The comparison to chat is simply ridiculous.

 

The exact same CAN be said about combat logs.

 

They both bring positive features to the game, with the only drawback being that they both can be used to facilitate negative behavior.

 

So now you don't want combat logs because you think they dont bring ENOUGH positive things to the game?

Edited March 19, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[mangarrage]

Actually the poll is rendered useless now due to the fact that you can vote more then once, so after all that time the poll accomplishes nothing

[Ulmius]

The debate about chat logs vs damage meters proves my point about not responding to that post about inspecting people and seeing hp.

 

There's a chance they can win the argument in which it's an extreme example (chat logs) however when presented with a case that doesn't have as big of an impact, they can't win so they choose to ignore it.

[Drewser]

The exact same CAN be said about combat logs.

They both bring positive features to the game, with the only drawback being that they both can be used to facilitate negative behavior.

 

So now you don't want combat logs because you think they dont bring ENOUGH positive things to the game?

 

Wrong. I ask again, would this game have sold 2m+ copies and had 1.7m renew if there was no chat?

 

No matter what you post, you will never get by the fact that chat is far more important to an MMO than combat logs. Period. End of Story.

 

Finally, I am not against combat logs. I simply do not want wide open public logs. I'd prefer a toggle for our guild runs but barring that, I am not unhappy with Bioware's plan.

[NotDonnaReed]

A dps literally got kicked out of his group without being inspected because the leader saw he had 12k hp. Having that low amount of hp means he was probably a fresh 50 with low gear. Since someone discriminated and griefed that player, should they remove the ability to see the amount of HP someone has?

 

Another way to look at that situation is that the fresh 50 was griefing the other 7 people in the raid by showing up to an encounter he wasn't geared for and hoping no one would notice.

[Drewser]

Another way to look at that situation is that the fresh 50 was griefing the other 7 people in the raid by showing up to an encounter he wasn't geared for and hoping no one would notice.

 

Except for the fact that raids in normal mode can be completed with one fresh 50.

[Snoodmaster]

I don't begrudge you your pursuit of optimization but, the reason most people play this game is because they cover over all the numbers with pretty pictures and sounds and form those numeric underpinnings into a spectacle and pseudo-reality. Even more so because alot of those pictures and sounds are associated with Star Wars.

 

BioWare's art is keeping those numbers behind the curtain and representing them through interesting means.

 

Yes, the game runs on numbers but, they are not the show. Until, better ways exist to represent some of them, we'll see some on the main screen but, focusing on the inner workings of the game and reacting to those metrics is very far from the intention of this game.

 

Again, compare this game (and most RPGs) to FPS. Like every video game, an FPS is entirely numbers based. You may not know this, but the trajectory of every projectile is represented by a vector, every hit box is a set of matrices. The outcome of every shot is an equation. It's all math rendered in pretty graphics. But, in an FPS the numbers are entirely hidden from the player and are balanced so that player skill is more important than the number.

 

In an FPS, what weapon you use and what gear you wear is dependent on looks/playstyle because there are no numbers by which to judge which is better and ostensibly, all are balanced to be equal. You can't look at a guy using a shotgun in Call of Duty and say that he is more effective than the guy who like's sniper rifles.

 

That is not the case with an RPG like SWTOR. A rifle with +55 cunning is always better than a rifle with +33 cunning. Choosing between the two rifles is a simple math problem. Is 55 > 33? Saying that bioware does not intend people to read and interpret the math, or that the math does not matter at all is entirely untrue.

 

Granted, there are extremes to optimization that not every needs to go. I'm not saying that everyone has to run a spreadsheet with optimum dps calculations and swap out their mods to get the perfect balance of accuracy and crit. But even the average player still has to deal with the math and make decisions based on that math.

[Stupiddrummer]

Wrong. I ask again, would this game have sold 2m+ copies and had 1.7m renew if there was no chat?

 

No matter what you post, you will never get by the fact that chat is far more important to an MMO than combat logs. Period. End of Story.

 

Finally, I am not against combat logs. I simply do not want wide open public logs. I'd prefer a toggle for our guild runs but barring that, I am not unhappy with Bioware's plan.

 

look dude. this is silly. I am not in any way trying to argue that chat is useless. The fact that you keep thinking im advocating that is very telling.

 

My point is if you're going to focus on the negative behavior combat data allows for, you can't ignore other tools that also facilitate that exact same behavior.

 

The over-arching point is that it is the people who are responsible for their behaviors. Placing the blame on combat metrics is counter-productive to everybody.

 

The way they plan on implementing it sucks, imo. I want to switch out a mod, try my rotations, and know the effects of using said mod immediately. I am way too lazy to alt-tab out of my game to find a text file and load it into a parser.

 

With the current plan, i may check my dps output, like, once. Maybe once every few months. But what i would like is real time feedback, so i can know the difference changing out one itty bitty mod would make on my over all dps.

 

 

Edit; also, the decision by Bioware to implement limited combat metrics to compromise with people that simply wouldn't be bothered to use that information in the first place is very telling about the direction this game is going.

 

I really wanted to play a Star Wars MMO. Instead i got WoW with a Star Wars skin. But even with that, they didn't even get the WoW part right.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Snoodmaster]

Except for the fact that raids in normal mode can be completed with one fresh 50.

 

Not if everyone else is barely qualified and of average skill. They can be completely only if you have person in group basically pulling double duty to compensate for the person slacking. And that's not fair to the person who has to put in even more effort and do even more than required just because of one guy who shouldn't be there and should instead be running his dailies or doing flashpoints and other content to get ready.

[Ulmius]

Wrong. I ask again, would this game have sold 2m+ copies and had 1.7m renew if there was no chat?

 

No matter what you post, you will never get by the fact that chat is far more important to an MMO than combat logs. Period. End of Story.

 

Finally, I am not against combat logs. I simply do not want wide open public logs. I'd prefer a toggle for our guild runs but barring that, I am not unhappy with Bioware's plan.

 

A player can be discriminated or griefed when another player inspects their gear. Should they remove the ability to inspect people?

 

A player can be discriminated when someone sees the amount of hp a player has. DPS and Tanks alike. If a dps has low hp it means he has low gear so he can be shunned from groups. A tank can have low hp so he might not be able to take a hit from a boss, that guy can also be shunned from a group. Seeing as people can be discriminated based on their hp, should they remove the ability to see player hp? Should player hit points be a mystery and instead of an actual number displayed, should it just be a percentage?

Edited March 19, 2012 by Ulmius

[EternalFinality]

Combat logs outside the game is hilariously terrible design.

 

This is what I want. I want, when I use my Blade Rush ability (which deals FOUR different damage numbers since I'm dual wielding - a main hand hit, an offhand hit, a main hand ataru proc, and an offhand ataru proc) for a message to appear in the custom chat window I have set up in the top right corner of the screen that says:

 

<My character> hits <Enemy Character> with Blade Rush (or whatever ability I just used) dealing <amount> of damage. Amount being the total amount of damage all hits combined on this attack. Or you can have 4 entries that each detail how much damage each hit did, but this is less desirable.

 

Attacks that deal damage in ticks can have an entry for each tick.

 

I also want to see this:

 

<Enemy character> hit you with <Attack> dealing <amount> of damage

 

and this:

 

<Allied character> healed you with <Heal ability> for <amount>

 

and this:

 

<Enemy character> healed <Your target> with <Heal ability> for <amount>

 

and this:

 

<Enemy character> activates Force Camouflage.

 

and this:

 

Force Camouflage fades from <Enemy Character>

 

 

 

That's the minimum I want to see. Information about abilities being used on me or by enemy characters so I can see who's doing what, how much damage I just dealt, and who is healing who.

 

This is basic information any credible MMO should provide in game.

Edited March 19, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Drewser]

look dude. this is silly. I am not in any way trying to argue that chat is useless. The fact that you keep thinking im advocating that is very telling.

 

My point is if you're going to focus on the negative behavior combat data allows for, you can't ignore other tools that also facilitate that exact same behavior.

 

I stopped here...

 

The over-arching point is that it is the people who are responsible for their behaviors. Placing the blame on combat metrics is counter-productive to everybody.

 

The way they plan on implementing it sucks, imo. I want to switch out a mod, try my rotations, and know the effects of using said mod immediately. I am way too lazy to alt-tab out of my game to find a text file and load it into a parser.

 

With the current plan, i may check my dps output, like, once. Maybe once every few months. But what i would like is real time feedback, so i can know the difference changing out one itty bitty mod would make on my over all dps.

 

 

Edit; also, the decision by Bioware to implement limited combat metrics to compromise with people that simply wouldn't be bothered to use that information in the first place is very telling about the direction this game is going.

 

I really wanted to play a Star Wars MMO. Instead i got WoW with a Star Wars skin. But even with that, they didn't even get the WoW part right.

 

because it is where you keep getting it wrong. Just because some part of the game shares a negative possibility with another part of game, it does not make them equal.

 

The comparison is dumb for the reason I have stated. THEY SIMPLE ARE NOT EQUAL FEATURES.

[Drewser]

A player can be discriminated or griefed when another player inspects their gear. Should they remove the ability to inspect people?

 

A player can be discriminated when someone sees the amount of hp a player has. DPS and Tanks alike. If a dps has low hp it means he has low gear so he can be shunned from groups. A tank can have low hp so he might not be able to take a hit from a boss, that guy can also be shunned from a group. Seeing as people can be discriminated based on their hp, should they remove the ability to see player hp? Should player hit points be a mystery and instead of an actual number displayed, should it just be a percentage?

 

Not my argument, perhaps you will get an answer from someone that thinks they should be excluded simply due to possible discrimination.

 

I just jumped in when Stupid Drummer started going on about combat logs and chat.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Drewser

[dannomite]

If you have time between boss pulls to find out "What happened to me" in WoW, you have time to tab out and look at the last few entries of your combat log. If you want real time, it's also possible to create a real time parser and have it sit on a second monitor.

 

I'll also add that WoW's "What happened to me" can be a mess to sift through (granted they give you the ability to filter it further, but some boss abilities aren't clearly shown in the logs and it can show you taking damage after it logs you as dead)

 

While I have no doubt they'll be working on what you want, there are scores of more pressing things at this point. I think the hardcores just got a huge bone thrown to them with log files.

[DarthKhaos]

I want a combat log and a DPS meter.

 

Obviously these tools have a downside in that they can and will be misused by some individuals who like to stroke their own ego at someone else's expense. Hint: Don't play with those people!

 

We need a combat log so we can figure out why we died. What hit us? How much did it hit us for? Yes, we can sometimes figure this out through trial and error over multiple wipes, but that's time-consuming and expensive. I'm a healer, and from my perspective it's good to know whether someone died because I didn't heal them through unavoidable AoE or because they were standing in the fire or because they pulled aggro. If you don't want people to have these kinds of discussions, make standing in the fire instantly fatal, and make people's portraits blink red when they pull aggro.

You can get this information with private combat logs.

Edited March 19, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Stupiddrummer]

I stopped here...

 

 

 

because it is where you keep getting it wrong. Just because some part of the game shares a negative possibility with another part of game, it does not make them equal.

 

The comparison is dumb for the reason I have stated. THEY SIMPLE ARE NOT EQUAL FEATURES.

 

the utility of the tools may not be equal. The positive aspects may not be equal.

 

Now, bear with me....

 

...this is where it gets tricky...

 

THE NEGATIVE EFFECTS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME!

 

If the negative effect of one tool merits it's exclusion from the game, then what right does another tool, with the exact same negative effect, have to exist in the game?

Edited March 19, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Stupiddrummer]

Not my argument, perhaps you will get an answer from someone that thinks they should be excluded simply due to possible discrimination.

 

I just jumped in when Stupid Drummer started going on about combat logs and chat.

 

inspecting other characters is another in-game tool, that also shares the same, single, negative effect with combat meters and chat logs.

 

That negative effect being the facilitation of greifing and/or negative behavior.

[Maltuvion]

Combat logs outside the game is hilariously terrible design.

 

This is what I want. I want, when I use my Blade Rush ability (which deals FOUR different damage numbers since I'm dual wielding - a main hand hit, an offhand hit, a main hand ataru proc, and an offhand ataru proc) for a message to appear in the custom chat window I have set up in the top right corner of the screen that says:

 

<My character> hits <Enemy Character> with Blade Rush (or whatever ability I just used) dealing <amount> of damage. Amount being the total amount of damage all hits combined on this attack. Or you can have 4 entries that each detail how much damage each hit did, but this is less desirable.

 

Attacks that deal damage in ticks can have an entry for each tick.

 

I also want to see this:

 

<Enemy character> hit you with <Attack> dealing <amount> of damage

 

and this:

 

<Allied character> healed you with <Heal ability> for <amount>

 

and this:

 

<Enemy character> healed <Your target> with <Heal ability> for <amount>

 

and this:

 

<Enemy character> activates Force Camouflage.

 

and this:

 

Force Camouflage fades from <Enemy Character>

 

 

 

That's the minimum I want to see. Information about abilities being used on me or by enemy characters so I can see who's doing what, how much damage I just dealt, and who is healing who.

 

This is basic information any credible MMO should provide in game.

 

Quoted for truth.

[Snoodmaster]

Originally Posted by NotDonnaReed

I want a combat log and a DPS meter.

 

Obviously these tools have a downside in that they can and will be misused by some individuals who like to stroke their own ego at someone else's expense. Hint: Don't play with those people!

 

We need a combat log so we can figure out why we died. What hit us? How much did it hit us for? Yes, we can sometimes figure this out through trial and error over multiple wipes, but that's time-consuming and expensive. I'm a healer, and from my perspective it's good to know whether someone died because I didn't heal them through unavoidable AoE or because they were standing in the fire or because they pulled aggro. If you don't want people to have these kinds of discussions, make standing in the fire instantly fatal, and make people's portraits blink red when they pull aggro.

You can get this information with private combat logs.

 

No he can't.

 

In order for him to get that information, the person who died would have to upload the log along with everyone else in the raid and then the logs would have to be parsed and only after that can the healer check. As I stated earlier, getting the whole to upload the logs properly is a non-trivial problem that creates significant delays in the time between death and when the healer can view the log. Which results in this sort of uploading most likely not being done until after the whole raid is over. That defeats the point of what he wanted to do, i.e. quickly check to see who died so the next attempt goes better.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Snoodmaster

[Drewser]

the utility of the tools may not be equal. The positive aspects may not be equal.

 

Now, bear with me....

 

...this is where it gets tricky...

 

THE NEGATIVE EFFECTS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME!

 

If the negative effect of one tool merits it's exclusion from the game, then what right does another tool, with the exact same negative effect, have to exist in the game?

 

Because of its POSITIVE effects. As I said, there is no way to replace chat but there are various ways to do combat logs.

 

You might finally be getting it! You can't simply look at the negatives when evaluating something because in many cases the positives outweigh them. Take cars for example, they are a tool that cause lots of deaths but imagine our society if they were removed. Their positive effects far outweigh their negatives.

[Seregul]

Because of its POSITIVE effects. As I said, there is no way to replace chat but there are various ways to do combat logs.

 

You might finally be getting it! You can't simply look at the negatives when evaluating something because in many cases the positives outweigh them. Take cars for example, they are a tool that cause lots of deaths but imagine our society if they were removed. Their positive effects far outweigh their negatives.

 

Yet the way they are doing combat logs will not alleviate the negative impacts.

[NotDonnaReed]

Except for the fact that raids in normal mode can be completed with one fresh 50.

 

You could, theoretically, if the other 7 people overgeared the encounter and played their role perfectly.

 

Unfortunately, I don't know of any guilds on my server who are progressed enough to carry people.

[Stupiddrummer]

Because of its POSITIVE effects. As I said, there is no way to replace chat but there are various ways to do combat logs.

 

You might finally be getting it! You can't simply look at the negatives when evaluating something because in many cases the positives outweigh them. Take cars for example, they are a tool that cause lots of deaths but imagine our society if they were removed. Their positive effects far outweigh their negatives.

 

but you're only reason for not including combat metrics is because of the negative effects.

 

That's like banning cars because they can cause deaths.

[Drewser]

You could, theoretically, if the other 7 people overgeared the encounter and played their role perfectly.

 

Unfortunately, I don't know of any guilds on my server who are progressed enough to carry people.

 

Our guild managed to down the first 3 bosses in EV with two fresh 50s that only had one day of dailies and a BT HM run done before our 1st scheduled OPs run.

 

I wouldn't expect a PUG to try that but since it was our guild run we decided to give it shot not caring if we failed or not.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Drewser

[Drewser]

but you're only reason for not including combat metrics is because of the negative effects.

 

That's like banning cars because they can cause deaths.

 

I will type it for the 4th time, I am not against combat metrics.

 

If I could have it done my way, it would be a toggle.

 

Again, I only jumped back in this when I saw you comparing it to chat which is just goofy.