Esproc Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 A PuG isn't a kindergarten where people learn to play the game at the expense of others. It isn't a place for bad or new players to hang around or for people who can't get into a guild to loaf and get carried. At least not the ones I run with. It's a group formed for the specific and clear purpose of entering an operation and coordinating together to defeat the bosses in that operation. There may be other goals, like doing it in a specific timeframe, or avoiding wipes. I don't see what is shameful about adhering to those goals and doing what is reasonably possible to see those goals accomplished. One person not putting forth the required effort endangers the whole group. It would be irresponsible as a raid leader to ignore that fact. That is why you need a HC Guild. Join one and be with those like minded players. Then you will not need to PuG "with people who can't get in a guild to loaf and get carried." Also, you do know that they have guilds that are full of "loafers". And that they have these things called Guilds that are called Casual, Moderate, and even some that are HARD CORE. You should check it out some time. They even have a guild quiz for people to be able to locate a guild that suits what they input. You can even find that guild quiz right on these very forums. But I get plenty enough offers thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthKhaos Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) I DO want to form PuGs with likeminded players. I expect to do so and for people who don't care to form Pugs with people like them as well. Just as a group of lackadaisical players is justified in removing someone for being mean or skipping bosses that the rest of the groups wants to see, so am I in removing someone for not fitting in with what the rest of my group wants. A PuG isn't a kindergarten where people learn to play the game at the expense of others. It isn't a place for bad or new players to hang around or for people who can't get into a guild to loaf and get carried. At least not the ones I run with. It's a group formed for the specific and clear purpose of entering an operation and coordinating together to defeat the bosses in that operation. There may be other goals, like doing it in a specific timeframe, or avoiding wipes. I don't see what is shameful about adhering to those goals and doing what is reasonably possible to see those goals accomplished. One person not putting forth the required effort endangers the whole group. It would be irresponsible as a raid leader to ignore that fact. Sometimes I have the time and inclination to help other players out. Sometimes I don't. I always deserve the right to make that choice. You sure you're talking about the same thing? I've heard players say this many times and it's something you need to get a refresher course in. "That's what you get when you join/make a PuG." Bottom line if you want like minded players in the context you're talking bout PuGs is NOT the place to be looking. You'll find some but the majority wouldn't. Don't bother trying to change the way PuGs work because it's designed for ANY and EVERYBODY to go. Sometimes you get lucky and get an awesome group, sometimes you're not and get a bunch of craptastic people. Other times you break even and have to deal with someone who's not bleeding edge. It's the nature of the beast. You using the tools to lord yourself over these players is wrong. You do that crap in your personal groups made from your guild and friends of like minded players. You talk about your choice like you're playing by yourself. The majority of those against combat logs are willing to compromise with personal logs so that players who like their numbers can do their theory crafting and what not. It is the other group that wants the "Their way or the high way!" what about their choice? Does that not matter because they have a different view? Edited March 17, 2012 by DarthKhaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoodmaster Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 That is why you need a HC Guild. Join one and be with those like minded players. Then you will not need to PuG "with people who can't get in a guild to loaf and get carried." I am in a HC Guild. We just downed NiM Soa tuesday, and we've been 9/10 NiM for 3 or 4 weeks now. Why do I PuG then? I have alts. And sometimes guildmembers who aren't as active need gear. Don't bother trying to change the way PuGs work because it's designed for ANY and EVERYBODY to go. Sometimes you get lucky and get an awesome group, sometimes you're not and get a bunch of craptastic people. Other times you break even and have to deal with someone who's not bleeding edge. It's the nature of the beast. No. Simply no. There is no requirement that a PuG have to be a roll of the dice that results in a "bunch of craptastic people" or that the people who don't suck in the PuG have to put up with it. There is a remove from group option for a reason. It's not just "random luck" that gets you an awesome group. More often it's hard work and effort by the person putting together the PuG. Because there is always someone as raid leader sending out invites, filtering through replies and organizing the raid. It's that person's ability to tell if someone is not performing, and thus holding the whole group back, or if a change in strategy will allow the raid to succeed. If "anybody can go" worked, then an operation would be no harder than a Heroic 4 quest and you'd get loot even if you couldn't kill a single boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediKlick Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Here's what I see with combat logs coming from EQ2 myself. There are those that will be ******es, and guess what, they are like that whether combat logs are in or out. Combat logs help everyone get better, otherwise it's just a guessing game. Anyone against combat logs is afraid of people looking at their numbers. People against combat logs are casual players who think that dps numbers dont matter. Guess what? If numbers didn't matter there wouldn't be enrage timers. Numbers matter and they always will, if you suck well then, get better. Not being perfect is ok, work on improving. But trying to scream against combat logs just because you don't want to get better is selfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 From 1.2 PTS Notes: Combat Log Players may now choose to view victory and defeat messages in the chat window. This feature can be enabled in the new "Combat Logging" section of the preferences menu. This must be enabled for combat messages to appear in the chat window. The "Combat Logging" section in the preferences menu also allows players to stream all combat interactions originating from or directed at their character to a machine-parsable file. When this option is enabled, time stamped log files are written periodically to the Star Wars – The Old Republic\Combat Logs directory in the My Documents folder. Warning: This is an advanced feature. Constant combat logging may use a significant amount of disk space, and players may need to periodically delete old logs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esproc Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) I've tried to tell them they got the log a ways back, but they still want more. I thought that giving personal logs was a consensus. Edited March 17, 2012 by Esproc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 From 1.2 PTS Notes: Combat Log Players may now choose to view victory and defeat messages in the chat window. This feature can be enabled in the new "Combat Logging" section of the preferences menu. This must be enabled for combat messages to appear in the chat window. The "Combat Logging" section in the preferences menu also allows players to stream all combat interactions originating from or directed at their character to a machine-parsable file. When this option is enabled, time stamped log files are written periodically to the Star Wars – The Old Republic\Combat Logs directory in the My Documents folder. Warning: This is an advanced feature. Constant combat logging may use a significant amount of disk space, and players may need to periodically delete old logs. AWESOME!!! Thanks for the update! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoodmaster Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Whatever, but you do contradict yourself in terms of your posts. And you really do have a bad attitude problem. Perhaps you should try taking some deep breaths and relaxing, don't stress. I'm sorry, but what contradictions are you referring to? Also, what attitude problem? The person I responded to said that PuGs are places for bad or new players to learn and get better, or just play poorly the way they enjoy playing. I don't think so. I'm sorry if I was unclear about it, but my belief is, and always has been, that there are 8 or 16 people in the PuG and if one person's shortcomings are getting in the way, the group shouldn't have to accommodate that person if it does not want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterKayote Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 From 1.2 PTS Notes: Combat Log Players may now choose to view victory and defeat messages in the chat window. This feature can be enabled in the new "Combat Logging" section of the preferences menu. This must be enabled for combat messages to appear in the chat window. The "Combat Logging" section in the preferences menu also allows players to stream all combat interactions originating from or directed at their character to a machine-parsable file. When this option is enabled, time stamped log files are written periodically to the Star Wars – The Old Republic\Combat Logs directory in the My Documents folder. Warning: This is an advanced feature. Constant combat logging may use a significant amount of disk space, and players may need to periodically delete old logs. So the final verdict is theyre personal, then? Seems so ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiddyy Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Le sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tronzax Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 You sure you're talking about the same thing? I've heard players say this many times and it's something you need to get a refresher course in. "That's what you get when you join/make a PuG." Bottom line if you want like minded players in the context you're talking bout PuGs is NOT the place to be looking. You'll find some but the majority wouldn't. Don't bother trying to change the way PuGs work because it's designed for ANY and EVERYBODY to go. Sometimes you get lucky and get an awesome group, sometimes you're not and get a bunch of craptastic people. Other times you break even and have to deal with someone who's not bleeding edge. It's the nature of the beast. You using the tools to lord yourself over these players is wrong. You do that crap in your personal groups made from your guild and friends of like minded players. You talk about your choice like you're playing by yourself. The majority of those against combat logs are willing to compromise with personal logs so that players who like their numbers can do their theory crafting and what not. It is the other group that wants the "Their way or the high way!" what about their choice? Does that not matter because they have a different view? Any time you have something that creates the ability to be anonymous, it in turn makes people act in different ways than they normally would. The problem is, people know this. They expect this. But when someone does act like that, they complain about it and try to turn the game into a nanny state by removing tools that people use to evaluate others and evaluate their group because some people use it to prove they are better and act like a jerk. Instead of removing the tool, why not just use a tool that's already available to you and designed to deal with those people and put that person on your ignore list? I guess that would just make too much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthKhaos Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 No. Simply no. There is no requirement that a PuG have to be a roll of the dice that results in a "bunch of craptastic people" or that the people who don't suck in the PuG have to put up with it. There is a remove from group option for a reason. It's not just "random luck" that gets you an awesome group. More often it's hard work and effort by the person putting together the PuG. Because there is always someone as raid leader sending out invites, filtering through replies and organizing the raid. It's that person's ability to tell if someone is not performing, and thus holding the whole group back, or if a change in strategy will allow the raid to succeed. If "anybody can go" worked, then an operation would be no harder than a Heroic 4 quest and you'd get loot even if you couldn't kill a single boss. PuG means Pick up Group. It's where you grab pretty much any available player to fill a role. If you're being extremely selective then you didn't form a PuG. It's not a requirement but the nature of PuGs because you're grabbing random players that they skill level of the selected players will be random. You like analyzing numbers you should of realized that. It's just the nature of the beast. What do you think will happen if they implement a fully automated LFG system? You really think you'll be getting the cream of the crop? Don't kid yourself. It's the same with PvP. You got no idea what you'll b getting for your group and all you can do is hope you don't got a bunch of idiots. Its interesting though. You hear less complaints from PvPers (who by nature are WAY more competitive) asking for numbers to "evaluate" members of their group so they can kick the badies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 good graphic for the log format: http://toroz.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/combat-log-key.jpg I think BW was smart in 1) not making these real time and 2) making it personal only. It'll be much harder to get ACT working for external trigger events, which is a good thing imho. Because otherwise the encounters will be designed with ACT in mind. The part that I REALLY love is the threat generated part. Now I can actually figure out if I'm way ahead (and thus could use more defensive mods), or if I need to swap out for dps intense fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) From the PTS Patch 1.2 notes. Combat Log Players may now choose to view victory and defeat messages in the chat window. This feature can be enabled in the new "Combat Logging" section of the preferences menu. This must be enabled for combat messages to appear in the chat window. The "Combat Logging" section in the preferences menu also allows players to stream all combat interactions originating from or directed at their character to a machine-parsable file. When this option is enabled, time stamped log files are written periodically to the Star Wars – The Old Republic\Combat Logs directory in the My Documents folder. Warning: This is an advanced feature. Constant combat logging may use a significant amount of disk space, and players may need to periodically delete old logs. Reads to me like it will private data that can be shared if you want. Edited March 17, 2012 by Matte_Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krollx Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Must have for raiders >>>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catch_TwentyTwo Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Must have for raiders >>>> Shame you are in the minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Everything you do and happens to you, you will be able to save in a log. People will create a 3rd party parser that will allow you send those logs or data to others. The parser will combine all the data and sort out all the the data, including ranking the DPS or Heals. Raiding guilds will require you to use the parser and share the data. you can say no, but they can replace you. Edited March 17, 2012 by Kourage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Everything you do and happens to you, you will be able to save in a log. People will create a 3rd party parser that will allow you send those logs or data to others. The parser will combine all the data and sort out all the the data, including ranking the DPS or Heals. Raising guilds will require you to use the parser and share the data. you can say no, but they can replace you. And that's fine. Most of us here have no problem with (so-called) "hardcore uber-leets" restricting membership or raid spots based on parses. We just didn't want to have to see it everywhere - in PUGs, in Normal FPs, in Heroics while leveling, at the drop of a hat. -Individuals will be able to parse and analyze their own performance. -Guilds (with a bit of extra effort) will be able to track detailed parses of their runs. But you won't be able to look at other people's data without their assistance. It's a nice compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhouse Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 The part that I REALLY love is the threat generated part. Now I can actually figure out if I'm way ahead (and thus could use more defensive mods), or if I need to swap out for dps intense fights. How can you find out how far ahead you are? The logs are supposedly only going to display things that you do and things that happen to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagadeath Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 How can you find out how far ahead you are? The logs are supposedly only going to display things that you do and things that happen to you. + the fact you will have to tab out of the game to even see the logs. not the best idea for the tank to be tabbing out during a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhouse Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) + the fact you will have to tab out of the game to even see the logs. not the best idea for the tank to be tabbing out during a fight. Not to mention having to download a 3rd party parser that is not made by bioware which can easily contain viruses, keyloggers, spyware etc. Inc hacked accounts, be prepared customer service. Edited March 17, 2012 by bhouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 + the fact you will have to tab out of the game to even see the logs. not the best idea for the tank to be tabbing out during a fight. It won't be long before we have baseline metrics for the most-effective Threatgen rotations for Tanks and Threat Buildup Rates for DPS. Threat will still have to be managed "by feel" in-game but we'll have a much better sense of what is and isn't effective. Besides, with Target-of-Target it's going to be a LOT easier to identify when Threat is pulled/lost even in melee scrums. I know you are used to your "Magic I-WIN Meters" but they really aren't needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhouse Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I know you are used to your "Magic I-WIN Meters"... LOL Someone who knows nothing about threat meters or combat log parsers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) In the end, we can fully analyze our play and performance to develop better rotations, builds and strategies but, we will still need to play the game without the aid of the extra level of live feedback. Out-of-game metrics discussions will, by default, remain a post Op/FP exercise unless the group decides to make arrangements for uploading and parsing while underway. I agree with how BioWare went about making this the situation. Edited March 17, 2012 by Matte_Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 LOL Someone who knows nothing about threat meters or combat log parsers. LOL - I probably know more about them and their effective uses than you do. A Threat Meter is used to "surf" the aggro-tables trying to ride as close as possible to the Tank's Threatgen without going over. It's a DPS Maximization Tool and a Threat Monitoring Tool to ensure DPS doesn't pull and the Tank is generating acceptable levels of Threat... in other words it dumbs down the game by turning Threat into nothing more than a DPS Generation Cap. It makes it so trivially easy to never lose Threat (outside of Aggro Drop Encounter Mechanics) that it's almost pointless to have it in the game. It's a lot more challenging and interesting as a mechanic when it can be more easily lost and regained, when there is uncertainty about its value, just like Poker is "more interesting" when your opponents don't know the cards in your hand and bluffing is possible. Imagine how quickly Poker would become trivial and boring if all cards were dealt Face Up. Now think about what a Threat Meter does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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