1.2 = best pvp gear for free, and no reason to play rated. people are quitting

[richardya]

Regardless of what the scale/difficulty of progression is, there will always be an end to the progression. Does it really matter if the cap is 1 month instead of 2 months? From the start it hasn't exactly been a hardcore progression game. Sounds to me like you already found the solution that BW is pushing with their legacy system.

 

They are moving towards removing progression. If you buy gear then starting alts will not give you progression back.

[Sugarray]

Well, we agree somewhat then. Good enough I guess.

 

Beverage on me.

 

I'll take that

[SneakyErvin]

What makes me think?

 

Easy.

 

1. Top 4 or 5 classes are imperial

 

Uhm... lol... what?

 

Let me say one thing. Mirror. Does that word ring a bell. Or do you really think there is a difference between imperial and republic classes?

 

And @ the guy comparing PvE progression to PvP. You cant have a ramp up gearing for PvP like you can in PvE, sure within a patch you can but cross-patches you cant in a fair manner. Because PvP difficulty isnt a static thing, but in PvE it is.

 

You can have people run you through PvE content if you join the game late.

 

So stop with the stupid PvE and PvP connections, it doesnt work.

 

You also PvE for one reason, well two hopefully. To get new gear to tackle new PvE content aswell as seeing the dungeons and such. We PvP to fight the other guys, not for shiny gear.

 

Having PvP tiered would be like putting a 8 or 16 man raidboss in the HM-FPs each new patch. It's already kinda like that for the fresh 50s coming into WZs in PvE gear trying to take down a champ or BM.

 

IMO there should be a level 50 set (no set bonuses) buyable for credits/wz comms for entry level PvP. Just so people can get the expertise at start. Something below centurion, heck, armoring mods with expertise would be enough, crafter made or buyable for daily comms.

[Sugarray]

Uhm... lol... what?

 

Let me say one thing. Mirror. Does that word ring a bell. Or do you really think there is a difference between imperial and republic classes?

 

And @ the guy comparing PvE progression to PvP. You cant have a ramp up gearing for PvP like you can in PvE, sure within a patch you can but cross-patches you cant in a fair manner. Because PvP difficulty isnt a static thing, but in PvE it is.

 

You can have people run you through PvE content if you join the game late.

 

So stop with the stupid PvE and PvP connections, it doesnt work.

 

You also PvE for one reason, well two hopefully. To get new gear to tackle new PvE content aswell as seeing the dungeons and such. We PvP to fight the other guys, not for shiny gear.

 

Having PvP tiered would be like putting a 8 or 16 man raidboss in the HM-FPs each new patch. It's already kinda like that for the fresh 50s coming into WZs in PvE gear trying to take down a champ or BM.

 

IMO there should be a level 50 set (no set bonuses) buyable for credits/wz comms for entry level PvP. Just so people can get the expertise at start. Something below centurion, heck, armoring mods with expertise would be enough, crafter made or buyable for daily comms.

 

The problem is that PvE keeps you grinding, PvP, in 1.2 likely will not for a lot of Pvp'ers.

 

I support even playing field, but I want to be rewarded for spending a lot of time in PvP and im not sure vanity will do it for a very long time.

 

Besides, as I have pointed out a million times, the difference between champion gear and BM gear is very minor which make Skill> gear true.

 

Why not continue with this formula to keep people happy? A long with adding a set with Expertise for new 50's so they dont get completly roflstomped.

 

the PURPOSE of pvp is what is going to be missing. And before you say it, if you just pvp 1 hour you can do without the gear progression but you might as well play any other FPS. This is an MMO, some people want to spend a lot of hours on their char and progress them.

[MPagano]

It's interesting to me to see how devisive this issue is for so many players. Although, I have to say that those who are condemning the shift away from time sink = gear = distinct advantage are being overly dramatic with regards to its impact on the player base.

 

Outside of the forums, I've only heard positive responses to this from the pvp community. One of the bigger pvp guilds on my server was losing members and about to move back to WoW until these changes were announced. Now they, like me, are eager to see how the changes play out.

 

They're very promising for people who seek a competitive pvp environment where progression is a result of performance and the only advantage a player can obtain is from his/her experience and execution in the warzone.

 

The only thing that hasn't been touched on yet and needs to be discussed at length is the intent for open pvp in this game. 4 warzones aren't going to keep people around for long.

[Incendergel]

Uhm... lol... what?

 

Let me say one thing. Mirror. Does that word ring a bell. Or do you really think there is a difference between imperial and republic classes?

 

 

Yes. I'm aware of how the mirror works. Now this "could" be all speculation but the guild summit "nda" was listed and some new info has come out. Out of that data class distribution from guild summit info, not mine, was:

 

Sorc

Assassin

Merc

Marauder

Sentinel

 

That would be Imperial 4 out of the top 5...

 

And @ the guy comparing PvE progression to PvP. You cant have a ramp up gearing for PvP like you can in PvE, sure within a patch you can but cross-patches you cant in a fair manner. Because PvP difficulty isnt a static thing, but in PvE it is.

 

Me again. Why? Both aspects of the game put equal time in. Why should PvE get rewards and PvP doesn't?

 

You can have people run you through PvE content if you join the game late.

 

You play warzones. You do dailies for mods.

 

So stop with the stupid PvE and PvP connections, it doesnt work.

 

It does. You want to enter a PvP warzone and expect to be on equal footing just like someone who has been PvP'ing since launch. It doesn't work that way. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet you that you want to be able to take your full top tier gear into PvP and have an advantage....because you would.

 

You also PvE for one reason, well two hopefully. To get new gear to tackle new PvE content aswell as seeing the dungeons and such. We PvP to fight the other guys, not for shiny gear.

 

I agree with the PvE - I do.

 

I also agree with why we PvP.

 

However, there has to be a reason to engage. Like it or not, people want to work towards something and a elo rating isn't it. Otherwise we would all be playing a console game or something. Color isn't going to be it.

 

IMO there should be a level 50 set (no set bonuses) buyable for credits/wz comms for entry level PvP. Just so people can get the expertise at start. Something below centurion, heck, armoring mods with expertise would be enough, crafter made or buyable for daily comms.

 

You already have it. You can ding 50, have banked enough for 5 bags, plus the one you buy at the time. Do a few more games and be in centurion gear. Stop asking the Devs to add more gear that is easy to obtain without any work.

 

See - that is the problem. PvE folks want to be able to be elite, and say progression is ok. Then they want to take their Rakata gear into a PvP warzone and melt faces.

[MPagano]

Pve is progression based. You have to do things before you can do the next level of difficulty, agreed?

 

[....]

 

So the question is easy. If PvE gear was treated as PvP gear is who do you think would actually do heroic, or even nightmare? Would be a moot point, yeah?

 

 

You continue to make this point without addressing the faulty assumption that conditions which make PvE gear progression a necessity in its current form are common conditions in PvP.

 

It's easy to see why this deduction can't hold water. PvE progression in gear is intimately related to the nature of the challenge in PvE. The idea that NPC bosses are scripted and must scale in a way that continues to be a challenge requires that player characters scale similarly.

 

This is not the case in PvP. The fundamental differences stem from the nature of challenge in PvP. Players are the challenge. Players are unscripted, and don't need to be artificially inflated in order to create a sense of progression. PvP players seek progression in the form of epeen. In other words, they want things that show how much better they are than other players. Titles, color schemes, mounts, vanity pets, etc. are all examples of achievement indicators.

 

PvP players don't want a handicap through gear. When there is gear progression, the player base is staggered and you cannot have true, rewarding pvp experiences until the gap is diminished.

 

As much as people come on the forums and say that people will stop PvPing without gear progression, they're not representative of the PvP community. Plenty of players on these forums have expressed that they don't care for gear progression, and they are excited about having more players on a level playing field. The more challenges available for the player, the more progression.

 

These are the fundamental differences between the idea of progression in PvE and PvP.

Edited March 15, 2012 by MPagano

[richardya]

It's interesting to me to see how devisive this issue is for so many players. Although, I have to say that those who are condemning the shift away from time sink = gear = distinct advantage are being overly dramatic with regards to its impact on the player base.

 

It's very annoying when people with your point of view feel compelled to add little statements like "distinct advantage"

I think the reason you do this is because without that untruth your point of view makes no sense. If there is a big advantage that will ruin PvP, if there is a small advantage than it will keep progression and competitiveness. You people insist on saying progression has to be a huge advantage. The possibility of small (ie 2% stats or 4%) progression is just ignored by you people.

If people want gear progression for a small advantage why remove it? Its a progression based MMO.

Edited March 15, 2012 by richardya

[MPagano]

It's very annoying when people with your point of view feel compelled to add little statements like "distinct advantage"

I think the reason you do this is because without that untruth your point of view makes no sense. If there is a big advantage that will ruin PvP, if there is a small advantage than it will keep progression and competitiveness.

If people want gear progression for a small advantage why remove it? Its a progression based MMO.

 

I don't see what you mean by an untruth in the statement that gear provides a distinct advantage. Are you suggesting that the pvp gear doesn't give a player an edge over someone with less pvp gear?

 

My point of view makes sense independent of these ideas anyways, though. PvP challenge does not require a form of stat inflation in order for there to be progression. It requires things that enhance the competitive landscape like different warzones, open pvp objectives, and bragging rights.

 

What's annoying for people from my perspective is how vehemently people defend the notion of gear progression while admitting that it typically offers only a slight advantage. Either it's significant and deteriorates the PvP experience for the larger group, or it's a slight advantage that doesn't serve any practical purpose. Which weak argument would you choose?

[Sugarray]

It's very annoying when people with your point of view feel compelled to add little statements like "distinct advantage"

I think the reason you do this is because without that untruth your point of view makes no sense. If there is a big advantage that will ruin PvP, if there is a small advantage than it will keep progression and competitiveness. You people insist on saying progression has to be a huge advantage. The possibility of small (ie 2% stats or 4%) progression is just ignored by you people.

If people want gear progression for a small advantage why remove it? Its a progression based MMO.

 

Agreed.

 

If I wanted what the other guy called ''true pvp'' I'd play Battlefield etc. I want to pvp cause I like it, I really do. But I also want to better my char, throught gear, reputation etc. etc.

 

A difference between regular FPS PvP and MMO is that your char actually matter to you.

 

If Pvp is purposeless then you'd only do it 1 hour a day or every other day.

[Sugarray]

I don't see what you mean by an untruth in the statement that gear provides a distinct advantage. Are you suggesting that the pvp gear doesn't give a player an edge over someone with less pvp gear?

 

My point of view makes sense independent of these ideas anyways, though. PvP challenge does not require a form of stat inflation in order for there to be progression. It requires things that enhance the competitive landscape like different warzones, open pvp objectives, and bragging rights.

 

What's annoying for people from my perspective is how vehemently people defend the notion of gear progression while admitting that it typically offers only a slight advantage. Either it's significant and deteriorates the PvP experience for the larger group, or it's a slight advantage that doesn't serve any practical purpose. Which weak argument would you choose?

 

If you actually did PvP you'd know that the difference between Champion gear and BM is very minor.

 

As I've said 10000 times WE WANT A CARROT ON A STICK, vanity isnt ''worth'' it for many PvP'ers.

 

How is this so hard to understand? Small gear advantage Skill>gear STILL

[Incendergel]

 

These are the fundamental differences between the idea of progression in PvE and PvP.

 

I cut a lot out.

 

Yes. There is a difference. Scripted encounter vs. player. But it stops there.

 

The point I'm making to you and others is that it is perfectly OK to ask someone to do preliminary work before they enter your raid. Yet it isn't ok to ask the same people to do preliminary work before they are competitive in a warzone.

 

You see what I did there?

 

Someone who wants to pvp can do warzones before they reach 50, save enough valor for 5 bags. Buy a bag before, ding 50, and have 6 bags all ready to go. How much centurion gear do you think that is? Now go look at the centurion gear, then champion gear, and now finally battlemaster gear and tell me the difference?

 

It is the same because in order to be competitive in a raid setting I have to do something first. Why can't you understand the same options existing for people who want to be competitive in PvP? I mean, really?

[Incendergel]

If you actually did PvP you'd know that the difference between Champion gear and BM is very minor.

 

As I've said 10000 times WE WANT A CARROT ON A STICK, vanity isnt ''worth'' it for many PvP'ers.

 

How is this so hard to understand? Small gear advantage Skill>gear STILL

 

Yo Sugar - another beverage on me.

 

I'm starting to warm up to you.

[MPagano]

I understand it very well. I guess some people just prefer chasing gear for endless upgrades while others prefer to jump in and play. If we wanted to chase carrots we would raid.

[Afflictionz]

Uhm... lol... what?

 

Let me say one thing. Mirror. Does that word ring a bell. Or do you really think there is a difference between imperial and republic classes?

 

And @ the guy comparing PvE progression to PvP. You cant have a ramp up gearing for PvP like you can in PvE, sure within a patch you can but cross-patches you cant in a fair manner. Because PvP difficulty isnt a static thing, but in PvE it is.

 

You can have people run you through PvE content if you join the game late.

 

So stop with the stupid PvE and PvP connections, it doesnt work.

 

You also PvE for one reason, well two hopefully. To get new gear to tackle new PvE content aswell as seeing the dungeons and such. We PvP to fight the other guys, not for shiny gear.

 

Having PvP tiered would be like putting a 8 or 16 man raidboss in the HM-FPs each new patch. It's already kinda like that for the fresh 50s coming into WZs in PvE gear trying to take down a champ or BM.

 

IMO there should be a level 50 set (no set bonuses) buyable for credits/wz comms for entry level PvP. Just so people can get the expertise at start. Something below centurion, heck, armoring mods with expertise would be enough, crafter made or buyable for daily comms.

 

yea! We pvp just to kill guys! Screw pvp gear progression let's all just run around in tuxedo t-shirts with no stats yay, sounds awsome!

 

 

 

.... Good try though bud

Edited March 15, 2012 by Afflictionz

[Sugarray]

I understand it very well. I guess some people just prefer chasing gear for endless upgrades while others prefer to jump in and play. If we wanted to chase carrots we would raid.

 

Tbh, to pay monthly fee I have to have something I need to chase. Otherwise, when I reach my goal I'd unsub.

[Dego_Locc]

You continue to make this point without addressing the faulty assumption that conditions which make PvE gear progression a necessity in its current form are common conditions in PvP.

 

It's easy to see why this deduction can't hold water. PvE progression in gear is intimately related to the nature of the challenge in PvE. The idea that NPC bosses are scripted and must scale in a way that continues to be a challenge requires that player characters scale similarly.

 

This is not the case in PvP. The fundamental differences stem from the nature of challenge in PvP. Players are the challenge. Players are unscripted, and don't need to be artificially inflated in order to create a sense of progression. PvP players seek progression in the form of epeen. In other words, they want things that show how much better they are than other players. Titles, color schemes, mounts, vanity pets, etc. are all examples of achievement indicators.

 

PvP players don't want a handicap through gear. When there is gear progression, the player base is staggered and you cannot have true, rewarding pvp experiences until the gap is diminished.

 

As much as people come on the forums and say that people will stop PvPing without gear progression, they're not representative of the PvP community. Plenty of players on these forums have expressed that they don't care for gear progression, and they are excited about having more players on a level playing field. The more challenges available for the player, the more progression.

 

These are the fundamental differences between the idea of progression in PvE and PvP.

I think on the whole the argument is 50/50 half for, and half against. You act as if only 5% of the pvpers out there don't share your views.

 

I am FOR gear progression in the game. And I also think this is just another step to make this game easy mode.

[MartyrLXXVII]

Agreed.

 

If I wanted what the other guy called ''true pvp'' I'd play Battlefield etc. I want to pvp cause I like it, I really do. But I also want to better my char, throught gear, reputation etc. etc.

 

A difference between regular FPS PvP and MMO is that your char actually matter to you.

 

If Pvp is purposeless then you'd only do it 1 hour a day or every other day.

 

And its been said a thousand times in these threads.

 

IT WOULD NOT BE PURPOSELESS!

 

You can still have tons of progression (likely more intact) without STATS. But that's Ll this is about, you people can't live without your stats. That's why you don't play Battlefield for pvp, you k.ow you suck without an advantage. If it was just about progressing yourself or toon then that's what rankings are for.

 

Why can't you people just man up and accept the best way to say you are better then someone else is to beat them without a numbers advantage.

[MPagano]

If you actually did PvP you'd know that the difference between Champion gear and BM is very minor.

 

As I've said 10000 times WE WANT A CARROT ON A STICK, vanity isnt ''worth'' it for many PvP'ers.

 

How is this so hard to understand? Small gear advantage Skill>gear STILL

 

You think I'm voicing my opinion in these debates and I don't PvP? That's pretty silly. I pvp plenty. I have almost full champ and a second set of centurion for my dps spec. I pvp with people in full BM, mixed BM/rakata, all rakata, etc.

 

I know what you'r'e saying. I understand what you want. I'm simply saying that's not the only way to do it. It doesn't serve your argument to try and refute my point by simply saying that your preference differs so I'm wrong.

 

All of you that are opposed to my view are trying to tell me that I'm wrong. There's just no recourse for that logic. I'm as right as you are. It can be done my way, and it can be done your way.

 

I wouldn't' be so adamant about my opinion if BW wasn't demonstrating their own indecision on this fundamental approach. The path they've set forth with rankings and war hero gear suggest that they may be open to trying it the way I endorse. I'm simply voicing my opinion like everyone else.

 

And please, please stop suggesting that we go play FPS games. I don't really have the energy to demonstrate why an FPS or RTS or fighter game is different from MMO pvp. Maybe someone else can help you with that distinction.

 

TL;DR We both have valid views on the subject. Save your energy and stop trying to prove that I don't like the color blue. Continue to voice your opinions and just wait and see what BW decides. You don't have another option.

[Keldaur]

However, there has to be a reason to engage. Like it or not, people want to work towards something and a elo rating isn't it.

.

 

How do you know this ? I mean, pulling arguments out of your *** doesn't count. Many games had proven you wrong btw.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Keldaur

[richardya]

I don't see what you mean by an untruth in the statement that gear provides a distinct advantage. Are you suggesting that the pvp gear doesn't give a player an edge over someone with less pvp gear?

 

I want gear progression to be a slight advantage. Similiar to Battlemaster over champion. Champion over centurian is a big advantage. 1HP is an edge. 1,000 Hp is an edge 10,000HP is an edge. There is a point where an edge is ok an a point where it is not. The "Untruth" is saying people who enjoy progression want a distinct advantage. Or as others put it, roll over lesser geared.

 

My point of view makes sense independent of these ideas anyways, though. PvP challenge does not require a form of stat inflation in order for there to be progression. It requires things that enhance the competitive landscape like different warzones, open pvp objectives, and bragging rights

 

MMO's require progression. PvP is part of an MMO. If you PvP you still level from 1 to 50, you still get datacrons, you still can crewsjkill for advantages, you still have different classes. Gear progression is no different. That being said it must be kept in check to not ruin PvP

 

What's annoying for people from my perspective is how vehemently people defend the notion of gear progression while admitting that it typically offers only a slight advantage. Either it's significant and deteriorates the PvP experience for the larger group, or it's a slight advantage that doesn't serve any practical purpose. Which weak argument would you choose?

 

Firstly, I am not discussing what is, but what should be. I think there should be moderate progression. Similiar to battlemaster over champion gear. It did not give you a huge advantage but was fun to go after. Champion over centurian, on the other hand, is a huge advantage. Your two choices are black and white. I want it to be a minor advantage.

 

There are two sides here. One doesnt want gear to decide matches and one side enjoys progression. The not so complicated solution is progression that doesnt imbalance the game. 1% 2% 3% whatever.

Edited March 15, 2012 by richardya

[OdamanPrime]

Noone cares, this is a placeholder for any mmo with pvp being more than an afterthought of the devs. I don't think anyone can say with a straight face they expect this game to be something in regards to pvp.

[Ashmadai]

Why do you think they start you off at level 1 and not level 50? I am no expert but i think this is a progression game. I think it's fun improving your character. I think, in PvP, they need to limit the progression to not ruin the competition for others. Removing all progression will ensure that people pay for about one month. Progression games get monthly subscribers.

 

I really enjoyed gearing up a character. When I finished battlemaster I did not enjoy rolling over other people with better gear. I started another character to progress because there was no more progression. You people saying progression is all about rolling over others are just wrong. You are imagining what you think other people enjoy. How about asking them instead?

 

In Guild Wars 2, gear means nothing in pvp, and it's an even playing field. However, you have small scale warzone type pvp as well as server vs. server large scale pvp, where you can help contribute to your server getting ranked higher on a list.

 

The only reward for pvping in that game is cool looking vanity armor. Which game between that one and this one will have more successful pvp long term? If you don't know the answer, I'll give you a hint: It has no lightsabers.

 

I love TOR, but it will never have a great pvp end game as long as it has a terrible pvp only gear stat.

[Sugarray]

I think on the whole the argument is 50/50 half for, and half against. You act as if only 5% of the pvpers out there don't share your views.

 

I am FOR gear progression in the game. And I also think this is just another step to make this game easy mode.

 

I agree.

 

Those who are more ''hardcore'' pvp'er will leave before me cause im a Star wars sucker and I play with some friends. But eventually that'll mean that the game is too easy for me as well, so Ill end up leaving..

 

Everybody just needs to realize that MMO is for a large audience, you need something for casual players and dedicated players.

 

And please, dont listen to casual Joe with his I PAIDED MONEY I ALSO WANT STUFF, cause the game will simply become too easy and the time you spend on it would be worthless cause Joe gets it w/o effort.

[Incendergel]

I understand it very well. I guess some people just prefer chasing gear for endless upgrades while others prefer to jump in and play. If we wanted to chase carrots we would raid.

 

You are looking at it wrong is all.

 

We can all jump in a play just like we can all jump in and raid. The difference though is that we are playing a game as someone most excellently stated it, to enhance our character. That is why we play MMO's. Otherwise we would all be playing BF3 or some other console/pc game.

 

Time in yields something. Call it a carrot or a ho-ho, I really don't care. But I think we would both agree our avatars in a MMO are near and dear to us. We want them to be different than the others. In looks, in abilities, and achievements. Those all require some form of progression.

 

If 1.2 goes as is then progression for the PvP side of things won't be there. I mean maybe some are ok with color so I could be wrong. But we don't have a web portal to brag about how many kills, cry about how many deaths, highest hit, weakest hit, etc. So that isn't there. What else is there?

 

3 warzones, 4th with patch. Still can't start a warzone properly with 8 players, lower side usually wins. I mean it goes on and on. Like you said yesterday - why don't we all PvP naked then if that is what we got.