Shouldn't tanks hit for nothing?

[yukirshiro]

Tanks hit for good damage because tanks don't tank in pvp.

[yukirshiro]

In SWTOR...

If you wanted to deal a lot of damage, you should spec tank.

If you wanted to live a long time and take damage, you should spec heals.

If you wanted to be a lolderpsheep, you should spec damage.

 

And if you want to live a long time, take damage, and deal a lot of damage, play a marauder.

 

Go figure.

[nuborn]

If you're a tank spec you're not dpsing anyone down. If you're a DPS spec on a tanking AC, then you're really not tanking much more than any other dps..

 

And that is where you're wrong. Juggernauth in defstance with offspec and offgear will mirror your dmg while having double or triple a light/medium armor wearers mitigation.

 

Because all that matters is armor (hi heavy armor + defstance) and healthpool

[Ryotknife]

And that is where you're wrong. Juggernauth in defstance with offspec and offgear will mirror your dmg while having double or triple a light/medium armor wearers mitigation.

 

Because all that matters is armor (hi heavy armor + defstance) and healthpool

 

too bad armor is useles against just about every class other than a sniper.

[nuborn]

too bad armor is useles against just about every class other than a sniper.

 

So what you're trying to say is that you dont have a clue about gamemechanics and want me to lecture you? go read up what armor does. even tooltip should help

[BDutch]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=350113

[Xenon-se]

Because all that matters is armor (hi heavy armor + defstance) and healthpool

Snipers, Marauders+Juggernauts (not rage) and Assassins do disagree (defense and shield mess them up, big time).

Powertechs and Operatives disagree as well, but for other reasons (internal and elemental damage and/or armor debuff ignore most of your armor).

 

All that matters is armor "only" count vs sorcs and tracer missiles. They might be fotm right now, but that will change once people realize...

Edited March 12, 2012 by Xenon-se

[Xenon-se]

too bad armor is useles against just about every class other than a sniper.

Armor is very useful against classes that have melee, ranged, tech or force attacks that deal energy and kinetic damage or does not have a powerful armor debuff (ie most classes except operatives and powertechs). Armor is useless against melee, ranged, tech and force attacks that deal elemental or internal damage.

 

Shields and defense is very useful against classes that have melee and ranged attacks but useless against tech or force attacks.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Xenon-se

[yukirshiro]

And that is where you're wrong. Juggernauth in defstance with offspec and offgear will mirror your dmg while having double or triple a light/medium armor wearers mitigation.

 

Because all that matters is armor (hi heavy armor + defstance) and healthpool

 

Uh this is somewhat true for bounty hunters. It is not true AT ALL for juggs.

 

If you go def stance with a rage spec with a jugg you lose 30% of your DPS because you can't generate rage nearly fast enough.

[Ryotknife]

So what you're trying to say is that you dont have a clue about gamemechanics and want me to lecture you? go read up what armor does. even tooltip should help

 

so what you are saying is that you are absolutely clueless about everything in stwor? fair enough.

[Ryotknife]

Armor is very useful against classes that have melee, ranged, tech or force attacks that deal energy and kinetic damage or does not have a powerful armor debuff (ie most classes except operatives and powertechs). Armor is useless against melee, ranged, tech and force attacks that deal elemental or internal damage.

 

Shields and defense is very useful against classes that have melee and ranged attacks but useless against tech or force attacks.

 

most pvp damage goes right through armor. switching from dps stance to tank stance does not yield a significant change in my survivability.

[Xenon-se]

most pvp damage goes right through armor.

No, most pvp damage is mitigated by armor. only attacks that is not mitigated by armor are attcks that deal elemental damage or internal damage (this is not most pvp damage).

 

switching from dps stance to tank stance does not yield a significant change in my survivability.

It should increase your life expectency quit a lot. But if it is only a few seconds because lack of equipment [or good use of your defensive cooldowns] you might not notice it.

[Ryotknife]

No, most pvp damage is mitigated by armor. only attacks that is not mitigated by armor are attcks that deal elemental damage or internal damage (this is not most pvp damage).

 

It should increase your life expectency quit a lot. But if it is only a few seconds because lack of equipment [or good use of your defensive cooldowns] you might not notice it.

 

most of my damage is elemental and internal (or just bypasses armor in the case of railshot). do people have attacks that are affected by armor? yes, but it is a minority of their damage for the most part. i too have attacks that are affected by armor, but their CDs prevent them from being a significant portion of my damage (mostly use them because of their procs)

 

and no, it doesnt increase my survivability at all. Jet charge (basic charge) increases my survivability a hell of a lot more than my increased armor and shields do. the only difference between my dps pt and my hybrid tank/dps pt in terms of survivability is that my tank pt has an escape tool to survive being focused.

 

i switched because tank/dps pts are much more useful in huttball than dps pts (downside is they are less useful in void and ald).

Edited March 12, 2012 by Ryotknife

[darkrom]

Not to get all into the trinity again, But if you're able to mitigate a ton of dmg, shouldn't you be gimped in other areas?

 

Am I missing something? Isn't it common knowledge that Tanks shouldn't be hitting people for >1000+?

 

I thought that tanks would only be doing weapon dmg, why am I seeing Tanks sans healers taking on and killing 2-3 peeps at a time? Doing +25k dmg in 10-15 secs, Criting in the +3000 range, and mitigating ~20k in dmg?

 

I know this isn't a 1v1 balanced game....but shouldn't 2v1 balance something? I can't help but believe something is completely broken in this game.

 

You should look up the benefit of tank stats in PVP.

[DarthNethus]

Guards/Juggs are the only AC in game constantly getting the 5k+ damage medal. You can speak about setup time all you want, the fact is it's still happening. What's even funnier is watching it happen on AoE.

 

An AOE the size of your hit box...

 

And wth do you mean "constantly getting the 5k+ damage medal."?

Because, in full champ with rakatta adrenal and power relic, the ONLY time I can even come close to that is if I get the WZ buff and I'm hitting someone with little to no expertise.

 

But please... Continue to spout nonsense. It makes you look cool.

[Xenon-se]

most of my damage is elemental and internal

As i wrote, armor mitigate all melee, ranged, tech and force attacks that deal energy or kinetic damage. Armor does not mitigate elemental or internal damage (and is not as useful against classes with very strong armor debuffs).

 

The two advanced classes that have access to a lot of elemental damage, internal damage or strong armor debuffs are powertechs and operatives.

 

If you are a powertech then most of your damage ignore armor.

 

Most players, however, are not powertechs or operatives.

 

Most pvp damage, however, is not elemental or internal.

[Ryotknife]

As i wrote, armor mitigate all melee, ranged, tech and force attacks that deal energy or kinetic damage. Armor does not mitigate elemental or internal damage (and is not as useful against classes with very strong armor debuffs).

 

The two advanced classes that have access to a lot of elemental damage, internal damage or strong armor debuffs are powertechs and operatives.

 

If you are a powertech then most of your damage ignore armor.

 

Most players, however, are not powertechs or operatives.

 

Most pvp damage, however, is not elemental or internal.

 

most pvp damage is either elemental, internal, or has talents that makes them ignore armor. that doesnt mean that most ABILITIES follow this, just that the majority of a players rotation in pvp does.

 

this is why tanks do not have that much more survivability than their dps counterparts (less survivability if they use guard without a healer around). you bring a tank for their UTILITY, not their ability to tank (which they cant)

 

if you dont want to die, play a healer.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Zekoisop]

Not to get all into the trinity again, But if you're able to mitigate a ton of dmg, shouldn't you be gimped in other areas?

 

Am I missing something? Isn't it common knowledge that Tanks shouldn't be hitting people for >1000+?

 

I thought that tanks would only be doing weapon dmg, why am I seeing Tanks sans healers taking on and killing 2-3 peeps at a time? Doing +25k dmg in 10-15 secs, Criting in the +3000 range, and mitigating ~20k in dmg?

 

I know this isn't a 1v1 balanced game....but shouldn't 2v1 balance something? I can't help but believe something is completely broken in this game.

 

I personally received this same complaint from others due to my Vanguard "tank" criting people for over 3k and soloing 2 sentinels ( same faction hutball). Something you have to understand, we cannot have a 31/31/31 spec and we do give up survivability for going dps. It just so happens that a DPS speced Vanguard works *very well* but it is fairly squishy. Switching to an assault build from my tank build lowered my dmg mitiagation from 52% to 30% and my armor rating from 8300 to 4600. When I get hit it hurts and I go down just like any other DPS.

 

When I am true tank specced the most I can hit is about 2.5k on a lucky crit. Otherwise most of my 'high' damage floats between 1k and 2k which is not impressive at all. Check to see if these 'Tanks' are truly running a tank build.

[BrutalPain]

Guards/Juggs are the only AC in game constantly getting the 5k+ damage medal. You can speak about setup time all you want, the fact is it's still happening. What's even funnier is watching it happen on AoE.

 

You should check a thread on the first page titled "Can you crit for 5k?". And yes most class can crit for 5k easily.

Rage Juggs/Guardians are the best burst class in the game yes whats the problem with that?

[Axethales]

Not to get all into the trinity again, But if you're able to mitigate a ton of dmg, shouldn't you be gimped in other areas?

 

You clearly are posting on the wrong forums in the wrong game.

 

My tank doesn't mitigate a damn thing in this game.

 

Level 60 valor with full champion gear and sorcerors stand in my face casting on me basically laughing as my guardian spec'd TANK can't do a damn thing. THey DPS me down as if I'm naked.

 

Tanks do not mitigate internal or force damage, and we do crap DPS.

[Xenon-se]

most pvp damage is either elemental, internal, or has talents that makes them ignore armor.

Ryotknife. No, you are wrong. Again.

 

Almost all damage IS energy or kinetic.

 

Powertech is a class that have access to a lot of elemental damage, but even they have several abilities that deal energy or kinetic damage (such as Rocket Punch, Unload, Rail Shot - even if you can ignore armor on it if you spec the dps tree pyrotech, Retractable Blade...)

 

Lightning from sorcs deal energy damage and is mitigated by armor.

All sword attacks from marauders, assassins and juggernauts deal energy damage.

Almost all rifle and knife attacks from snipers and operatives (not lethality spec) deal energy or kinetic damage (but operatives have a strong armor debuff).

 

this is why tanks do not have that much more survivability than their dps counterparts

No, the reason why tanks IN DPS GEAR do not have that much more survivability compared to tanks in TANK GEAR is because the defensive stats on tank gear give you higher shield, defense and absorb stats.

 

A darkness assassin in dark charge have a lot more utility and survivability compared to a deception assassin in surging charge or a madness assassin in lightning charge. An immortal juggernaut in Soresu lightsaber form have a lot more utility and survivabilty compared to a rage juggernaut in Shii-Sho lightsaber form or a vengeance juggernaut in shien lightsaber form. A shieldtech powertech using ion gas cylinder have a lot more utility and survivability compared to an advanced prototype powertech using high energy gas cylinder or a pyrotech powertech using combustible gas cylinder.

 

All three stats (shield, defense and absorb) are used when you use your personal shield generator to block an incomming attack. You can not block tech or force attacks, only melee and ranged attacks. The only specs that use a lot of melee or ranged attacks are snipers, marauders+juggernauts (not in rage spec) and assassins (not in madness spec).

 

Because fotm right now are tracer missiles and sorcs (that deal only tech and force attacks) many tanks think it is more useful to have DPS GEAR while in their tank stance and using their tank spec.

 

Once more and more people start to play Sniper and Marauder the importance of having defensive stats on your tank pvp armor increase and i think we will see more tanks using tank pvp armor instead of dps pvp armor. time will tell.

[goulet]

For starters people need to differentiate between a player that is an ac that has a tank spec, and someone who is that ac and is specced into tanking.

 

the tanked specced player isn't going to hit you for 5k, even if they stacked dps gear and relics it would be an undertaking to achieve. Additionally most tank specs will tell you that the combination of their damage and defense (which outside of global cd is virtually non existent in pvp since most attacks avoid shield chance) isn't substantial enough to kill anyone 1v1. They're their for survivability and picking of near death targets. The exception to this is the assassin tank tree which actually does proc a guaranteed crit.

 

Guaranteed crit brings me to my next point, dpsing as a tank ac. Yes tank ac's as dps can hit for 5k, but theres 3 things to note.

 

1: hard to throw assassin dps into the equation because if their not tank specced their dps with light armor. juggs/powertech all wear heavy armor.

 

2: The other 2 tank ac's per faction have their dps trees set up to have one ability be their big damage dealer, 1 and only 1. For juggs its either force scream or smash (aoe), bh its rail shot or a fire based ability. And for them to hit the 5k it requires them to stack procs to be able to do it, and not just one but usually a 5 stacks of the proc to reach that number. So their only good when given the time to build those stacks. They burst, and burst quite well, but unlike pure dps classes that burst takes far more set up then they do to reach its full potential.

 

3. dps ac's that have tank trees only have defensive bonuses from gcd abilities that are on 2 + minute cds. the vast majority of times their only means of defense is their high armor rating which only protects against certain types of damage.

Edited March 12, 2012 by goulet

[BrutalPain]

You clearly are posting on the wrong forums in the wrong game.

 

My tank doesn't mitigate a damn thing in this game.

 

Level 60 valor with full champion gear and sorcerors stand in my face casting on me basically laughing as my guardian spec'd TANK can't do a damn thing. THey DPS me down as if I'm naked.

 

Tanks do not mitigate internal or force damage, and we do crap DPS.

 

Tanks do mitigate force dmg. Everyone mitigates force dmg who wears armor.

[Ghamsar]

 

Tanks do not mitigate internal or force damage, and we do crap DPS.

 

So as a Sniper/GS, who should I refrain from attacking? Who mitigates my main attacks? All Tanky classes or just a couple?

[Xenon-se]

Tanks do not mitigate internal or force damage, and we do crap DPS.

There is no such thing as force damage.

 

Force attacks (just like melee attacks, ranged attacks and tech attacks) deal either energy, kinetic, elemental or internal damage.

 

Sorcs only have force attacks and most of their force attacks (for example all attacks that look like purple lightning) deal energy damage (which is mitigated by armor).