PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[RodneyMmKay]

This is a good point. Those who need meters clearly overestimate their skills and most of the people who are against them and want more challenge are selling themselves short.

 

I would say the converse is true. People who are against the open dissemination of information about their performence are usually the ones who prefer to live in their own little la-la land of personal "epicness"....

[MasterFeign]

I've seen some in this thread say, "There are some people out there that will use combat logs and damage meters as a way to discriminate, abuse, or mistreat others . Because it can happen, we shouldn't have it in the game."

 

Well so far in this game on my server I've seen some of that happening already. Except it wasn't from dps. I've seen people send shouts saying you need to have at least full tionese or purple mod equivalent in your gear to join their group. I've had people in my guild get booted from a group because they were inspected and the group saw they had a few green and blue mods. Since some people discriminate with the mod item level, should they remove mods from the game? Should they remove the ability to inspect people? I mean, some people discriminate when they see someone's gear, so surely going off the logic of some people in this thread, they MUST remove the ability to inspect others.

 

The other thing I've seen people get kicked from the group is because they had low hp. A dps literally got kicked out of his group without being inspected because the leader saw he had 12k hp. Having that low amount of hp means he was probably a fresh 50 with low gear. Since someone discriminated and griefed that player, should they remove the ability to see the amount of HP someone has? I mean someone griefed someone because of it, so we have to remove it. Can't let people have an avenue to grief people.

 

Those are actual events that transpired on my server. (Shadowhand)

 

Following the logic of not having meters because some people will grief other players, we MUST remove the ability to inspect other players and we MUST remove that ability to see how many HP a player has because some people will see the gear or hp of another player and discriminate or grief that player. It only makes sense doesn't it?

 

That's really too bad that that occurs... On my server (Helm of Graush), I haven't encountered anyone yet who has refused a group because of being a fresh 50 or what have you. I mean there have been the odd gear inspection genearl chat calls but those are for ops which is slightly more understandable. The funny irony is that it is entirely possible to do a lot of these ops and hard modes in still green gear because of play technique.

 

I haven't really played other MMOs so I'm not sure how severe segregation or the lack thereof is to having combat logs.

 

However, if people start asking for geared rakata-only folk for HM BT, then you know there's a bit of a problem. XD

[DarthKhaos]

I've seen people send shouts saying you need to have at least full tionese or purple mod equivalent in your gear to join their group. I've had people in my guild get booted from a group because they were inspected and the group saw they had a few green and blue mods. Since some people discriminate with the mod item level, should they remove mods from the game?

You need to change that from mods to gear and you'll have the argument of a lot of people not wanting the game to be gear centered. You've seen them "GW2 is not going to be gear centered why can't this game not be geared centered too." They may be right they may not. However if you've read the thread you'd see that people are not totally against combat logs. Just public ones. Private combat logs will give the players who wish to crunch numbers so they can improve themselves without at hand ready information to use as justification to kick someone.

 

If you want to compare the mods issue you're seeing with what we're asking for then you can say don't let players inspect other players. That's closer to what we're asking for. Me? I don't really inspect someone unless I see a piece of gear I think looks cool.

 

 

Some will, and some won't. I've run into both groups before. Sometimes people want to improve and are willing to take advice and do whatever is necessary. Sometimes people really like their spec/rotation, even though it is clearly subpar, and will fight tooth and nail to keep it. Sometimes people just don't like being told what to do, even if what they are being told is correct. And sometimes people lie so that they can go to an operation that they really aren't ready for. I can't always tell when someone is lying and I really do need to; because if they aren't performing, it would be irresponsible to punish everyone else just to help one person out.

Yes I have seen that also but that's just human nature. Just like this argument. Some want public some don't. You just like that guy refuses to change his stance. Does that make him wrong because you say so? Maybe it's just me but I faster leave a party than kick someone. If I'm not having fun with this group and the members do not wish to take some advice to help things along instead of checking meters to find that person who "sucks" I just leave and find another group or do something else.

 

This is a game after all where you play with other people.

Edited March 19, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Snoodmaster]

Yes I have seen that also but that's just human nature. Just like this argument. Some want public some don't. You just like that guy refuses to change his stance. Does that make him wrong because you say so? Maybe it's just me but I faster leave a party than kick someone. If I'm not having fun with this group and the members do not wish to take some advice to help things along instead of checking meters to find that person who "sucks" I just leave and find another group or do something else.

 

Why would it make sense for me to leave a party/operation that I created just because of one person if everyone else is ok? Isn't it much more sensible for THAT guy to leave so the rest of us can finish?

 

You seem to be coming from this from the point of view of a solo player joining someone else's PuG and then giving unsolicited advice. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about taking 30 minutes to an hour to put together a group and then having someone ruin it for everyone else by not playing up to scratch. Just because it's human nature for that guy to be less than competent does not mean the group has to put up with it.

 

The game requires people to be at a certain level of effectiveness. That bar may be set extremely low, but I've seen people fall below that bar. It's just not true that "everyone can complete it." A group of 50s that are naked can't complete anything. If they all have just the starter lvl 1 gear, they again can't complete anything. If they all have zero feats and have a 0/0/0 spec, they can't complete anything. If they do nothing but hit Rifle Shot their entire rotation, they can't complete anything. The question is, where along the line between being naked and wearing full rakata gear is the bar set? At what point between a 0/0/0 spec and a fully optimized spec is it acceptable? How much variation from the 'good' rotation can the group tolerate before it starts to drag everyone down?

 

Let's assume there are 3 players. All the players have the same set of gear, orange modded gear with purple daily mods. Player A is using an optimized spec and does 110% of the dps required to complete the instance and avoid enrages. Player B is using a spec that does half of Player's A dps and Player C is using a 0/0/0 spec. From the perspective of the rest of the group, Player B and Player C may as well be the same person. It doesn't matter if he is merely doing 55% of the dps needed, or if he is doing 0% of the dps needed, the group cannot complete the instance with him in the group as he is.

 

My concern with the personal only logs is that as a raid leader, you can't spot Players B or C until you see their combat log results. And requiring the whole raid to upload separate logs means that you will not be viewing the log until after the raid has ended. Is it fair to everyone else to finish the raid early without killing a boss, look at the logs 30 minutes later and then realize that Player B was the only person holding everybody back? Is it fair for 7 people to miss out on finishing the raid and not get a gear drop because one person wasn't up to par?

[Ulmius]

Why would it make sense for me to leave a party/operation that I created just because of one person if everyone else is ok? Isn't it much more sensible for THAT guy to leave so the rest of us can finish?

 

You seem to be coming from this from the point of view of a solo player joining someone else's PuG and then giving unsolicited advice. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about taking 30 minutes to an hour to put together a group and then having someone ruin it for everyone else by not playing up to scratch. Just because it's human nature for that guy to be less than competent does not mean the group has to put up with it.

 

The game requires people to be at a certain level of effectiveness. That bar may be set extremely low, but I've seen people fall below that bar. It's just not true that "everyone can complete it." A group of 50s that are naked can't complete anything. If they all have just the starter lvl 1 gear, they again can't complete anything. If they all have zero feats and have a 0/0/0 spec, they can't complete anything. If they do nothing but hit Rifle Shot their entire rotation, they can't complete anything. The question is, where along the line between being naked and wearing full rakata gear is the bar set? At what point between a 0/0/0 spec and a fully optimized spec is it acceptable? How much variation from the 'good' rotation can the group tolerate before it starts to drag everyone down?

 

Let's assume there are 3 players. All the players have the same set of gear, orange modded gear with purple daily mods. Player A is using an optimized spec and does 110% of the dps required to complete the instance and avoid enrages. Player B is using a spec that does half of Player's A dps and Player C is using a 0/0/0 spec. From the perspective of the rest of the group, Player B and Player C may as well be the same person. It doesn't matter if he is merely doing 55% of the dps needed, or if he is doing 0% of the dps needed, the group cannot complete the instance with him in the group as he is.

 

My concern with the personal only logs is that as a raid leader, you can't spot Players B or C until you see their combat log results. And requiring the whole raid to upload separate logs means that you will not be viewing the log until after the raid has ended. Is it fair to everyone else to finish the raid early without killing a boss, look at the logs 30 minutes later and then realize that Player B was the only person holding everybody back? Is it fair for 7 people to miss out on finishing the raid and not get a gear drop because one person wasn't up to par?

 

The argument about fairness to the others in the group has already been presented. Basically the argument against it is, "That guy got made fun of and booted, that's not fair to that one person and that's all that matters." It's sad, but true.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Ulmius

[Ulmius]

I've seen some in this thread say, "There are some people out there that will use combat logs and damage meters as a way to discriminate, abuse, or mistreat others . Because it can happen, we shouldn't have it in the game."

 

Well so far in this game on my server I've seen some of that happening already. Except it wasn't from dps. I've seen people send shouts saying you need to have at least full tionese or purple mod equivalent in your gear to join their group. I've had people in my guild get booted from a group because they were inspected and the group saw they had a few green and blue mods. Since some people discriminate with the mod item level, should they remove mods from the game? Should they remove the ability to inspect people? I mean, some people discriminate when they see someone's gear, so surely going off the logic of some people in this thread, they MUST remove the ability to inspect others.

 

The other thing I've seen people get kicked from the group is because they had low hp. A dps literally got kicked out of his group without being inspected because the leader saw he had 12k hp. Having that low amount of hp means he was probably a fresh 50 with low gear. Since someone discriminated and griefed that player, should they remove the ability to see the amount of HP someone has? I mean someone griefed someone because of it, so we have to remove it. Can't let people have an avenue to grief people.

 

Those are actual events that transpired on my server. (Shadowhand)

 

Following the logic of not having meters because some people will grief other players, we MUST remove the ability to inspect other players and we MUST remove that ability to see how many HP a player has because some people will see the gear or hp of another player and discriminate or grief that player. It only makes sense doesn't it?

 

Good point, hard to argue against it.

 

Unfortunately because that's the case, people will read it, decide they can't come up with a good argument, then ignore it in hopes that it will go away in the sea of responses in this thread in hopes that it will be forgotten. Then a page or two later they will be back to use the same tired argument.

 

The sad truth is, if they aren't hypocrites then they will agree with you 100% and start making posts to get rid of the inspect feature and the feature to see someone's hp. And actually, at least with meters you have a chance to show the group what you can do as opposed to being outright denied. But, they won't do that because it's probably a feature they use and don't want to see it go away. I suppose hypocrites will be hypocrites.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Ulmius

[Seregul]

However if you've read the thread you'd see that people are not totally against combat logs. Just public ones. Private combat logs will give the players who wish to crunch numbers so they can improve themselves without at hand ready information to use as justification to kick someone.

 

They're not private.

[DarthKhaos]

The game requires people to be at a certain level of effectiveness. That bar may be set extremely low, but I've seen people fall below that bar. It's just not true that "everyone can complete it." A group of 50s that are naked can't complete anything. If they all have just the starter lvl 1 gear, they again can't complete anything. If they all have zero feats and have a 0/0/0 spec, they can't complete anything. If they do nothing but hit Rifle Shot their entire rotation, they can't complete anything. The question is, where along the line between being naked and wearing full rakata gear is the bar set? At what point between a 0/0/0 spec and a fully optimized spec is it acceptable? How much variation from the 'good' rotation can the group tolerate before it starts to drag everyone down?

This would make an interesting experiement for all those number crunchers. Take a set of level 10, 20, 30, 40 & basic 50 gear and start working your way up. Take a group that have the hardmode or operation on farm and perform the encounter with a set of level 10 gear and see how they do then if they fail "upgrade" to the level 20 gear and so forth and so forth.

[iceperson]

the devs did respond. they said they aren't giving you a combat log that will track other players so that you can judge them.

[Seregul]

the devs did respond. they said they aren't giving you a combat log that will track other players so that you can judge them.

 

Unless you're a healer.

[thominoh]

Here are examples of the ONLY combat logs you need:

 

1) Threat Meter:

 

YOU were hit with 560 points of damage..

 

2) Ignoring the threat meter:

 

YOU died..

LOADING, please wait...

 

3) DPS Meter:

 

Is the mob dead yet???

 

4) Heal Meter:

 

Is your group alive or dead....... It's not that hard..

 

 

WHY do you need some numbers on a screen to tell you if you are doing your role.... When you get threat from a bee.. Do you need a meter to tell you , or can you feel it? Common sense people and observe

[iceperson]

Unless you're a healer.

 

try judging a healer solely based on heals incoming to you and see how far that gets you.

[Seregul]

try judging a healer solely based on heals incoming to you and see how far that gets you.

 

wooooooosh!

[Stupiddrummer]

Good point, hard to argue against it.

 

Unfortunately because that's the case, people will read it, decide they can't come up with a good argument, then ignore it in hopes that it will go away in the sea of responses in this thread in hopes that it will be forgotten. Then a page or two later they will be back to use the same tired argument.

 

The sad truth is, if they aren't hypocrites then they will agree with you 100% and start making posts to get rid of the inspect feature and the feature to see someone's hp. And actually, at least with meters you have a chance to show the group what you can do as opposed to being outright denied. But, they won't do that because it's probably a feature they use and don't want to see it go away. I suppose hypocrites will be hypocrites.

 

aye.

 

I haven't read a solid argument against combat data that doesn't in some way blame the meters for unavoidable human behavior. Meters are just a scapegoat.

 

It's so sad because all meters ever wanted to do is help people

[Andryah]

I haven't read a solid argument against combat data that doesn't in some way blame the meters for unavoidable human behavior. Meters are just a scapegoat.

 

Then your reading comprehension has been severely nerfed somewhere along the way, or you are simply using avoidance tactics to promote your biased views

 

Most feedback in this thread that have concerns about public meters have been very clear that it's not the tool, it's the misuse of the tool that is the actual issue. Since it is virtually impossble to interdict the misbehaviors of people misusing public combat logs, it is logical to limit their availability AND give the players control over their combat data. It empowers the individual players to manage the data and hence limit it's misuse by other people. It's a mature approach to a real social problem in game. Players can share the data with people they know, respect, and trust. This is basic social science by the way, that peopple who want to access other peoples information simply refuse to acknowledge.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Andryah

[Matte_Black]

aye.

 

I haven't read a solid argument against combat data that doesn't in some way blame the meters for unavoidable human behavior. Meters are just a scapegoat.

 

It's so sad because all meters ever wanted to do is help people

 

One of the most prevalent arguments against is that addition or more public logs would facilitate and increase the bad behavior not that they are the sole cause of it. Proving that such behaviors already exist does little to prove they won't increase. No one is blaming them for existing elitist bad behaviors, just that such logs would encourage, enable and inflame that behavior.

[Stupiddrummer]

Then your reading comprehension has been severely nerfed somewhere along the way, or you are simply using avoidance tactics to promote your biased views

 

Most feedback in this thread that have concerns about public meters have been very clear that it's not the tool, it's the misuse of the tool that is the actual issue. Since it is virtually impossble to interdict the misbehaviors of people misusing public combat logs, it is logical to limit their availability AND give the players control over their combat data. It empowers the individual players to manage the data and hence limit it's misuse by other people. It's a mature approach to a real social problem in game. Players can share the data with people they know, respect, and trust. This is basic social science by the way, that peopple who want to access other peoples information simply refuse to acknowledge.

 

If you're going to limit tools to griefers why stop with DPS meters? Lets get rid of the chat window, that way greifers will never even be able to speak to you!

 

People that will mis-use combat meters are going to grief you no matter what. All you're doing by taking away combat logs is ruining it for people that will use them for their intended purposes. That hardly seems like the mature way to handle it.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Matte_Black]

Then your reading comprehension has been severely nerfed somewhere along the way, or you are simply using avoidance tactics to promote your biased views

 

Most feedback in this thread that have concerns about public meters have been very clear that it's not the tool, it's the misuse of the tool that is the actual issue. Since it is virtually impossble to interdict the misbehaviors of people misusing public combat logs, it is logical to limit their availability AND give the players control over their combat data. It empowers the individual players to manage the data and hence limit it's misuse by other people. It's a mature approach to a real social problem in game. Players can share the data with people they know, respect, and trust. This is basic social science by the way, that peopple who want to access other peoples information simply refuse to acknowledge.

 

I agree.

 

In all honesty, would the pro-public log supporters prefer it if BioWare placed meaningful consequences on those engaging in the sort of judgement that BioWare says they wish to avoid exposing their players to. I'd imagine that being much more intrusive to how they play than missing the data of a few group members.

[Stupiddrummer]

I agree.

 

In all honesty, would the pro-public log supporters prefer it if BioWare placed meaningful consequences on those engaging in the sort of judgement that BioWare says they wish to avoid exposing their players to. I'd imagine that being much more intrusive to how they play than missing the data of a few group members.

 

meaningful consequences? How about you just don't group with those people?

 

If you're notoriously rude to people on your server, word will get around. That's what makes griefing in MMO's unique to griefing in call of duty; there are consequences.

[Ganelon]

I agree.

 

In all honesty, would the pro-public log supporters prefer it if BioWare placed meaningful consequences on those engaging in the sort of judgement that BioWare says they wish to avoid exposing their players to. I'd imagine that being much more intrusive to how they play than missing the data of a few group members.

 

Of course I would. Because I believe that limiting the functionality of a tool is not the right solution in order to prevent potential misuse of said tool.

[Seregul]

I agree.

 

In all honesty, would the pro-public log supporters prefer it if BioWare placed meaningful consequences on those engaging in the sort of judgement that BioWare says they wish to avoid exposing their players to. I'd imagine that being much more intrusive to how they play than missing the data of a few group members.

 

Yes, seeing as how these personal logs won't avoid metric-based judgment.

[Drewser]

If you're going to limit tools to griefers why stop with DPS meters? Lets get rid of the chat window, that way greifers will never even be able to speak to you!

 

People that will mis-use combat meters are going to grief you no matter what. All you're doing by taking away combat logs is ruining it for people that will use them for their intended purposes. That hardly seems like the mature way to handle it.

 

Someone tried and failed with that argument like 900 responses ago.

[HolePuncher]

Why would it make sense for me to leave a party/operation that I created just because of one person if everyone else is ok? Isn't it much more sensible for THAT guy to leave so the rest of us can finish?

 

You seem to be coming from this from the point of view of a solo player joining someone else's PuG and then giving unsolicited advice. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about taking 30 minutes to an hour to put together a group and then having someone ruin it for everyone else by not playing up to scratch. Just because it's human nature for that guy to be less than competent does not mean the group has to put up with it.

 

The game requires people to be at a certain level of effectiveness. That bar may be set extremely low, but I've seen people fall below that bar. It's just not true that "everyone can complete it." A group of 50s that are naked can't complete anything. If they all have just the starter lvl 1 gear, they again can't complete anything. If they all have zero feats and have a 0/0/0 spec, they can't complete anything. If they do nothing but hit Rifle Shot their entire rotation, they can't complete anything. The question is, where along the line between being naked and wearing full rakata gear is the bar set? At what point between a 0/0/0 spec and a fully optimized spec is it acceptable? How much variation from the 'good' rotation can the group tolerate before it starts to drag everyone down?

 

Let's assume there are 3 players. All the players have the same set of gear, orange modded gear with purple daily mods. Player A is using an optimized spec and does 110% of the dps required to complete the instance and avoid enrages. Player B is using a spec that does half of Player's A dps and Player C is using a 0/0/0 spec. From the perspective of the rest of the group, Player B and Player C may as well be the same person. It doesn't matter if he is merely doing 55% of the dps needed, or if he is doing 0% of the dps needed, the group cannot complete the instance with him in the group as he is.

 

My concern with the personal only logs is that as a raid leader, you can't spot Players B or C until you see their combat log results. And requiring the whole raid to upload separate logs means that you will not be viewing the log until after the raid has ended. Is it fair to everyone else to finish the raid early without killing a boss, look at the logs 30 minutes later and then realize that Player B was the only person holding everybody back? Is it fair for 7 people to miss out on finishing the raid and not get a gear drop because one person wasn't up to par?

 

As a raid leader, I agree with all of this.

[Snoodmaster]

One of the most prevalent arguments against is that addition or more public logs would facilitate and increase the bad behavior not that they are the sole cause of it. Proving that such behaviors already exist does little to prove they won't increase. No one is blaming them for existing elitist bad behaviors, just that such logs would encourage, enable and inflame that behavior.

 

The problem with that argument is that it ignores the reasons WHY the behavior exists in the first place.

 

Actually, I haven't really seen anyone make a post about the reasons for the underlying behavior other than "combat logs make people behave like jerks," so here goes:

 

The reason why people are exclusive and boot people isn't just to be mean. Sure, there's some aspect of that, but most people aren't naturally jerks and it is actually counter-productive to be a jerk in a team-based environment. If someone leaves or gets booted from the group, it takes time to replace them. Most people, even the jerks, would rather not add more time to the run just for no reason.

 

The reason why people do it is because the PvE portion of the game is a team based endeavor with rewards based on team success and not on individual success. If the team doesn't get the boss down, nobody gets anything. And, if a single person screws up enough, that can have drastic consequences on the success or failure of the team. It doesn't matter if most of the team is amazingly awesome, if a single person isn't competent, nobody gets anything. That creates an incentive for people to make sure that every person they group with is capable and won't hold them back.

 

Which is where the "LF1M dps 12k hp required" or "link 3 pieces of tionese gear" or "must have done the instance before" comes in. People are taking steps, reasonable or unreasonable, to make sure that everyone else in that group is capable. Because if they do not, and they get unlucky, that means a waste of time, a waste of credits, and no reward. After the first few times you run an instance and notice that sometimes the run is smooth, and sometimes the first boss wipes the group, most people will do what they can to get the first result and avoid the second. Then they'll notice that the good result happens more often when every player is in X gear, or doing Y dps. And the bad result happens more often when they are not. Finally, they start restricting their groups to people in X gear or who do Y dps. At least with a log, they can base those restrictions on hard data and statistics. Without it, they'll be forced to guess or use more subjective data.

 

 

 

Before anyone thinks that I'm advocating being a jerk, I'm not. I don't think people should be insulting or call people scrubs based on a combat log. What I think is that people who form groups should be able to decide for themselves if they want to remain grouped with the other people in the group. And for that to be an informed decision, they need to be able to see that other person's log more quickly than a personal log only system would provide.

 

A checkbox in preferences would allow people to decide not to share their information, while allowing groups to see who isn't sharing their information and decide if they want to take the risk of running with that person or not. The current system only allows people to decide not to share and prevents the group from making a decision about taking that person until it is too late.

[Stupiddrummer]

Someone tried and failed with that argument like 900 responses ago.

 

so while i'm checking through 2k posts, tell me how that argument is fail.

 

edit; there's a good chance i initiated that "remove chat window" argument in the first place, lol

Edited March 19, 2012 by Stupiddrummer