JustTed Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 i could analyze my dps now by writing down all my dmg and sticking it into a calculator, but i wont cuz that's inconvenient. No, that would be absurd. Opening a text document with a tool and pushing a button? Simple. But then you can't wave your damage in my face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Yeah, that was my point, I wasn't contradicting myself at all, you're just trying to act like I'm wrong. I'm completely right, and regardless of whether or not we get real-time logs for all party/op members, people are still going to get kicked, their feelings are still going to get hurt, and there's going to be an even bigger divide in the community. Not having logs isn't going to save anyone from criticism at all, it's just like outlawing drugs; people will still do them. Basically, no group logs or not, people are going to get kicked, their feelings are going to get hurt, and bioware can't stop judgement between players. I can't say I agree with how seriously some people take poor performance, but it happens. I wouldn't indiscriminately kick players because they under perform in one fight, but if they do it 6 times in a row and continue to cause wipes, they're looking for a new raid group. No one here can say that they wouldn't do the same, truthfully. No a lot of them have made it clear they would automatically kicked them immediately. Some have even gone to the point when it was brought up to help them, that the would not help them in the operations if they were new to the game. They have stated go read the information, ask people how to do it but very few have actually stated that they would help a person learn how to play the operation regardless of their logs. Its one thing if you know they aren't trying but quite another when you know they are trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akash Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 The poll is asking the wrong question. The question that needs to be asked and answered is this... Do you want content that, upon release, requires such a degree of min / maxing and near flawless maximum performance from each individual in a group in order to beat such that the absence of combat logs would hinder progression? Many of the players against combat logs are using the argument that since they have beaten hard mode and nightmare mode without logs, that logs are not required. Yet even the developers have stated the current operations are not really difficult, just that hard mode and nightmare mode have more strict gear checks in place. They have also stated they want to begin notching up the difficulty level in future operations. So again, the question isn't whether you want logs or not, but rather whether you want content that is sufficiently difficult that players without near perfect specs playing in optimized group compositions with near flawless performance will fail or whether you want more of the same difficulty we have today, which is to say content that simply requires a bit of gear to complete. Very good points. If you want challenging mechanics that also contain dps and hps checks, then you should be in favor of UI-overlaid, real-time meters. If you want fluff content, then they aren't necessary. Personally, I want to see the game evolve and have encounters that require more coordination and simultaneous performance. Sure you can do 2.2K dps on a static target, but can you do the necessary 1.5K dps on a target while dealing with mechanics that require movement and coordination? See this in Rift quite a bit. There is a spec called Rising Waterfall for warriors that requires a two-handed weapon. I prefer to use a different dual-wield spec. At a practice dummy, the Rising Waterfall guys will beat my dps by 10%. On most raid encounters I will beat the Rising Waterfall guys. Why? Because my dual wield spec allows me to hit from range and on the move. Their Rising Waterfall spec does virtually all of its damage in melee range, which mechanics don't allow them to be in a good deal of the time on many of the bosses we're doing. It's this type of analysis that real-time, UI overlaid performance meters allow for. Seeing it in real time lets me show the raid leader, when its mentioned I'm not in RW spec (which is obvious since I'm dual-wielding), that my spec is actually working better for the encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiserkreb Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Agreed. It's a good compromise. I'm sure someone will come up with a little gui to parse the logs and give you detailed breakdowns of the numbers too. I'm fine with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Now why is that important? Why is parsing a log outside of the game insufficient? Because you can't spam your e-peen after a hard mode. That's really the only reason. You want to wave your e-peen. Then you say it's a "baseless assumption" that this will happen. Hilarious. I know your type all too well. This is why we shouldn't have DPS meters. You guys ruin it for the rest of us. Ok. say your lvl 28 and you lvl up to 29. however, you do not know you hit lvl 29 until you alt-tab to bring up a text file that says you're lvl 29. I just want to know that information in game. and my type? how dare you. I used recount in WoW on my healing druid to maximize my healing output. not bash other people. how dare you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 i could analyze my dps now by writing down all my dmg and sticking it into a calculator, but i wont cuz that's inconvenient. Making it a little less inconvenient is an improvement, but not by much. The way i see it is - i want combat meters. You dont want me to have combat meters. Why dont you want me to have them? It's not like i am depriving you of anything. Cause I can live with compromise. I know there are those that do not need or want them or will ever have a need for them as well as they do not ever want that data even thrown at them in any way. Then there are those that want all the data they can get on not just them but everyone around them. When you have 2 sides on something as personal at this, you have to make a compromise. It's clearly something you cannot do or cannot understand. There hitting the most people in the bell curve of players and there doing a damn good job of it it seems. I'd say BW did their research and hit it just about bull eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pekish Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) because you dont want "your combat meter" you want mine... and if you want you can ask it to me as it's mine and i will gladly give it to you if i think you are a decent human being... end of story is it that hard to understand that i dont want to give my information to a person that I consider too stupid to handle any type of my information from my name to my combat log? it's because there is people stupid enough to judge other people through a videogame that i reseve my right to give or not give my information about my hobby because those people teorically CAN ruin my fun so why should i be forced by YOU to give freely away my information if i dont want to? Give me a server where they check the intelligence of people that join and i will not mind having my combat log public... but untill i am force to raid with a mentally 4y/o person I rather honestly dont share my info with him due to some VERY OBVIOUSE reason Edited March 13, 2012 by Pekish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Cause I can live with compromise. I know there are those that do not need or want them or will ever have a need for them as well as they do not ever want that data even thrown at them in any way. Then there are those that want all the data they can get on not just them but everyone around them. When you have 2 sides on something as personal at this, you have to make a compromise. It's clearly something you cannot do or cannot understand. There hitting the most people in the bell curve of players and there doing a damn good job of it it seems. I'd say BW did their research and hit it just about bull eye. how is it a compromise, when it is over something i want, and you dont want me to have? maybe if what i wanted took something away from you. but that is not the case. i am the only one being deprived of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiserkreb Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Ok. say your lvl 28 and you lvl up to 29. however, you do not know you hit lvl 29 until you alt-tab to bring up a text file that says you're lvl 29. I just want to know that information in game. and my type? how dare you. I used recount in WoW on my healing druid to maximize my healing output. not bash other people. how dare you. It was pretty easy to troll the healing meters in WoW as a druid by spamming regen and regrowth. I do agree though when it came down to being serious about healing it did help out in more than a few instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 What's missing? how about the game? give me the meters in the game.← ← ← Rift ... WoW ... Skyrim ... that a way ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 It was pretty easy to troll the healing meters in WoW as a druid by spamming regen and regrowth. I do agree though when it came down to being serious about healing it did help out in more than a few instances. yeah, like trying to minimize you overhealing. for my druid, recount added so much more to our farm-status raids than just clicking on health bars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrobot Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 No a lot of them have made it clear they would automatically kicked them immediately. Some have even gone to the point when it was brought up to help them, that the would not help them in the operations if they were new to the game. They have stated go read the information, ask people how to do it but very few have actually stated that they would help a person learn how to play the operation regardless of their logs. Its one thing if you know they aren't trying but quite another when you know they are trying. Yeah, and that's going to happen in game log or out of game log. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. I would be, and have been more than glad to help people figure out rotations, or what they're doing wrong. Stuff happens, especially with how many abilities we have, I can understand players getting confused. I would think that even with an in game log that broke down abilities, you could tell who is trying, and who is just confused. There are several resources on the internet though, and I don't see why a player shouldn't learn to play their class before they attempt "harder" content. If you're unsure, or leveling was difficult why not take a look at some resources and see if you're doing something wrong. I can't blame some players for not wanting to help those who don't help themselves, but if a player refuses to learn anything, why should they participate in group content anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akash Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 ← ← ← Rift ... WoW ... Skyrim ... that a way ... Modern Gaming World ---------> This way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Ok. say your lvl 28 and you lvl up to 29. however, you do not know you hit lvl 29 until you alt-tab to bring up a text file that says you're lvl 29. I just want to know that information in game. Apples and oranges. Knowing what level your character is happens to be crucial to playing the game as that directly impacts what gear you can use, how the stats on the gear affect your character etc. Seeing the combat log isn't, and you will be able to go over the combat log as long as you want after a wipe or something happens that just didn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 how is it a compromise, when it is over something i want, and you dont want me to have? maybe if what i wanted took something away from you. but that is not the case. i am the only one being deprived of anything. Bioware has made a few things I didn't like but I learn to accept that it what they thought was best. One thing I disliked was the way they tied the legacy system into all my characters with the same last name/title. I didn't like that but they did it so I learned to accept it and deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 ← ← ← Rift ... WoW ... Skyrim ... that a way ... IMO, it's starting to seem like SWTOR copied all the "What" from WoW, but not the "Why." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Modern Gaming World ---------> This waySo what is "This way"? What released MMO outside of addon-laden WoW & Rift would you consider as modern? Edited March 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Ok. say your lvl 28 and you lvl up to 29. however, you do not know you hit lvl 29 until you alt-tab to bring up a text file that says you're lvl 29. I just want to know that information in game. What an absurd "analogy". This doesn't graft on to the current situation even a little. It's a mockery. and my type? how dare you. I used recount in WoW on my healing druid to maximize my healing output. not bash other people. how dare you. Since you'll be able to do exactly that with what's being provided, what possible problem can you have? A meter in real time doesn't give you anything except a summation number. The answers have always come from parsing the data outside of the game, even in games with real time meters. Who do you think you are, Commander Data? You want to wave your "superiority" in the faces of others. Not because I say so, but because it's the only thing left. You don't care about analyzing performance. We know this because that's exactly what you're getting and you're still not happy. You are thoroughly dishonest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 this content is a JOKE, every nightmare mode is laughable and this is coming from a player who has done every single nightmare mode and compared it to several tiers of raiding across several MMO's including FFXI Then you don't need logs for this game. See, you provided yourself with a rational reason why, even though you feign to not know the contents of the 90+ pages of comments that you claim to have been present for since the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Bioware has made a few things I didn't like but I learn to accept that it what they thought was best. One thing I disliked was the way they tied the legacy system into all my characters with the same last name/title. I didn't like that but they did it so I learned to accept it and deal with it. right. and you can choose not to use legacies. just like you could choose not to use combat data Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 right. and you can choose not to use legacies. just like you could choose not to use combat data They are giving you combat data... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagadeath Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Ok. say your lvl 28 and you lvl up to 29. however, you do not know you hit lvl 29 until you alt-tab to bring up a text file that says you're lvl 29. I just want to know that information in game. and my type? how dare you. I used recount in WoW on my healing druid to maximize my healing output. not bash other people. how dare you. so you want addons then? recount is a 3rd party addon. blizzard does not give you damage meters or healing meters in WoW. what you should be asking for then instead of combat logs *which you are getting* is for BW to open the game up to addons. as to the first part of the above quote. i don't see how you could miss that loud notification or the big panel that comes up and blocks off the top half of your screen telling you that you leveled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 how is it a compromise, when it is over something i want, and you dont want me to have? CORRECTION: Bioware does not want you to have what you are pleading for. Your constant arguing and bickering is with the wrong people. Go argue with Bioware, since they are the ones who said no public logs for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 how is it a compromise, when it is over something i want, and you dont want me to have? maybe if what i wanted took something away from you. but that is not the case. i am the only one being deprived of anything. There it is again. I'm now convinced you have no idea what compromise is or simple can't accept it cause it not what you want individually. Sometimes, you have to give a little more than you get and this is the best way to get both sides what they need and still not have the derogatory number crunchers throwing it around every chat screen they have access to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 right. and you can choose not to use legacies. just like you could choose not to use combat data You still able to use the combat logs as well. It may not be what you want but its a compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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