Would You Consider This Overpowered? (Marksman)

[Ulmius]

As many people know, a marksman is pretty much worthless vs tank npcs and players because all our attacks are effected by evades and shields. So how about if they had a talent in the MM tree that turned snipe into a tech attack. That way when fighting tank enemies we would have an ability that we can somewhat rely on and know it won't be evaded or shielded. It wouldn't make a huge difference, but it would help.

 

I made a post about it on the class forums and you can see my reasoning with it if you are interested. It didn't get many hits so I figured I'd talk about it in the sniper forums.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=349168

[Baruton]

IMO Sniper is OK with the current ability if you know how to play it.

Every class wants to be able to 1v1 other classes, which is not possible and doesn't make sense.

[jaakkeli]

IMO Sniper is OK with the current ability if you know how to play it.

Every class wants to be able to 1v1 other classes, which is not possible and doesn't make sense.

 

Which is of course rubbish since Sniper is the only class that has this issue of being absolutely horribly gimped against tanks. Everybody does somewhat less damage against tanks but a Marksman Sniper is the only one that becomes practically useless against them.

 

People should understand that queuing as a MM Sniper is not much better than botting or afking in the warzone. You're just being a drag to the team with your uselessly gimped spec. Please do not join warzones as a Marksman Sniper.

[Baruton]

Which is of course rubbish since Sniper is the only class that has this issue of being absolutely horribly gimped against tanks. Everybody does somewhat less damage against tanks but a Marksman Sniper is the only one that becomes practically useless against them.

 

People should understand that queuing as a MM Sniper is not much better than botting or afking in the warzone. You're just being a drag to the team with your uselessly gimped spec. Please do not join warzones as a Marksman Sniper.

 

 

MM is actually pretty decent for PvE, but lack of mobility always kill em in WZ.

Sniper can't take down tank class easily is reasonable.

WZ is not only about damage, or being able to take down someone, range damage interrupting opposite team to interact with bomb/turrets are important too.

 

I prefer Leth/Eng spec over MM for PvP, and I am having lots of fun (and MVP votes) in WZs, maybe I enjoying playing an underrated/gimp class

[finansjapp]

He was talking about marksman. You dont play it, so why talk about fine sniper when you play lethality?

 

I dont think it will be overpowered. A MM sniper should be able to take out anyone from afar. Its squishy and not very mobile. Its huge disadvantage should give some clear advantages.

[Tusken]

As primarily a PvP MM sniper who is almost always in the top 3 in damage and kills, if not the top spot, tanks are not overly difficult. You have to use entrench, armor debuf, interrupts, and other cooldowns (don’t forget shield probe) and a 1v1 with a tank is completely feasible.

 

Don’t like using your cooldowns? Then avoid these confrontations because you will lose if you just want mash 1 to 3 buttons.

 

I wouldn’t trade being a MM sniper for anything.

[Seriasx]

I still play my mm sniper, but I also rolled a Vanguard which is pretty much same overall dmg but a ******** more utility/survivability.

 

I'm not going to say snipers suck or they need a boost, all I'm saying is that I can do the same dmg my dps sniper does as a tank...

[finansjapp]

What I have noticed now is that more and more groups consist of tanks and healers. Its getting very difficult to cope, as you dont have longer range than the healers, and the tanks have really good gap closers.

 

I mean a sniper should at least have the longest range.

 

Sure you do A LOT of damage in such setups, but you are almost unuseful as you wont break any bones. As it is now Im going back to my other characters as weell. Marksman sniper is not possible anymore in equal play. You have some classes that totally dominate the playfield. Lucky for me I have two of them!

Edited March 14, 2012 by finansjapp

[vimm]

People need to stop calling marksman useless in PvP just because they're no good at it.

[finansjapp]

Who have said it is useless? It is becoming extremely difficult to play compared to other classes. I still love it, but its getting to a point where its less and less fun.

[Avlos]

Why is everyone so focused on needing to kill tanks?

 

We are a ranged DPS class capable of unparallelled burst damage. It's our job to focus fire lightly armored opponents, such as healers and quickly take them out of the fight. We should not be targeting tanks. Tanks are saved for last.

 

I thought this was common knowledge:

 

Healers > Light Armour RDPS > Medium Armour M/RDPS > Heavy Armour targets.

 

By the time you get around to targeting the tank, your team should be focus firing them. If you happen to get caught in the open by a tank, run. Not much else you can do - they are basically the class designed for countering us, we're not going to win 100% of the time, deal with it.

[jaakkeli]

Why is everyone so focused on needing to kill tanks?

 

We are a ranged DPS class capable of unparallelled burst damage. It's our job to focus fire lightly armored opponents, such as healers

 

But then, we can just take a Pyro PT who is *excellent* at attacking healers and at the same time excellent at killing tanks.

 

There is no room in a premade for someone who's "job is to focus fire lightly armored opponents" when you can simply take any of the numerous characters who can focus and burst on *anything in the game*, including healers. Being good at bursting sages and sorcs is worthless when there are plenty of specs in the game that can burst down *anything*, including tanks.

 

Imagine if there was a healer class that could heal only light armored characters. They would be no better at it than other healing classes and the other healing classes could just heal anyone. I'm sure someone would go "well it's our job to heal the light armored characters!" but really, no one would want that class in PvP when you can just take the classes that can heal anyone.

 

In a rated premade there won't be any spots for "damage against light armored types", there will be just spots for "damage", and Marksman Snipers just can't fill that role while more or less every spec in the game can. Some better than others but MM is the only spec that's completely gimped against one type of opponents (and often the most critical type).

 

Healers > Light Armour RDPS > Medium Armour M/RDPS > Heavy Armour targets.

 

Cute. But even if you blow away all the escort, a tank that's already gone some way towards scoring is a huge danger that needs to be blown away fast. MM Snipers do bad damage to tanks and most likely no damage at all if they have deflection cooldowns up.

 

Tanks are what everyone is going to use for the roles where you need someone to just survive for long. In a pug, less of an issue, but in a premade they'll make sure the tank is carrying the ball. The ability to kill tanks is *more* important than killing DPS or even healers since, of course, tanks will be used exactly for those tasks where the opponent wants to make it difficult for you to kill the target.

 

A damage dealer who is specifically extraordinarily gimped against tanks is going to be extraordinarily worthless.

[CTifer]

What I have noticed now is that more and more groups consist of tanks and healers. Its getting very difficult to cope, as you dont have longer range than the healers, and the tanks have really good gap closers.

 

I mean a sniper should at least have the longest range.

 

I thought we had 35m range on several of our sniper-ish attacks. 30m on all others...

[finansjapp]

Why is everyone so focused on needing to kill tanks?

 

We are a ranged DPS class capable of unparallelled burst damage. It's our job to focus fire lightly armored opponents, such as healers and quickly take them out of the fight. We should not be targeting tanks. Tanks are saved for last.

 

This is fine when you can get to the healers. As said before are MM sniper useless against a group made up of tanks and healers. You can not get to the healers as they stand out of range, and when you get into range you face a horde of heavy armour.

 

To take down the heavy armour first is impossible. The healers outheal. As such you need someone who do good dps against tanks, and that is not sniper. As said by someone else before me. There is nothing a sniper can do that others cant. In addition they can do so much more. As such there is no reason to bring a sniper in a pvp group.

 

You see the trend in premades also now. More and more go for the tank setup with the occational well equipped scoundrel or operative.

[finansjapp]

I thought we had 35m range on several of our sniper-ish attacks. 30m on all others...

 

Yes. Same as my sorcerer.

[Alkei]

It would be nice to replace Rapid Fire by such talent. Current RF is crap for 31 points. Sniper Volley is also a good choice since it is completely useless atm.

[Shadowsdarth]

Which is of course rubbish since Sniper is the only class that has this issue of being absolutely horribly gimped against tanks. Everybody does somewhat less damage against tanks but a Marksman Sniper is the only one that becomes practically useless against them.

 

People should understand that queuing as a MM Sniper is not much better than botting or afking in the warzone. You're just being a drag to the team with your uselessly gimped spec. Please do not join warzones as a Marksman Sniper.

 

I do every day....and it's all about how you play. I'm sorry you most likely were not good at PvP as MM.

[ButterStrawKid]

when rated WZs come out and each group has tanks running the ball like unstoppable juggernauts, good luck trying to benefit your team in anyway as a MM sniper with your "well our job is to focus light armor targets" excuse

[nikthebeast]

Cute. But even if you blow away all the escort, a tank that's already gone some way towards scoring is a huge danger that needs to be blown away fast. MM Snipers do bad damage to tanks and most likely no damage at all if they have deflection cooldowns up.

 

Tanks are what everyone is going to use for the roles where you need someone to just survive for long. In a pug, less of an issue, but in a premade they'll make sure the tank is carrying the ball. The ability to kill tanks is *more* important than killing DPS or even healers since, of course, tanks will be used exactly for those tasks where the opponent wants to make it difficult for you to kill the target.

 

The whole point is to destroy the healers so the rest can take care of the tank without the tank laughing to himself as you try to kill it with a constant and uninterrupted stream of heals keeping him up. Indeed, generally playing a proactive game.

 

Seriously, what you're describing is "Pug panic mode" when the tank is about to score and everyone gets tunnelvision.

 

We also have legshot when over fire, debilitate/cover pulse if your close. And of course the almighty flashbang(this is also an offencive tool if used as people cross fire).

 

So yeah, you need to get to know the sniper-class better. You're trying to make into something it is not and at the same time spewing irrelevant misinformation about a class you don't understand.

 

Looking forwards to proving all the so-called "Pro-pvpers" who think they know exactly what works and what does not wrong. =)

Edited March 15, 2012 by nikthebeast

[vimm]

I do every day....and it's all about how you play. I'm sorry you most likely were not good at PvP as MM.

 

Yes indeed.

[Ermonican]

Lets say 45m range just outside of longest attack range? Anyone? Buler?

[Forswore]

As a Immortal Juggernaut, I would find that Overpowered. From my experience going against Marksmen and Sharpshooters in Warzones they are sometimes easy to go against and other times they are just so damn annoying. The main reason I would go after one is that they are not attacking me and killing one of my teammates (go figure that "attack everything but the tank" advice makes the tank attack you). One of two things happen here.

 

#1 The MM or SS ignores me till after I get to them and take out a good amount of their health. Want to guess how this ends?

 

#2 They see me coming and start attacking me. After this I go back to what I was doing unless they go back to attacking the rest of my team and then I have to go after them again. Going after them again results in the long walk towards them as they take out a nice chuck of my health getting to them, or I have to burn a CD, after which I get stunned and they run further away and back into cover. Yeah this second outcome is a load of fun for me. Mind you this is like 20 seconds trying to just tank one person and u are getting me away from the center of action and away from heals or heals has to go to the center of action to heal me.

 

As for the problem of you guys going 1v1, why are you by yourself in a Warzone? If your lucky you might run into an enemy player by their self but those are normally a scavenge kill on someone who just got out of a fight.

[xdvesper]

highest damage done every warzone as marksman spec says you're wrong.

[jaakkeli]

The whole point is to destroy the healers so the rest can take care of the tank

 

Again. Let's say I'm recruiting for a rated warzone guild. What can you do?

 

Mr Marksman says "I can kill the healers and then someone else can kill the tank"

 

Mr Lethality says "I can kill the healers in case they can't dispel and then kill the tank"

 

Mr Pyro says "I can kill the healers and then kill the tank"

 

Mr Annihilation "I can kill the healers and then kill the tank"

 

Alright, Mr Pyro, Mr Anni, you two are in. Mr Marksman, you can only bring damage and you can barely damage ball carriers and node defenders? Are you joking? Reroll and then we can get a spot for you.

 

Seriously, what you're describing is "Pug panic mode" when the tank is about to score and everyone gets tunnelvision.

 

Will happen plenty of time in a premade vs premade: a premade will tend to be good about passing the ball to their tanks. It will take you a good amount of time to peel off the healers and the odds are good that you need to pre-emptively take down another tank that's trying to move for a pass. Once you get the ball to a tank, he will most likely get it past the first fire and then you need some serious focus fire power to stop him from scoring if he still has cooldowns up.

 

And if he still has cooldowns up, the MM Sniper will be utterly useless. Any damage dealer that wants to play high rated needs to offer ability to burst healers and ability to damage past tank defenses. A spec that can only kill healers but not tanks is just not going to get anywhere close to high rated teams as long as there are classes that have no real trouble killing anything.

 

I do like playing the Sniper the most but as it is, a Sniper is not going to get anywhere near high rated play unless 1.2 gives Marksman more defense-bypassing power or gives Lethality dispel protection.

 

We also have legshot when over fire,

 

Deflectable.

[vimm]

Again. Let's say I'm recruiting for a rated warzone guild. What can you do?

 

Mr Marksman says "I can kill the healers and then someone else can kill the tank"

 

Mr Lethality says "I can kill the healers in case they can't dispel and then kill the tank"

 

Mr Pyro says "I can kill the healers and then kill the tank"

 

Mr Annihilation "I can kill the healers and then kill the tank"

 

Alright, Mr Pyro, Mr Anni, you two are in. Mr Marksman, you can only bring damage and you can barely damage ball carriers and node defenders? Are you joking? Reroll and then we can get a spot for you.

 

 

 

Will happen plenty of time in a premade vs premade: a premade will tend to be good about passing the ball to their tanks. It will take you a good amount of time to peel off the healers and the odds are good that you need to pre-emptively take down another tank that's trying to move for a pass. Once you get the ball to a tank, he will most likely get it past the first fire and then you need some serious focus fire power to stop him from scoring if he still has cooldowns up.

 

And if he still has cooldowns up, the MM Sniper will be utterly useless. Any damage dealer that wants to play high rated needs to offer ability to burst healers and ability to damage past tank defenses. A spec that can only kill healers but not tanks is just not going to get anywhere close to high rated teams as long as there are classes that have no real trouble killing anything.

 

I do like playing the Sniper the most but as it is, a Sniper is not going to get anywhere near high rated play unless 1.2 gives Marksman more defense-bypassing power or gives Lethality dispel protection.

 

 

 

Deflectable.

 

Leg Shot will still root though.