Hating on the tank

[Helig]

I don't have the time to respond to all of your statements, but I will say that defense and shield are almost worthless in pvp.

 

They only work against white damage, and the vast majority of damage in pvp is yellow. Critical hits cannot be shielded against, and crit rate eats into shield rate (my crit is 60%, your shield is 50%. I hit you, you're shield chance will be only 40% not 50%).

 

Armor is the only real useful tanking stat, but there is no difference in armor between dps and tank gear. Even then, many classes have such high amounts of armor pen that armor becomes almost useless too. Commandos have 35% baselines, and 20% debuff from talent. Guardians have 20% debuff baseline, and 20% from a talent.

 

Snipers are about the only class that gets really affected by tanking stats.

 

This is generally correct. Armour, raw damage reduction and absorb shields seem to be the only PvP defenses worth investing into.

 

I say, either move more attacks into "white" category (grav rounds, demo rounds, the majority of targetted Force attacks like Project), leaving precious few critical powers, like stuns that in the "yellow" category, or allow at least shielding to work on those yellow attacks.

[Astarica]

Yeah, I can agree with that. Like I said, not one to say they are useless, my Iron Fist PT seems pretty damn potent and can survive a little better then dps of same armor type. But there is an a pretty large number of attacks that just flat ignore it and I know part fot he PT's survival comes from the extra flat mitigation they get in the tree (have a few extra % more then other tanks).

 

The only truly dangerous attack where evasion works on is the 'only 30% or lower' but you're not supposed to count on your evasion to bail you out of that, since that attack is designed to kill you if it connects. I think most DPS classes should have at least two major attacks (30% or lower counts as one) that can be defended/shielded. Most classes would just involve simply reclassification, and in the case of Sorc (all their ability are Force), the lore says you can parry lightning with a lightsaber so can just make an exception for one attack (Force Lightning only).

[kweassa]

I don't have the time to respond to all of your statements, but I will say that defense and shield are almost worthless in pvp.

 

They only work against white damage, and the vast majority of damage in pvp is yellow. Critical hits cannot be shielded against, and crit rate eats into shield rate (my crit is 60%, your shield is 50%. I hit you, you're shield chance will be only 40% not 50%).

 

White damage is a LOT more frequent than you might think.

 

There is no class that puts up a continuous stream of Force/Tech attack. There is always a vital section of an attack cycle that requires significant use of those 'basic', white attacks.

 

 

Armor is the only real useful tanking stat, but there is no difference in armor between dps and tank gear. Even then, many classes have such high amounts of armor pen that armor becomes almost useless too. Commandos have 35% baselines, and 20% debuff from talent. Guardians have 20% debuff baseline, and 20% from a talent.

 

Snipers are about the only class that gets really affected by tanking stats.

 

Now that doesn't explain how I eat offensive build Guard/Juggs for lunch, does it.

[Helig]

Now that doesn't explain how I eat offensive build Guard/Juggs for lunch, does it.

Those must be pretty awful\undergeared Rage Juggs...

[Dayshadow]

The only thing that comes to mind, quite honestly, when I read this is...

 

Wow, way to be a baddie Grav spammer and not know how to use DR.

 

But then gunnery/arsenal is the easiest spec to kill. So I can believe that, in a sense. lol

 

I did my 3 grav rounds and used other abilities (demo round, HiB, +25% full auto) as they became available. I simply never achieved the DPS of the grav/tracer spammers. My grav round wasn't all that great so it seemed to me that there was a problem with tracer crit chance being too high. Everyone else would tell me that their grav round was nowhere near as strong as a mercs tracer. When I played a juggernaut I encountered commandos with ridiculously strong grav rounds too. I did more dmg with those other 3 skill abilities which is how the class is supposed to work I think. Grav/tracer aren't supposed to be main dmg abilities. Just a debuff that does moderate dmg. Gunnery is a PvE spec. It shouldn't dominate PvP. It's supposed to be steady dmg with good ammo management. Assault should be better for PvP, but burn DOTs are the easiest to remove and if DOT can't stop capping anymore it's nigh useless in PvP imo.

 

I've always played tanks and for whatever reason I magically just do more damage as a tank. And in PvP I normally push through multiple attackers in huttball and can hold a door solo against 3 other players for a pretty good amount of time. Only certain melee operatives seem to tear through me like butter.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Dayshadow

[Idrug]

first... let me say that calling defense/shield totally worthless... is an exageration...

 

 

 

BUT...

 

White damage is a LOT more frequent than you might think.

 

There is no class that puts up a continuous stream of Force/Tech attack. There is always a vital section of an attack cycle that requires significant use of those 'basic', white attacks.

 

 

ever heard of sorc/sage?

 

 

the problem is not the NUMBER of skill that dea white dmg against the NUMBER of skill that deal yello dmg...

 

 

the problem is the ALLOCATION of those skill...

 

the sorcer si the imperial most played class... u can't run a single warzone without at least 2 sorcer in it (at least this is how it goes on the EU pvp most populated server...) and can even find warzone with up to 6 sorc in it... now ALL the sorc attack skill are force skill... u will never see a white dmg from a sorcer...

 

now does the sorcere skill summ up to 25% of all the attacks skill in the game? the answear is NO... but with a minimum of 2 sorc per 8 player of a team in Warzone... u have that those 2 (or more) sorcere skill sum up to 25% (or more) of the skill that that team used in the war zone...

 

the Merc/commando have a good number of white dmging skill as well as yellow dmging skill... but what is the most used (and abused) skill in the merc/command arrey? U know it right? Tracer/grav... and just thisnk of it... what is the dmg color of those skill? again... is not the number of tech against ranged weapon skill in the merc arrey that is the problem... but the frequence that are used with...

 

other example... and probably the best one...

 

Mara/sentinel... well in those AC u can count a greater number of white skill rather than yellow skill... but... wait... there is the rage spec... that is actually one of the most played mara/sentinel spec... and where does the greatest dpg output of this spec come from? again... the yellow damaging skill...

 

 

 

so... probably when the devs looked at their initial data... and sow that there were almost a 50% of skill that will go under the defense/shield check... when they sow an AC with only yellow skill (sorc/sage)... and an AC with almost only white skill (sniper/gunslinger)... they didn't think about the frequence with wich those skill whould be used and how much the population imbalance between those 2 AC will ve (sniper/gunsgliner being one of the least played AC against Sorc/sage one.. in not THE most played AC)...

 

 

probably just moving a few of those HIGH FREQUENCY SKILL from yellow to white dmg... will make those stat more worhty...

 

or a different solution could be appling a "reduced shield chance" to tech/force attack... something like 50% of your actual shild rating.. so that if u have a 60% shield rating it will be down to 30% against force and tech... with defense still apllying only to white dmg...

 

 

those are 2 random proposition... but their not important... what is important is the fact that the actrual distibution of white dmg against yellow dmg is not at the 50% that u can think by simply reading the list of the skill in this game...

[Caeliux]

Strictly speaking, there is no pvp tank. No point. Zero.

 

Tell that to someone like me that is a beast in tank gear, and the healer I just guarded stays guarded, also I just don't die.

 

I think OP you need to ask other tanks that do it right, and stop feeding this crowd your L2P issues.

 

Serious..

Edited March 11, 2012 by Caeliux

[Crassius]

OP got something wrong if you think BH/Trooper TANKS are worse in PvP than Jug/Guardians. Last time I checked my BH TANK was doing about twice the damage, and had alot more ranged moves other than "sabre throw" all 30 sec. Did I mention they're both TANKing specced?

 

The "second jump" with buffs and what not you are referring to CAN NOT be learned if you're fully TANK specced as JUG or GUARD. If you're comparing tank abilities then don't pick abilities from the middle/near the top of other trees please.

 

My Jug is fully tank specced, IN PVP and I'm willing to bet pretty much everything that we got it alot worse, OVERALL, than the other tank classes.

[Dar-Ell]

guys, stop arguing. Dont' you see? The devs will read this, think tanks need a buff, and boom, suddenly my Immortal Jugg (no cookie cutter spec, thank you very much) will be able to solo hold a turret in Civil War against not three (the normal) enemies, but the whole team!!!!

 

 

Seriously, I saw the guild summit livestream about PVP and the hedging against tank specs question. Do we need a bit of a buff and or defense stat looked at? Yes. However I don't think it is a as bad as the OP says. I generally do pretty well for myself in warzones, I may never have the highest damage, but I usually come close or even have the highest protection rating. We are not there to do damage, we are there to prevent damage to others. Yes, right now there are alot of attacks that sneak through our defense and hit our mitigation hard. It can be overcome.

 

Honestly, I blame expertise. The haves vs. the have nots. Without that stat (only usefull in PVP) I think you would see the quality of all classes go up.

 

I know, I know...but Dar-Ell, the only reason your Jugg does so well is cause you have a full set of champ gear. To that I say...bull pucky. The full set of champ gear allowed me guard a turret against three people...before I could do it against two. One extra person is not that big a difference. It's about knowing your class and your abilities.

 

*Notation, when I say "guarding a turret solo" I mean preventing a cap and not dying until others of my team can come and help. I by no means state or imply I will defeat those three (or any) enemies who come my way. That is not my job.

[insanelf]

I have to agree that tanks are completely broken in PvP at the moment.

 

I am a Jedi Shadow myself.

 

In a full infiltration spec I kill stuff twice as fast as in a tank spec, but then I die instantly. I can forget any 1 on 2s.

 

In a full Tank spec I kill stuff slower, but I kill a lot more stuff. 1 on 2 is no problem, 1 on 3 is a challenge, but not impossible.

 

Gear? The I use full Stalker's (DPS set) for all my pvp, no matter what spec.

 

I used to run with a shield generator in tank stance, but dropped it in favor of a focus with more DPS.

 

More then half the attacks thrown at you (Sorc/Merc overpopulation) ignore shields, defenses and Armor. The only real reason to be in Tank stance is to have those 9% bonus damage resistance to elemental/internal from stance mastery talent.

 

Shielding in PvE is equally as broken and virtually useless. I have no problem with Lightning/Tracer missle not being deflectable, but Shielding should differentiate somehow from parry/deflect, especially since it does not mitigate all the damage.

[Razorburst]

Honestly, I blame expertise. The haves vs. the have nots. Without that stat (only usefull in PVP) I think you would see the quality of all classes go up.

 

Its not just expertise. its gear in general. many people are using rakata gear after they reach a desired expertise rating. I use to think BM gear wasnt much better because the stat increase seemed small, but it makes a huge difference when you reach your expertise cap and can use pve items for stats.

 

I love tanks. they are by far my favorite spec to heal and i will keep them alive as my #1 focus if i see they are protecting the group. As a healer i see how valuable they are. When someone comes to the forums complaining about how overpowered healing is, there was probably a good tank guarding the healer and protecting them for 10k's of damage. not just guards, but taunts and peals. Dont be lazy. switch that guard around to someone being focus fired. its not a buff and forget ability. Again, you are just as valuable on the battle field as the healer, as the healer wont survive without the tank.

[iceperson]

Tell that to someone like me that is a beast in tank gear, and the healer I just guarded stays guarded, also I just don't die.

 

I think OP you need to ask other tanks that do it right, and stop feeding this crowd your L2P issues.

 

Serious..

 

how cute, you think those 4 free medals you get for taunting mean you're skilled and actually helping your team...

[Flarenza]

Tanks can be fixed just by a few simple changes.

 

1. Shields should affect ALL attacks and be separate from the crit/hit chart. Crits should only be on a miss/hit/crit chart like every other game.

 

2. Either add the Resistance stat to tank gear in the game, or make it where ALL attacks have to worry about the basic defense stat. Makes no sense to have a stat in the game, but not even put gear in with it.

 

3. Drop the 'special attack' accuracy down to 90%. With it at a full 100% it makes it too easy to negate defense/resistance by getting accuracy rating, or like most people do they forgo it completely for damage stats.

 

This would both balance tanks who are truly tanks, ie. tank gear AND spec, as well as reduce the whole 'too much damage' that Bioware has been trying to fix. Afterwards all they'd need to work on then is how strong healing is in pvp.

[Redshirtricky]

Tanks can be fixed just by a few simple changes.

 

1. Shields should affect ALL attacks and be separate from the crit/hit chart. Crits should only be on a miss/hit/crit chart like every other game.

 

As a 50 smuggler scoundrel, I honestly find it funny that my sucker punches can completely bypass shields because it's tech damage while my Sith Juggernaught's Impale, Ravage, Sundering Assault, Obliterate are all melee damage and thus can be blocked by shields.

 

My fists >>> my red lightsaber. I love this game, it makes me chuckle.

[Rehneu]

guys, stop arguing. Dont' you see?

 

It's about knowing your class and your abilities.

 

 

Edited the posting to reflect this right here. This is by far the single most important posting of any thread on these forums. Ok maybe not all of the topics, but most of them relating to classes. It does indeed all come down to knowing your class and abilities.

 

Know your limitations.

[Migrayn]

damage reduction from armor seems ok but the fact shields dont block most attacks mean shadow tanks get screwed over. They have lower armor and damage reduction and higher shield. Since shield is useless they end up with less mitigation compared to the other tanks. They also do not have strong cooldowns to make up for poor damage.reduction. they dont get a damage shield.

 

Shield needs to have a chance at blocking most if not all damage types.

[Rehneu]

how cute, you think those 4 free medals you get for taunting mean you're skilled and actually helping your team...

 

Maybe not but the average 7-10 medals with upwards to 60 kills in a single warzone without dying sure does. Again, all about knowing your limitations and knowing your class.

[Azrienov]

Tell that to someone like me that is a beast in tank gear, and the healer I just guarded stays guarded, also I just don't die.

 

I think OP you need to ask other tanks that do it right, and stop feeding this crowd your L2P issues.

 

Serious..

 

Or you could be good, and go hybrid tank and do all that you just did. I don't really have a L2P issue, so much as an issue with the design. I run over tanks for fun on my merc. Either with tech, or elemental damage. You have nothing to stop those attacks. All I do is seperate you and your healer, and you aren't so beast. Every class can do what you can do as a hybrid, and they do it better.

[Dar-Ell]

how cute, you think those 4 free medals you get for taunting mean you're skilled and actually helping your team...

 

aww, how cute, you think I care about those medals. Honestly I really don't. Let's take Huttball for example. If I am underpowered and not necessary, why is it that when I am running next to the ball carrier the other team will focus fire me first? Actually, I love it when that happens and I don't even have Guard on the ball carrier...You get no medals for dying like that and yet it helps the team.

 

Voidstar now, on say...attacking round. Why is it when I harrass a healer and three or four of the enemy team come to help him and it takes me a while to die that the rest of the team can plant a bomb? On defense tanks do have it worse since there is no way of breaking LOS without leaving the doors and ranged can own them, but I digress about that.

 

I've already said I can hold a turret in Civil War until my team comes to help out. Yeah, tank specs have it slightly worse in PVP, but it can be overcome and it is a mindset. If you are looking to outdamage everyone else, play a DPS. If you are looking for a self sacrificing, team orientated play style where objectives and winning (or at least having fun with what you are doing) are more important, then welcome to the Tank.

[Caeliux]

how cute, you think those 4 free medals you get for taunting mean you're skilled and actually helping your team...

 

Oh how cute, you think metals = wins.

 

You act like I care when I drag the ball in Huttball all the way to the endzone laughing at dps.

 

You act like I care when I lay down Slow Time, Force Breach, CC, Force Pull, not to mention all the things I do to annoy the other team.

 

How cute you think that Tanks should care anything about medals, when winning is the goal of PvP, not epeen glory.

 

How cute.

[Caeliux]

If you are looking for a self sacrificing, team orientated play style where objectives and winning (or at least having fun with what you are doing) are more important, then welcome to the Tank.

 

You have it all wrong.

 

If you want to laugh at other teams damage dealers, and have a few spot healers helping you along the way..

 

Go Tank.

 

If you think games should be won by utterly embarrassing the other team.

 

Go Tank.

 

Edited March 11, 2012 by Caeliux

[Caeliux]

Every class can do what you can do as a hybrid, and they do it better.

 

A full set tank can stand there better than any class in the game. You going tell me that a hybrid is better equipped to withstand damage than a full tank geared player?

 

You honesty need to reevaluate your way of thinking, cause that is complete false.

 

No hybrid will have more hp, adsorb, defense rating, better than a full set gear tank.

 

Don't make me explain in high detail what I mean, I will fill a whole page on what I mean on this matter.

 

Please stop feeding people BS on hybrid is better.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Caeliux

[Dayshadow]

OP got something wrong if you think BH/Trooper TANKS are worse in PvP than Jug/Guardians. Last time I checked my BH TANK was doing about twice the damage, and had alot more ranged moves other than "sabre throw" all 30 sec. Did I mention they're both TANKing specced?

 

I do great damage in PvP as a juggernaut immortal (not melee operative good, but good). Full on Immortal by the way. In fact, I win most 1v1 fights and can fend off multiple opponents for quit some time without heals. I believe all classes need a spammable ranged attack. Even if the melee ranged attack does 1 dmg. Like a small force push. They should at least be able to put more than one player into combat slow from range. Especially in huttball.

 

I will however agree that given the nature of melee "ammo" management the ranged classes have an advantage beyond attack range. If not specced (vengeance), you cannot produce necessary aoe on command like a class that starts with "ammo" fullly loaded. You always have to build rage first which makes arriving just in time when multiple guys are capping... problematic. I believe that upon death mellee classes should have at least half their rage bar filled once they revive and it should be locked at 50% until they enter combat. That or ranged classes should have the same ammo they had when they died once they revive and it should stay that way until they enter combat.

 

 

The "second jump" with buffs and what not you are referring to CAN NOT be learned if you're fully TANK specced as JUG or GUARD. If you're comparing tank abilities then don't pick abilities from the middle/near the top of other trees please.

 

 

They get two. They get "Force Leap" and Intercede at 50. The third leap is in the (supposed) PvP spec, Rage. If you meant the 8 sec CC immunity (TOTALLY OVERPOWERED in Huttball) after a force leap that requires a hiefty investment in a (supposed) PvE DPS tree. Personally, I believe Vengeance is more PvP oreintated than Rage.

 

My Jug is fully tank specced, IN PVP and I'm willing to bet pretty much everything that we got it alot worse, OVERALL, than the other tank classes.

 

I am a great Immortal Juggernaut. But I am a legend as a Shield Vanguard. Ranged attacks, good melee ranged attacks, higher base mitigation, "force leap" and "force pull".

[Ironleg]

@OP I agree but, this is old news. Get dps gear or just roll dps.

 

+1 for the Dutch Rudder ROFL.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Ironleg

[DoctorNordo]

 

[*]Depends on which sci-fi canon you go by so while you make sense, you also don't. NRG shields technically disrupt energy, so while your lightning argument makes sense, the missiles one doesn't.

 

 

 

Just to point out, according to Star Wars canon, shields do block physical objects, otherwise taking out the shield generator of the 2nd Death Star in RotJ would have been completely pointless when the fleet could have flown straight through it instead. In-game space combat also sees missiles impacting upon enemy shields.

 

From Wookieepedia:

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Deflector_shield

 

Deflector shields, also known as deflector screens, deflectors or simply shields, were translucent or transparent energy fields produced by deflector shield generators. These generators could be placed on planets, droids, starships, space stations and individual buildings. The primary purpose of the shield was to block or deflect projectiles and lasers from hitting the object under protection.

 

There were two distinct types of deflector shield: ray shields, also known as energy shields, and particle shields. The former protected against energy-based attacks, such as blaster or laser cannon fire, while the latter was developed in response to physical attacks, ranging from projectile missiles and incoming vehicles to asteroids and meteors.

Edited March 11, 2012 by DoctorNordo