Advanced Prototype

[Timeskeeper]

I personally like the Advanced Prototype tree myself. I love the heat management, i love hydraulic overrides every 30 sec in pvp it really is amazing.

 

Lets be honest now lol. In pvp terms the tree seriously lacks compared to pyrotech. The dps that pyrotech puts out is absolutely insane coupled with the defensive cooldowns it has makes pyrotech a more logical choice for pvp dps. Heck even shield tech provides more survivability and way more utility compared to Advanced Prototype.

 

Now im not asking for a complete overhaul to Advanced prototype i just feel it needs one small tweak to make the tree shine. That tweak is a SNARE. If retractable blade applied a 50% movement reduction it would really put some synergy to the tree. With the 15% movement speed buff and the 30% speed boost with hydraulic overrides the snare would make them stand out even more. It would also help prototype flamethrower so much if your opponent was snared and couldnt just simply walk out of it which would also raise your overall damage output because you would actually land it more and use it more without having to rely on your stun.

[Gnugthreeonefive]

I agree, but I'm afraid the better solution might be a nerf to Pyro.

[Agooz]

I agree, but I'm afraid the better solution might be a nerf to Pyro.

 

go back to your sorcerer and leave us alone pls

[Varicite]

I agree, but I'm afraid the better solution might be a nerf to Pyro.

 

Pyro performs at an equal level to other melee-centric dps AC's. AP performs below most other melee-centric dps AC's.

 

Why is nerfing Pyro a better solution? <.<

[LacerdaI]

I play PT Pyrotech, im 3/4 BM and so far the damage output on it is absurd. In 1 v 1s, I can kill anything except Assassins/Shaddows since they can wipe my DOT rendering my railshots useless, but I still manage to put up a good fight.

 

Though, im not saying pyrotech should get nerfed. Classes arent balanced according to 1 v 1s so pyrotech shouldnt get nerfed- but if it does, make it a very small nerf. Why? Our survivability is absolute ****, 1 shield, 1 CC break, 1 HOT (which doesnt really make a difference most of the time).

 

I tried AP in my BM eliminators which isnt the ideal to go with but i gave it a try just for fun and it was more consistent, i loved the mobility but I felt more like an annoyance rather then, well.. a killer.

[oceansofmars]

My killspread with my pyro is about the same as when I play any other class. Its really a matter of who the pilot is I think.

[Theology]

I would love to try AP but it is just down right inferior to pyrotech.

[BlazingShadow]

While it is true you will do significantly less dmg than pyrotech, AP is actually fine because it has what Pyro doesnt: survivability

 

unfortunately not everyone is a solo player so it's not for everyone. The best solution is to add maybe a little more kick to AP and tone down pyro slightly, or bring AP up so it's not more dmg than pyro, but more than it is now.

[Agooz]

While it is true you will do significantly less dmg than pyrotech, AP is actually fine because it has what Pyro doesnt: survivability

 

unfortunately not everyone is a solo player so it's not for everyone. The best solution is to add maybe a little more kick to AP and tone down pyro slightly, or bring AP up so it's not more dmg than pyro, but more than it is now.

 

I have soloed all the quests, done insane amount of FP pugs, at 50 in t2/champion gear and I still pug all the time, I 100% queue solo in pvp, and I would NEVER touch the AP tree. The survivability that the tree gives you is absolutely useless in pve, since you're better off as a shieldtech if you want to survive.

 

It is even more useless in PvP. If you want survivability in pvp you have 2 options, going shieldtech hybrid 21/2/18 or Pyro. You survive way more encounters if you can burst your foe in half the time.

 

All that AP tree gives you is some cute bells and whistles.

[Theology]

All that AP tree gives you is some cute bells and whistles.

 

Couldnt have said it better myself.

[BlazingShadow]

I have soloed all the quests, done insane amount of FP pugs, at 50 in t2/champion gear and I still pug all the time, I 100% queue solo in pvp, and I would NEVER touch the AP tree. The survivability that the tree gives you is absolutely useless in pve, since you're better off as a shieldtech if you want to survive.

 

It is even more useless in PvP. If you want survivability in pvp you have 2 options, going shieldtech hybrid 21/2/18 or Pyro. You survive way more encounters if you can burst your foe in half the time.

 

All that AP tree gives you is some cute bells and whistles.

 

Once again if youhaven't tried AP thoroughly for at least a week, then your opinion is not very credible. I have played each Powertech spec for at least 3 weeks each now (alot more time as a shieldtech) and I gurantee that my survivability is far greater as an AP due to the escapability of the class, both due to Hydraulic Overrides and the extra HoT to stave off DoTs. Seriously, as an AP, the only way you die is by playing stupid. My damage, not so great, but I am able to solo every class 1v1 unless they happen to outgear me by -alot-. I can also outlast every class with AP's resource management.

 

3rd place and up for medals, moderate damage, and zero deaths is nothing to shake a stick at.

 

 

But by all means stay pyro, I dont have a problem with being the unique class on the battlefield.

Edited March 11, 2012 by BlazingShadow

[Agooz]

Once again if youhaven't tried AP thoroughly for at least a week, then your opinion is not very credible. I have played each Powertech spec for at least 3 weeks each now (alot more time as a shieldtech) and I gurantee that my survivability is far greater as an AP due to the escapability of the class, both due to Hydraulic Overrides and the extra HoT to stave off DoTs. Seriously, as an AP, the only way you die is by playing stupid. My damage, not so great, but I am able to solo every class 1v1 unless they happen to outgear me by -alot-. I can also outlast every class with AP's resource management.

 

3rd place and up for medals, moderate damage, and zero deaths is nothing to shake a stick at.

 

 

But by all means stay pyro, I dont have a problem with being the unique class on the battlefield.

 

With all due respect, yes you are right I may not have tried AP for a week, but I didnt need to. Just like I didnt need to try Shieldtech and Pyro for week to come to the conclusion that they are decent trees. But you still have point. However, I hardly doubt that every other PT out there, especially those that started in Beta, have not extensively played with the AP tree before they gave up on it.

 

From my perspective as a pyro, all the speed and escape tactics dont mean much. It is not that an AP is the only AC spec that has these. Sorc have a lot more survivability and if I am focused on one, they are not escaping, period.

 

Your WZ scores are good, but it just says that you are a good player, not that you are using the best spec. I am sure as a Pyro you would do alot better. I never run premades I often do over 450k dmg 9-10medals on average.

[darkrom]

Wish they'd just turn AP into something interesting and useful. Give them techstaffs and aoe debuffs. Renamed to tera kasi .....

[Tindomul]

Advanced Prototype is undervalued, period. The tree brings a lot of great elements to the table:

 

--20% damage reduction while stunned

--Hydraulic overrides

--Fabulous elemental and internal damage that completely negates armor (aside from rocket punch and rail shot)

--moderate self healing in clutch situations (kolto vents [7%] + kolto overload [15%])

--better sustained damage than Pyrotech because of superior heat management

--AP synergizes with the Combat Tech pvp set better than Pyrotech does

 

The lack of charge and no spammable snare means it can be hard to stay on people. But really, you just need to play smart and not get kited.

 

Grinding to battlemaster and beyond, I spent 90% of my time using Taugrim's Iron First build with moderate Pyrotech usage sprinkled in. Iron first is awesome and I prefer it to Carolina Parakeet because I find retractable blade far superior to incendiary missile (mainly because of damage/heat). I dont care for Pyrotech because it has the worst mobility and least defensive capabilities of any of the builds, granted it compensates by having the highest burst.

 

All in all, I love the Iron Fist build but am having a blast with deep Adv Proto. As a tank at heart, I love all the free rocket punches way more than rail shot procs and it is hard to argue against being able to ignore armor. Adv Proto eats up fotm merc healers.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tindomul

[Agooz]

Advanced Prototype is undervalued, period. The tree brings a lot of great elements to the table:

 

--20% damage reduction while stunned

--Hydraulic overrides

--Fabulous elemental and internal damage that completely negates armor (aside from rocket punch and rail shot)

--moderate self healing in clutch situations (kolto vents [7%] + kolto overload [15%])

--better sustained damage than Pyrotech because of superior heat management

--AP synergizes with the Combat Tech pvp set better than Pyrotech does

 

- Awesome, so you die in 12sec instead of my pyro in 10sec when focused. At least my pyro more likely took one out before dying.

- HO? sure it is nice. But for 25points and only 8sec and a 30sec cooldown? no way.

- Huh? you serious? no tree generates more elemental damage than Pyro.

- self healing? laughable. actually extremely laughable. In fact the very rare and brave souls that go AP dont even bother with it.

- Better sustained damage? where in the world are you getting this? Is that why 99% of dps PTs in raids go Pyro? Dont confused with easy heat management with better sustained damage.

- and you are correct, that is why Pyros use Eliminator set LOL

 

The lack of charge and no spammable snare means it can be hard to stay on people. But really, you just need to play smart and not get kited.

 

Grinding to battlemaster and beyond, I spent 90% of my time using Taugrim's Iron First build with moderate Pyrotech usage sprinkled in. Iron first is awesome and I prefer it to Carolina Parakeet because I find retractable blade far superior to incendiary missile (mainly because of damage/heat). I dont care for Pyrotech because it has the worst mobility and least defensive capabilities of any of the builds, granted it compensates by having the highest burst.

 

All in all, I love the Iron Fist build but am having a blast with deep Adv Proto. As a tank at heart, I love all the free rocket punches way more than rail shot procs and it is hard to argue against being able to ignore armor. Adv Proto eats up fotm merc healers.

 

You actually grinded and played beyond Battlemaster, and writing this sort of stuff?

 

Iron Fist?!!?!? DUH! Ok, this may not have been very clear in Taugrim's post, but the Iron Fist is NOT an AP spec. In fact it is more ST heavy than the parakeet build. So believe it or not you have been playing a tank all along.

 

What Hydraulic Overides are you cheering for when you dont even have it in your spec? You barely have 14points in AP. That's not even half way through the tree lol.

 

Retractable Blade better than IM? Well eventhough IM is rarely used by a Pyro, I'll still take a 30m dot that does elemental damage over a melee dot that does kenetic damage (which means about 30% of its damage can be absorbed)

 

I'll give you that on the merc healer, but that exclusively revolve around faster interrupts.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Agooz

[Tindomul]

I generally loathe engaging anyone in forum discussions because it is almost always an exercise in futility, but I am sick of lolumadbro ******s being jerks for no reason. I was simply trying to make a case for people to try out Adv Proto because it isnt as bad as everyone makes it out to be. As both Taugrim and Oozo have commented in their respective blogs/sites, Adv Proto doesnt do terribly well as a solo build but brings a lot to the table for group play.

 

All of my previous statements were strictly with regards to PvP. My apologies for not stating that in my original response.

 

- Awesome, so you die in 12sec instead of my pyro in 10sec when focused. At least my pyro more likely took one out before dying.

With the volume of stuns floating around in this game the damage reduction adds up quite a bit and makes your healers job easier.

 

- HO? sure it is nice. But for 25points and only 8sec and a 30sec cooldown? no way.

Hydraulic Overides is essential for this spec for various reasons. If you are going 31 points then you better have it. With grapple as your only gap closer (that you may want to save for a clutch pull on someone capping a point or running the ball in huttball) and very limited ranged attacks, HO gives you an extra boost when you need it. It can also be used very effectively as a defensive cooldown if you want to hold ground somewhere that a sorc/jugg/sniper/merc might try to knock you off. It can be helpful to reach that health boost or expertise power up, close ground to help out a healer, or simply stop someone from kiting you.

 

- Huh? you serious? no tree generates more elemental damage than Pyro.

Where is the elemental damage? Thermal Detonator = kinetic, Rail shot = weapon damage, rocket punch = kinetic. I am not going to count flame burst, flame sweep, etc because they are available to all builds. Incendiary missile (which you even said is "rarely used") and combustable gas dot are elemental, true. That gives you two abilities unique to the Pryo tree while your main attacks are all susceptible to armor. Adv Proto has an improved flame thrower, immolate, and ret blade (since I was talking about elemental and internal due to their ability to ignore armor). That gives AP three elemental/internal abilities that are used more and hit harder with synergy from HEGC. Before you attack flamethrower as horrible and "only used by baddies", try using it intelligently with the 50% buff on groups of people caught in AoE stuns. My flamethrower ticks for 1200-2500. WIth 5 stacks of the buff I can pump a lot of unmitigatable damage into an individual or a group. Think of it as another, and better, death from above that just also happens to be harder to use well.

 

- self healing? laughable. actually extremely laughable. In fact the very rare and brace souls that go AP dont even bother with it.

Yep, so laughable that the 22% healing plus a single hot from a healer or my medpac saved my behind more times than I can count in just a couple nights of PvPing. Or the times that those extra HoT ticks meant I could get to the warzone health boost and turn around to kill the guy chasing me. You arent going to burst people down in AP like you can in Pyro and you dont have as much survivability as Iron Fist so you need to play the longer game and outlast the other while pumping out the damage.

 

- Better sustained damage? where in the world are you getting this? Is that why 99% of dps PTs in raids go Pyro? Dont confused with easy heat management with better sustained damage.

Yes. I manage much better sustained damage with AP than Pyro. Healers turn and run away from the sustained damage output I have with AP. As Pyro they would get low and heal back up before I could finish them. Just my experiences here. Also, this was referring to PvP, not PvE. I tank in PvE and am not going to talk about PvE DPS.

 

- and you are correct, that is why Pyros use Eliminator set LOL

Yes. "LOL". What is your point other than to make yourself feel better? Personally, I would prefer to stick with my Combat Tech set bonuses as both of them synergize well with either a ST or an AP build of any sort. Sorry for not wanting to grind a second set of BM to play a spec I dont really care for that happens to also be designed for a different advanced class.

 

You actually grinded and played beyond Battlemaster, and writing this sort of stuff?

Yes, I did. Part of putting that many hours into grinding battlemaster (the old school way) is being open to other ideas and trying things out, not just bending your knee to whatever people seem to have put up on the forums. One would go insane playing the same spec for that many hours without mixing it up.

 

Iron Fist?!!?!? DUH! Ok, this may not have been very clear in Taugrim's post, but the Iron Fist is NOT an AP spec. In fact it is more ST heavy than the parakeet build. So believe it or not you have been playing a tank all along.

I do not believe I ever claimed that Iron Fist was an AP guild, or that Carolina Parakeet was an AP build, or anything even remotely close. Be realistic and dont resort to hyperbole and misinformation to try and make a point. I was simply adding context and perspective for my opinion on how Adv Proto plays. I guess they dont teach reading comprehension anymore.

 

What Hydraulic Overides are you cheering for when you dont even have it in your spec? You barely have 14points in AP. That's not even half way through the tree lol.

I dont even know what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to point out that an Iron Fist build doesnt have hydraulic overrides? That is pretty obvious to anyone who has looked at the skill tree.

 

Retractable Blade better than IM? Well eventhough IM is rarely used by a Pyro, I'll still take a 30m dot that does elemental damage over a melee dot that does kenetic damage (which means about 30% of its damage can be absorbed)

Right, one of the main elemental damage attacks for Pyro is "rarely used", thus contradciting your earlier statement about Pyro having more elemental damage. Even if it did have more elemental damage, which it doesnt, what does it matter if you arent even using it?

 

------

 

Agooz, I highly doubt that anything here is going to persuade you to reconsider your opinion. I dont plan on responding further to any inflammatory posts by you so feel free to have the last word if it makes you feel better.

 

To any other readers, I strongly suggest being open minded and giving alternative specs the old college try. Play with them for a few days or a week. Play solo, play in a group, use them in warzones and open world pvp (if you can find it) before passing judgement. Just because the "forums" say something sucks doesnt mean it sucks. The Adv Proto build has some pretty amazing strengths and, if it fits your playstyle, can be a lot of fun to play.

[Agooz]

I generally loathe engaging anyone in forum discussions because it is almost always an exercise in futility, but I am sick of lolumadbro ******s being jerks for no reason. I was simply trying to make a case for people to try out Adv Proto because it isnt as bad as everyone makes it out to be. As both Taugrim and Oozo have commented in their respective blogs/sites, Adv Proto doesnt do terribly well as a solo build but brings a lot to the table for group play.

 

All of my previous statements were strictly with regards to PvP. My apologies for not stating that in my original response.

 

With the volume of stuns floating around in this game the damage reduction adds up quite a bit and makes your healers job easier.

 

Hydraulic Overides is essential for this spec for various reasons. If you are going 31 points then you better have it. With grapple as your only gap closer (that you may want to save for a clutch pull on someone capping a point or running the ball in huttball) and very limited ranged attacks, HO gives you an extra boost when you need it. It can also be used very effectively as a defensive cooldown if you want to hold ground somewhere that a sorc/jugg/sniper/merc might try to knock you off. It can be helpful to reach that health boost or expertise power up, close ground to help out a healer, or simply stop someone from kiting you.

 

Where is the elemental damage? Thermal Detonator = kinetic, Rail shot = weapon damage, rocket punch = kinetic. I am not going to count flame burst, flame sweep, etc because they are available to all builds. Incendiary missile (which you even said is "rarely used") and combustable gas dot are elemental, true. That gives you two abilities unique to the Pryo tree while your main attacks are all susceptible to armor. Adv Proto has an improved flame thrower, immolate, and ret blade (since I was talking about elemental and internal due to their ability to ignore armor). That gives AP three elemental/internal abilities that are used more and hit harder with synergy from HEGC. Before you attack flamethrower as horrible and "only used by baddies", try using it intelligently with the 50% buff on groups of people caught in AoE stuns. My flamethrower ticks for 1200-2500. WIth 5 stacks of the buff I can pump a lot of unmitigatable damage into an individual or a group. Think of it as another, and better, death from above that just also happens to be harder to use well.

 

Yep, so laughable that the 22% healing plus a single hot from a healer or my medpac saved my behind more times than I can count in just a couple nights of PvPing. Or the times that those extra HoT ticks meant I could get to the warzone health boost and turn around to kill the guy chasing me. You arent going to burst people down in AP like you can in Pyro and you dont have as much survivability as Iron Fist so you need to play the longer game and outlast the other while pumping out the damage.

 

Yes. I manage much better sustained damage with AP than Pyro. Healers turn and run away from the sustained damage output I have with AP. As Pyro they would get low and heal back up before I could finish them. Just my experiences here. Also, this was referring to PvP, not PvE. I tank in PvE and am not going to talk about PvE DPS.

 

Yes. "LOL". What is your point other than to make yourself feel better? Personally, I would prefer to stick with my Combat Tech set bonuses as both of them synergize well with either a ST or an AP build of any sort. Sorry for not wanting to grind a second set of BM to play a spec I dont really care for that happens to also be designed for a different advanced class.

 

Yes, I did. Part of putting that many hours into grinding battlemaster (the old school way) is being open to other ideas and trying things out, not just bending your knee to whatever people seem to have put up on the forums. One would go insane playing the same spec for that many hours without mixing it up.

 

I do not believe I ever claimed that Iron Fist was an AP guild, or that Carolina Parakeet was an AP build, or anything even remotely close. Be realistic and dont resort to hyperbole and misinformation to try and make a point. I was simply adding context and perspective for my opinion on how Adv Proto plays. I guess they dont teach reading comprehension anymore.

 

I dont even know what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to point out that an Iron Fist build doesnt have hydraulic overrides? That is pretty obvious to anyone who has looked at the skill tree.

 

Right, one of the main elemental damage attacks for Pyro is "rarely used", thus contradciting your earlier statement about Pyro having more elemental damage. Even if it did have more elemental damage, which it doesnt, what does it matter if you arent even using it?

 

------

 

Agooz, I highly doubt that anything here is going to persuade you to reconsider your opinion. I dont plan on responding further to any inflammatory posts by you so feel free to have the last word if it makes you feel better.

 

To any other readers, I strongly suggest being open minded and giving alternative specs the old college try. Play with them for a few days or a week. Play solo, play in a group, use them in warzones and open world pvp (if you can find it) before passing judgement. Just because the "forums" say something sucks doesnt mean it sucks. The Adv Proto build has some pretty amazing strengths and, if it fits your playstyle, can be a lot of fun to play.

 

I am not going to waste my time, and everyone else to comment on AGAIN completely false arguments on pretty much every point you make. I am guessing that maybe 95% of dps PTs are pyros, so they dont need me to state the obvious.

And no, your attempts are futile. Your biggest mistake is not that you have a distorted perspective about the 2 trees, is that you assume you are one of the rare few who actually gave the AP tree a try and found great merit in it.

What you do not understand, that starting with Beta, everyone who rolled a PT was extremely excited about the AP tree. That's what everyone was talking about. Some quickly realized that it is inferior to the Pyro tree and switched, others insisted on the L2P concept and stuck with it for a while longer, then they said screw it.

Seriously my friend, there is really no advantage to using the tree. It is very obvious it is not working as intended. Hec it is suppose to be our PVP tree for god's sake. It is broken. It needs a major overhaul.

And NO, I didnt misunderstood you and thought you meant PvE. Every statement I made is more so for PvP then PvE actually. When a Pyro can pug a WZ in t2 gear, get 450k+ dmg, 11+ medals, 45+ kills, there is no way you can convince me or anyone else that a PT can do better or even close to that as an AP.

I said it before, and I will say it again. All that the AP tree gives you is some cute bells and whistles.

I am sorry for offending you with my tone.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Agooz

[Varicite]

To any other readers, I strongly suggest being open minded and giving alternative specs the old college try. Play with them for a few days or a week. Play solo, play in a group, use them in warzones and open world pvp (if you can find it) before passing judgement. Just because the "forums" say something sucks doesnt mean it sucks. The Adv Proto build has some pretty amazing strengths and, if it fits your playstyle, can be a lot of fun to play.

 

As someone who has played AP, AP/Pyro Hybrid, TD Pyro, and now currently a deep Pyro (2/12/26) build, I just thought I would point out a few things in your post. Not trying to criticize, but there are some fundamental flaws in your understanding of both specs.

 

With the volume of stuns floating around in this game the damage reduction adds up quite a bit and makes your healers job easier.

 

I just feel the need to point out that Deep/Full Pyro PvP builds have access to Energy Rebounder, which usually will lower the cd of Energy Shield to ~1 min. This is far more damage mitigated than the 20% from stuns.

 

Where is the elemental damage? Thermal Detonator = kinetic, Rail shot = weapon damage, rocket punch = kinetic. I am not going to count flame burst, flame sweep, etc because they are available to all builds. Incendiary missile (which you even said is "rarely used") and combustable gas dot are elemental, true. That gives you two abilities unique to the Pryo tree while your main attacks are all susceptible to armor. Adv Proto has an improved flame thrower, immolate, and ret blade (since I was talking about elemental and internal due to their ability to ignore armor). That gives AP three elemental/internal abilities that are used more and hit harder with synergy from HEGC. Before you attack flamethrower as horrible and "only used by baddies", try using it intelligently with the 50% buff on groups of people caught in AoE stuns. My flamethrower ticks for 1200-2500. WIth 5 stacks of the buff I can pump a lot of unmitigatable damage into an individual or a group. Think of it as another, and better, death from above that just also happens to be harder to use well.

 

You cannot simply discount Flame Burst, as it is Pyro's main attack, both proc'ing CGC automatically as well as applying a 50% snare and having a 30% chance to reset Rail Shot. It hits harder than AP's Flame Burst, since Pyro builds can also take every point in AP that boosts Flame Burst's damage, but Pyro's Flame Burst will consistently hit 600-1k harder simply because of the CGC dot proc'ing every single time you use the ability. You also need to take into account that CGC is ticking constantly, buffed by both AP and Pyro trees and you can stack IM on top of it if you can manage the heat.

 

Flamethrower, in contrast, sees FAR less use per WZ than Flame Burst. The damage gained from FT does not even compare to the damage lost every single time you Flame Burst using HEGC.

 

Yep, so laughable that the 22% healing plus a single hot from a healer or my medpac saved my behind more times than I can count in just a couple nights of PvPing. Or the times that those extra HoT ticks meant I could get to the warzone health boost and turn around to kill the guy chasing me. You arent going to burst people down in AP like you can in Pyro and you dont have as much survivability as Iron Fist so you need to play the longer game and outlast the other while pumping out the damage.

 

I'm sorry to flat out contradict you here, but the 7% heal on Vent Heat is just barely above terrible. It CAN be useful, but it's so negligible that most people would not consider it worth a talent point.

 

I should also point out that a deep Pyro build can simply spec into Automated Defenses if they wish (I don't feel it's worth it, personally) and get a lower cd on Kolto Overload, pretty much countering the Kolto Vents talent.

 

Yes. I manage much better sustained damage with AP than Pyro. Healers turn and run away from the sustained damage output I have with AP. As Pyro they would get low and heal back up before I could finish them. Just my experiences here. Also, this was referring to PvP, not PvE. I tank in PvE and am not going to talk about PvE DPS.

 

Sustained damage does not kill healers. Maybe I need to repeat that: SUSTAINED DAMAGE DOES NOT KILL HEALERS.

 

What kills healers is a good combination of high damage and interrupts/stuns. Arguably, AP does have a better way of it because of Hitman, but more and more people are picking this up in a deep Pyro build. I do this myself. I guarantee I will kill a healer looooong before any full AP PT by combining heavy Rail Shots and elemental damage w/ 6 second interrupts.

 

Yes. "LOL". What is your point other than to make yourself feel better? Personally, I would prefer to stick with my Combat Tech set bonuses as both of them synergize well with either a ST or an AP build of any sort. Sorry for not wanting to grind a second set of BM to play a spec I dont really care for that happens to also be designed for a different advanced class.

 

This doesn't really have anything to do w/ anything. You got CT set because it fit your build. Pyros get the Eliminator set because it fits their build. I believe he was saying that using the Combat Tech set as any sort of reasoning for playing one build over another is simply your personal reasoning, and not an actual reason to go AP over Pyro. There are different sets for different builds.

Right, one of the main elemental damage attacks for Pyro is "rarely used", thus contradciting your earlier statement about Pyro having more elemental damage. Even if it did have more elemental damage, which it doesnt, what does it matter if you arent even using it?

 

Actually, you are flat out wrong here, as I have tested both DoTs. Incendiary Missile outclasses Retractable Blade by a LOT per tick. It adds up to more damage overall than RB, even including RB's initial hit. Especially since RB's initial hit is kinetic damage and fully mitigated by armor, and there are very few talents boosting the internal damage portion.

 

Pyro does, in fact, put out more elemental damage than AP due to the fact that Pyro is proc'ing CGC every time they use Flame Burst, and proc'ing CGC AGAIN every time they Rail Shot. Over time, this will outclass buffed Flamethrowers because you simply cannot use FT whenever you like; it has a cd, and it's a melee range channel begging to be interrupted.

 

 

With all that said, what AP does bring to the table is Hydraulic Overrides, which is fun, but unnecessary and certainly not enough of a reason to give up the top of the Pyro or ST trees. All of the good stuff can be taken by any build and are not exclusive to AP at all.

 

The stuff that IS exclusive to AP is lackluster at best, and that's what needs to be addressed.

[Tindomul]

Thank you for the post Varicite. You make plenty of great points and I wont discount them. I would also like to applaud you for remaining civil in your argumentation without having to resort to hyperbole or being derogatory to someone that disagrees with you.

 

To be honest, I had forgotten to include the CGC proc with the spammed Flame Burst in Pryo. That does add up to quite a lot of extra damage. Regarding the heals, 7% is lackluster unless it is combined. I never use just kolto overload or the vent heat heal, they are always combined and often with a medpac. Only in combination do they serve a useful purpose.

 

I guess I should make one further comment about this whole discussion. I never said AP was better than Pryo, only that AP is undervalued. I still think it brings a lot to the table. Perhaps my perspective is skewed because I use Iron First as a baseline for PvP performance since I have spent the majority of my time PvPing with that spec (or something close to it). From my experiences, AP puts a lot of pressure (especially compared to Iron Fist) that never lets up on whoever you are attacking (be it a healer, tank, or damage dealer) due to all the internal and elemental damage and superior heat management.

 

I also find Pyrotech to be less fun and rather faceroll-esque, although nothing compared to tracer missile spamming. To a certain degree, Pyro is too easy and gets boring. Some of the other specs provide more of a challenge to play well.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tindomul

[Varicite]

Thank you for the post Varicite. You make plenty of great points and I wont discount them. I would also like to applaud you for remaining civil in your argumentation without having to resort to hyperbole or being derogatory to someone that disagrees with you.

 

To be honest, I had forgotten to include the CGC proc with the spammed Flame Burst in Pryo. That does add up to quite a lot of extra damage. Regarding the heals, 7% is lackluster unless it is combined. I never use just kolto overload or the vent heat heal, they are always combined and often with a medpac. Only in combination do they serve a useful purpose.

 

I guess I should make one further comment about this whole discussion. I never said AP was better than Pryo, only that AP is undervalued. I still think it brings a lot to the table. Perhaps my perspective is skewed because I use Iron First as a baseline for PvP performance since I have spent the majority of my time PvPing with that spec (or something close to it). From my experiences, AP puts a lot of pressure (especially compared to Iron Fist) that never lets up on whoever you are attacking (be it a healer, tank, or damage dealer) due to all the internal and elemental damage and superior heat management.

 

I also find Pyrotech to be less fun and rather faceroll-esque, although nothing compared to tracer missile spamming. To a certain degree, Pyro is too easy and gets boring. Some of the other specs provide more of a challenge to play well.

 

I'll definitely agree that when I play deep Pyro, it feels like there are buttons missing to push.

 

However, there's a certain beauty to simplicity, and I think there's enough wiggle-room w/ positioning, cd's, CC, grapple, etc to still show a modicum of skill even w/ a simpler playstle.

 

Like I said, I wasn't trying to criticize, just wanted to point out some differences I'd noticed while playing both specs.

[Agooz]

Thank you for the post Varicite. You make plenty of great points and I wont discount them. I would also like to applaud you for remaining civil in your argumentation without having to resort to hyperbole or being derogatory to someone that disagrees with you.

 

To be honest, I had forgotten to include the CGC proc with the spammed Flame Burst in Pryo. That does add up to quite a lot of extra damage. Regarding the heals, 7% is lackluster unless it is combined. I never use just kolto overload or the vent heat heal, they are always combined and often with a medpac. Only in combination do they serve a useful purpose.

 

I guess I should make one further comment about this whole discussion. I never said AP was better than Pryo, only that AP is undervalued. I still think it brings a lot to the table. Perhaps my perspective is skewed because I use Iron First as a baseline for PvP performance since I have spent the majority of my time PvPing with that spec (or something close to it). From my experiences, AP puts a lot of pressure (especially compared to Iron Fist) that never lets up on whoever you are attacking (be it a healer, tank, or damage dealer) due to all the internal and elemental damage and superior heat management.

 

I also find Pyrotech to be less fun and rather faceroll-esque, although nothing compared to tracer missile spamming. To a certain degree, Pyro is too easy and gets boring. Some of the other specs provide more of a challenge to play well.

 

So now you're lying and saying that I resorted to Hyperbole and derogatory comments? Can you please quote me, where 1) I exaggerated in my comments, 2) I used derogatory words?

 

I generally loathe engaging anyone in forum discussions because it is almost always an exercise in futility, but I am sick of lolumadbro ******s being jerks for no reason.

 

^^

Or were you referring to yourself?

So my few LOLs offended you so much? Believe me they were very genuine. Especially when you make it a point that you are a Battlemaster as if that qualifies you to make completely false and exaggerated comments about a tree that you yourself just confessed you have not used for the vast majority of your grinding.

 

I promise you, the next time I reply to your post I will restrain myself and use less LOLs, as long as you also promise try not to make me laugh.

[tuxiewuxie]

just gonna be brief here about pvp, ex proto here 10-50, even got champ combat tech to spec around my proto, now im a pyro with bm/champ eliminator and havent really changed my playstyle at all besides obviously being careful with heat and extra ranged skills but yeah doing way more dmg and can put some hurt on the bms that i couldnt hurt as a proto with free dps (cgc proc) and free RS. all i can say is for my playstyle pyro dps/snare > ap mobility/survivability. we still have our 2 stuns, grapple and interrupt so its not like we lose out too much.

[LoKiei]

AP appears to suck, it has no snare(even though AP needs to use more melee style attacks), its burst run is not very good(and stuns still lock you), it really has no better heat management them pyro(the vent heat skill isnt very good) and its damage is significantly less.

 

I cant really think of any way in which AP is better then Pyro.

[Theology]

AP is a joke, pray for a redesign with 1.2

[DinesenDK]

I personally like the Advanced Prototype tree myself. I love the heat management, i love hydraulic overrides every 30 sec in pvp it really is amazing.

 

Lets be honest now lol. In pvp terms the tree seriously lacks compared to pyrotech. The dps that pyrotech puts out is absolutely insane coupled with the defensive cooldowns it has makes pyrotech a more logical choice for pvp dps. Heck even shield tech provides more survivability and way more utility compared to Advanced Prototype.

 

Now im not asking for a complete overhaul to Advanced prototype i just feel it needs one small tweak to make the tree shine. That tweak is a SNARE. If retractable blade applied a 50% movement reduction it would really put some synergy to the tree. With the 15% movement speed buff and the 30% speed boost with hydraulic overrides the snare would make them stand out even more. It would also help prototype flamethrower so much if your opponent was snared and couldnt just simply walk out of it which would also raise your overall damage output because you would actually land it more and use it more without having to rely on your stun.

 

I was a fan of the tree myself, but the low survivability and lack of damage as you mention, did I ended up with Pyro - Which I still enjoy alot.

 

However... Patch 1.2 notes for Advanced Prototype

 

Charged Gauntlets now triggers from damage dealt such that the bleed caused by Retractable Blade can trigger the buff. It now has a visual effect.

Kolto Vents has been replaced by Hamstring, which causes Retractable Blade to slow the target by 30% for 6 seconds.

Wish granted.

 

It is a step in the right direction, I'm sure the dps will go up slightly now it will be eaiser to land those stacked Flamethrower hits. I'm still unsure about the suvivabillity.

 

Would have loved to see Power Armor get a boost to help us survive - make it a Tier 4 or higher and it would still be ok with me.

 

When this is said I'm pretty sure I will test it out when it goes live - I would like to see it work since I'm a fan of Retractable Blade and Immolate (Boooooom!).

 

What say you?

Edited March 17, 2012 by DinesenDK