Valor 65 Sniper Explaining [In Detail] State of Snipers in PvP atm -->

[shadowAI]

I also have a pyro PT. You're not going 20-40 seconds without a proc, that's borderline statistically impossible. Once every 6 seconds is a nerf. Pyro's insane burst damage comes from a good chain of Rail Shot procs, because they let you spam your skills at virtually no heat gain. There's now a minimum of 4 skill uses between each proc for over 60 heat gain if you spam real skills without mixing in Rapid Shots. Pyro is gonna be far more heat limited than it used to be.

 

As for Mercs, I don't know how all those changes combine together, I don't have one. All I know is that they're upset. Considering how far off your Pyro claims are and your belief that Mercs will have an "easy" time hitting for 11k, I'm not inclined to go with your opinion, though.

 

I'll be very surprised if all these changes don't leave us (and Marauders) as king of the dps classes, it's already extremely rare that I get outdamaged, whether I'm Marks or Leth.

 

I've got a level 50 pyro and many times during leveling I would have the unlucky chance of railshot proc not occuring for 20-30 seconds even when I was spamming a proc ability every gcd. It might seem statistically impossible, but it does occur.

 

In regards to heatseeker. I assume you are not aware of how heat signature works. If they havent fixed the bug then mercs will still be getting significantly high heatseekers.

Heres heatseeker hit in pvp when enough heat signatures were stacked.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/764/bighits.jpg

 

Anyway now that the new proc rate is out (not significantly higher, 45% and 60%) I agree that the change to pyro is a nerf.

[JimmyDoug]

Keep up the good work choz! Have this class fixed by the time I get mine 50. Thanks!

[Poe_]

I've got a level 50 pyro and many times during leveling I would have the unlucky chance of railshot proc not occuring for 20-30 seconds even when I was spamming a proc ability every gcd. It might seem statistically impossible, but it does occur.

Never been my experience on my PT. Ever. Procs come often with FB/JP spam.

[Clonazepam]

TehChozenOne:

 

I have been BM for more than 1 month now, so yea i know what i am talking about. You need to sop assuming anyone that disagrees with you either he has no idea what he is talking about or he faces a bunch of noob oponents, there are a ton of War Heros and some conquerors in my server, so if you want to dismiss all the players in a server just for the sake of it go ahead.

 

Some clarifications:

1. I never said we killed tanks, our dmg is physical and for that we have a hard time killing tanks.
   
2. Orbital Strike has a 2 secs cast time (if you are MM), 45 secs cooldown (again MM), it lasts 12 secs (sniper pvp set bonus) so yea its a really good tool if you use it right. In your example you are right ppl have enough time to get away from it but if he is melee either he sucks the dmg or he moves away and you have a cool and nice 10 free secs to tear him appart.
   
3. Any sniper that knows how to play do not throw darts and grenades randomly so dont come here with those comments. I never use grenades, only use dart when i am moving to a new possition and yes i do use probe, its totally required for the burst (ambush + probe = 4-9k hit depending on how good/bad geared the target is, criticals, etc.)
   
4. We dont depend on our burst only, we have really good sustained damage, so that argument about only being worth every 6-18 secs is not valid.
   
5. All our abilities(that matter) are in 1 minute or less cooldown, and you dont get 1 vs 1 faster than that so yea if needed you can blow everything on a 1 v 1 to win. For instance Entrench has 45 secs cooldown and it lasts for 20 or 25 secs (dont recall im at work) so yea you can have that activated on every single 1 v 1 fight.
   
6. We are talking about snipers at high pvp rank right? So everyone has their pvp sets so yea interrupt is 35m range.
   

 

I can tell based on your post that you probably have not been 65 for a very long time, or you have a lack of BattleMasters in FULL BM gear on your server. I hit lv50 before 2012 hit, and have been Valor 60 about a week into January. Which means I've been a Battlemaster since PRE 1.1

 

If you honestly feel that our class is not broken.. then you have no concept of what other fully geared toons are capable of.

 

 

That being said, the difference between our class and other classes is MASSIVE. Our skill cap is higher, but our overall damage is lower. It is EASY to top damage as a Sniper. Spam AoE skills, and DoT everyone you see.. however WarZones are not about Kills or Damage. They are about winning. Also.. EVERY other class in the game can run the ball [minis Operatives] but even they are stronger ball carriers than Snipers [self heals, ect].

 

 

Wrong again. Sorcs, and Maras kill healers [and Tanks] fasters and more efficently. Between their cc, and raw damage, Snipers fall severely behind in that Argument. You honestly just picked to 2 BEST classes for MURDERING healers/tanks. Bleeds go through Armor. So do DoTs. Sorcs are the BEST kiters in the game, and Maras hit like a truck. I mentioned in my OP that we had the best Burst in the game. This is true, however we can ONLY do that once everyone 6-18 seconds. Sorcs and Maras can do that CONSISTANTLY during the course of the game. They can also switch to new targets faster as well.

 

 

Wrong again. Resolve is an extremely important factor in the game, and even though we have an incredible amount of cc, due to our lack of damage mitagation our peels are irrelevant because after your cc wears off [which it will] the target you just took out of the fight, can [AND WILL] tear you to pieces. In comparison to the other classes we lack defensive CDs to make anything we do look worth while.

 

 

 

Wrong again. Duel a Marauder in FULL BATTLEMASTER with Rakata Offset pieces.. or a Competent Assassin/Operative. If you didn't feel the massive shortcomings of your class at that point you either are

 

1- Using Cybertech Nades

2- Hit ALOT of crits and are MM

3- The other player afk'd out or tremendously f***ed up.

 

 

 

You do realize that all of this orbital strike talk is very absurd. It has a 3sec cast time, and 5 sec activation time. any player that this not slapping his d*ck on his keyboard to play this game knows they can back up 5m, or walk forward 5k and not get hit. Flashbang/Legshot ONLY keep them cc'd for 5-8secs IF they're NOT taking damage. Clearly you just admitted that as MM you don't use Dart or Probe to DPS. That speaks volumes about your spec, and "play style". Let me know how RapidFire is working out for you sir "pro status".

 

 

 

So you are telling me that unless you are using ENTRENCH you can't win? So really unless you have ALL of your CDs you can't beat the other classes 1v1. Did i mention that the other classes can LoS you while you're entrenched, making it a useless CD 1/2 the time. GOOD players KNOW how to "deal" with Snipers.

 

 

Marks does better verses Melee. Leth/Engin does MUCH better verses casters.. and tanks. I also spec into "CounterMeasures" which lets me use my aggro drop to remove movement impairing effects. Seems good if i need to drop into cover when i'm rooted. It has also been tested.. Leth/Engin does SIGNIFICANTLY more burst than MM [if your target is fully DoT'd]. It is also alot more mobile as well. Then again.. its all personal preference. I won't outright say MM is better or worse for PvP. Both specs server their purpose.. but i will comment on your spec if you're 31 points into it.

 

Honeybadger Crits you for my two cents.

 

 

ps- our interrupt has 30m of range unless you have your 4set fieldtech pvp bonus [NOT 35m like you stated earlier]

[ntyzor]

I'll only say this once:

 

Snipers and Marauders have 3 dps trees - OK

Snipers and Marauders have similar dps output - OK

Sniper doesn't have half the survivability of a Marauder - NOT OK

 

Kudos

Edited March 22, 2012 by ntyzor

[Ayestes]

There is more to the Sniper vs. Marauder then just those three fields of comparison. A Sniper has other advantages over a Marauder and the Marauder has other advantages over a Sniper. You can't simplify it like that. I'm not going to take a side here, just pointing out that it's a little naive to try and compare it like that.

[roflmaomgwtfbbq]

**also note- if you're worried about your number of kills/damage in a warzone they you're worrying about the wrong thing. I do great damage/KdR too, however it is irrelevant. Winning>Statistics.

 

I think what they mean when saying snipers are often top on kills/damage is because it's what snipers should do, to kill. So i think they're doing the right thing.

Edited March 23, 2012 by roflmaomgwtfbbq

[Astoncam]

Agree with OP, great post.

 

I'm only lvl50 during 2 days but in valor rank 40 i noted tons of differences between the Sniper and my previous class (Jedi Consular Sage). I have no mobility, long CD's to be effective, peopole LoS you everytime (obvious) and melee players laughs at you.

 

With the Sage, you can run (force speed) you can enemy players everytime you want, do some real damage without staying in the same place for more than 3 secs and you have tons of resources (sprint, rescue, hots, heal, knockback, 2-3 stuns, slow...).

 

For the Sniper, I understand that maybe the class-mechanic requires more skill to play it correctly on PvP. But today, it's a real nightmare trying to do some dps to any ranged target playing LoS with you, or praying for that melee that comes 10 meters away dont put the eye on you.

 

I haven't enough experience and skill yet with the sniper to do a real critic about the sniper like OP. I only try to talk about the difference between the sniper and the most-played ranged class in the game, Consulars-Inquisitors Sage/Sorc.

 

Sorry about my english by the way.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Astoncam

[Darthdubstep]

No I didn't imply we should be able to snipe while running. Edited March 25, 2012 by Paralassa
content

[ntyzor]

people crying about mobility have no clue about the class. I don't need to ambush while running to get my 400k damage in a warzone. If i do it then everyone can do it, it's just a matter of playing the class.

 

 

There is more to the Sniper vs. Marauder then just those three fields of comparison. A Sniper has other advantages over a Marauder and the Marauder has other advantages over a Sniper. You can't simplify it like that. I'm not going to take a side here, just pointing out that it's a little naive to try and compare it like that.

And yes i am comparing with Marauder, cause it's the only other class that has 3 dps trees.

A sniper has other advantages then a marauder ... not OVER a Marauder. I am not naive, I am realistic.

 

If you give 1000$ to each of 10 guys having a Inquisitor or Hunter, in order to start a PvP toon to become "the best" or at least close to "the best" , while making them choose between Marauder and Sniper they will all choose Marauder.

[Ayestes]

And yes i am comparing with Marauder, cause it's the only other class that has 3 dps trees.

A sniper has other advantages then a marauder ... not OVER a Marauder. I am not naive, I am realistic.

 

That's not what I meant, I apologize for being unclear. It's okay to compare a Sniper to a Marauder, but to limit it to only 3 fields of comparison is akin to judging an entire city by studying 3 random city blocks.

 

To be completely honest, I think the issue is too difficult to judge by a single human to even make the comparison. It would take an analysis of every ability and every aspect of each class to make a fair call, and even that is extremely subjective. The people I play with most are a Pyro Powertech, an Annihilation Marauder, and a Corruption Sorcerer. I can say without a doubt that I have strengths that these classes don't have, and I also have weaknesses these classes don't have. Is a Sniper better then a Marauder? That's entirely circumstantial. The classes are very, very different. I mean, the quick advantages I can think of are snap burst damage, 35 meter range, knockbacks, cover, and entrench. Does that make us better then them? No, but it doesn't mean we are worse off either because they are more durable then we are. I also think you underestimate our advantages, but I doubt I can change your mind on that.

 

In the end it's very subjective and circumstantial, and I don't believe you or anyone can come to a decision without at least 30 well-written paragraphs to back it up. Does the Sniper need some fixes? If you've read any of my stuff on that before then you'd know I agree they do. Do we need to more powerful? Not in the general sense. We just need to have our weaknesses softened as right now they are crippling and extremely severe when compared to the weaknesses of other classes.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Ayestes

[nikthebeast]

I'm only lvl50 during 2 days but in valor rank 40 i noted tons of differences between the Sniper and my previous class (Jedi Consular Sage). I have no mobility, long CD's to be effective, peopole LoS you everytime (obvious) and melee players laughs at you.

 

A fresh lvl50 sniper will struggle, as will most fresh lvl50 dps classes. You're going to find even centurion gear is going to make a massive difference for you. Then again, 1.2 hits soon and you'll have much easier time gearing up than any of the pre-1.2 pvpers.

 

If people constantly LOS you, you need to revise your strategy. For example, on your first target go into cover, insta-snipe(snap shot) -> followthrough(if you have it) -> legshot, cover -> Ambush/expl probe(will hit at the same time), SoS/takedown/filler ability. I'm not the most seasoned MM sniper though but that's how I did it once upon a time.

 

Key to have a good key-bind for cover in order to make your movements more seamless.

 

Learn to love your Orbital strike as well.

 

The difference between MM and the rest is that your CC won't break. You're not applying DOTs, which is what makes legshot so much better for MM-sniper in terms of pinning down players for a nice and stationary target. Same with flashbang.

[BambulaGTS]

Atm sniper needs + 5 % passive accuracy after choosing sniper advanced class and + 5 % passive accuracy while being in cover.

 

Sniper being in cover (natural or portable) must have basic + 10 % passive accuracy (at least ranged, dump tech accuracy) as much as inq/consular have passive + 10 % basic ranged dodge.

 

It is freaking sniper with a scope, not a nab first time seeing rifle.

Edited March 24, 2012 by BambulaGTS

[prochuvi]

you needa big LEARN TO PLAY.snipers are OP and if you cant see it reroll other class.

have you tried to play comando gunnery?less mob than snipers,havent inmune to interrupt and charges,havent interrupt and a BIG etc of cc that snipers have

[BambulaGTS]

you needa big LEARN TO PLAY.snipers are OP and if you cant see it reroll other class.

have you tried to play comando gunnery?less mob than snipers,havent inmune to interrupt and charges,havent interrupt and a BIG etc of cc that snipers have

 

You bro are such a nab.

 

My sniper is 79 valor atm and it is "over 9000" wz played.

 

I need not to reroll cause I have other characters and enjoy them all.

 

Sniper is not OP, not even close.

 

When I play my pyro powertech I think: "What da freak is going on?". THIS IS OP and that's why it will be nerfed in 1.2. Not "OP" sniper.

 

PS I will never ever will play lol tracer spammer. Idea behind this crap is digusting to me.

[Poe_]

You bro are such a nab.

 

My sniper is 79 valor atm and it is "over 9000" wz played.

 

I need not to reroll cause I have other characters and enjoy them all.

 

Sniper is not OP, not even close.

 

When I play my pyro powertech I think: "What da freak is going on?". THIS IS OP and that's why it will be nerfed in 1.2. Not "OP" sniper.

 

PS I will never ever will play lol tracer spammer. Idea behind this crap is digusting to me.

I think he trolled you bro.

[Irenicus_Jon]

My main is a sniper, and I have a lvl50 mercenary as well. My sniper is much better geared than my mercenary (sniper has full rakata except weapon, mercenary is mish-mash of tier 1 and tier 2 pve gear and tier 2 pvp gear). I enjoy pvp with both classes and perform reasonably well with either of them, the decision which one I play usually boils down to how I want to PvP that night. The sniper is MM while the mercenary is pyrotech.

 

Damage/kilss: In terms of overall damage and kills, they seem equivalent (or at least, comparable). Sniper is a bit more bursty whereas mercenary tends to wear a target down. The two classes have very similar core rotations, sniper is snipe/ambush+followthrough, mercenary is powershot/unload+railshot. Despite this sniper feels more clunky and more vulnerable to LoS. The clunkiness comes from having to go into cover all the time. There's also another factor, with the sniper I feel I need to stay as far away from the actual fight as possible, whereas with the merc I feel I can get much close (and actually do). Another difference is their AoEs, with the mercenary, I burn death from above every chance I get, even if it will target a single person. With the sniper I save orbital strike for defensive purposes (to throw on top of myself) or when I'm sure it will affect many targets for the full duration. In constrast sniper has a semi-spammable frag grenade.

 

Survivabilty: This is much better with the merc and I can only achieve this on my sniper by staying far away from the fight. The mercenary has a better defensive cooldown in the form of energy shield, a small regen on a cooldown (made shorter with the pyrotech tree), slightly higher damage reduction, and the ability to cast a no heat instant heal (if you burn two long cooldowns on it). Small things like this add up to allow the mercenary position at places where it would be dangerous for a sniper. They also make it possible to carry the ball in huttball.

 

Utility: By far the best utility of sniper (and one I sorely miss while playing the merc) is legshot. Stops people from carrying the ball, running away, running to the objective, etc. Rest of sniper's utility is lackluster at best. Flash grenade is excellent for a crowd but has terrible duration/resolve ratio. Debilitate is melee only for a class that wants to stay as far away from melee as possible (not saying it doesn't have its uses). Cover pulse is actually good, but almost an exercise in humiliation if you want to use offensively (you need to legshot any half-decent player since you can't use it on the move). On the mercenary the knockback can be used on the move (one of the most shocking features the first time I experienced it, I knew other classes had instant knockbacks but still it is such a thrill when you do it yourself). Concussion missile is a ranged fire-and-forget cc that you can throw at someone who is not engaged in the melee. Electro dart is an extremely useful instant stun. And you can heal. The ability to throw a heal, even if you are inefficient at it and even if you over-heat, is extremely useful, in PvP and PvE.

 

To sum up, if I want to see big numbers pop up (or watch how quickly enemy health degenerates) without worrying too much about objectives, I play my sniper. If I want to actually play the warzones for the objectives and to win, I switch to my mercenary.

[Narfirill]

if the shield probe reach sorc bubble lvl (or close coze we have medium armor) defences are ok.

if mm mainly get their most use full abilities to be tech or a mix of tech/normal attacks will be ok. or double the armor reduction from debuf skill, or ad some shield reduction.

 

if lethality gets a 40-60% dispel resistance will be ok.

 

 

then you can copy marauders 4 sec vanish/ 30% speed and will truly love you BW.

 

mobility is fine if you get used to limitations (and ok if some at list of the above are implemented).

 

Utility: with the above current utility would be ok if not improve snares and knock backs (maybe sort stuns become unbreakable by damage application)

Edited March 30, 2012 by Narfirill

[Elboc]

I LOVE the roll into cover idea.. Very good. I have also been thinking that MM snipers or really any sniper needs some type of camoflauge ability. Just makes sense.

[Monkeybusiness]

You bro are such a nab.

 

My sniper is 79 valor atm and it is "over 9000" wz played.

 

I need not to reroll cause I have other characters and enjoy them all.

 

Sniper is not OP, not even close.

 

When I play my pyro powertech I think: "What da freak is going on?". THIS IS OP and that's why it will be nerfed in 1.2. Not "OP" sniper.

 

PS I will never ever will play lol tracer spammer. Idea behind this crap is digusting to me.

 

I like this guy, makes me proud to play my sniper

[Monkeybusiness]

I LOVE the roll into cover idea.. Very good. I have also been thinking that MM snipers or really any sniper needs some type of camoflauge ability. Just makes sense.

 

Cover roll is 85% I died -_-' and 15% pwew i made it.

 

It's not really that helpful since it triggers an animation (i noticed a delay in comparison to crounch)

 

Nice idea yes, but problematic trick in most cases.

[Dobah]

Ok this post is genus... Good ideas, we need some kind of peel. Would make life nice.

[GameMasterZephyr]

Having played a sniper (not my main, but still) to valor rank 55 so far my observations are the same as the OP's post on this matter. I play full ENG with some in MM and 3 in leth and do very well with it in PVP and PVE even though it is pretty complex to use. Even his suggestions of possible fixes are in line with what I speculated even before having read his post. Snipers (and by proxy Gunslingers just so I dont repeat them in this post) need the following, and keep in mind any NEW skills will need a PVE usefulness as well because Bioware WILL NOT make skills that are PVP only.

 

*Increase ranged distance - I suggest +5m to a max range of 40m at a minimal. There is no reason what Snipers have the SAME max range as other ranged classes, but in general is less important than other suggestions. Too much range would make snipers too powerful and that is the risk. This has little use PVE except the point that NPC targets often times have range longer than 35m.

 

*Escape Mechanic - Combat Vanish. Snipers are vunerable once players get to them and there is no way to get players off of them. We are not tanks... and all other classes that dont use heavy armor have means of escape. Even the Marauder, not that they even need it because they have a second and even third means of escape if used situationly used, has a combat stealth. Snipers are dead once a player gets on top of them period.

 

*Camouflage - Seriously I do not know why Snipers dont get this when it makes so much sense and would go a long way to help them in PVP. Similar to how Camouflage works in WoW I would have this 'obscure' the Sniper so they are harder to see. Not necessarly make them untargetable in range or immune to AoEs, but such that their name plates do not show and they are "partially" visible and harder to see in sight. In PVE I would have a threat reduction while it is active. The question is should it be something that is passive to Snipers (Not OPs) or something that is on a CD with a duration. I lean towards an Active with a CD.

 

*Fixes to Cover and LoS - Cover on edges needs to be fixed... period. Line of Sights hurts snipers more than any other class, and as such I suggest that ONCE we started channeling/casting that the skill SHOULD hit the target regardless if they have LOSed the sniper or not. Would help a lot in PVP, not much use PVE. Currently just stepping behind a box would stop a snipers cast/channel skill. I frankly would apply this fix to all classes, but this does hurt snipers more than any other.

 

*Ranged Stun - Why do snipers have a MELEE stun? We are a ranged class... not a melee class. Not much needs to be said about that.

 

On the OP's other suggetions...

 

*Portable cover - Basic cover roll is a bit wonky in when it works to begin with and frankly I would much rather TURN OFF autoroll into cover when I try to crotch because of this. It may be difficult to implement on a technical level, but I can see some uses ONCE cover is fixed, but for now its not really needed and would be problematic to implement and other fixes frankly should be higher priority to fix first.

 

*No slows - Outside of the ENG talent tied to ANOTHER ENG talent I can see the issue, but having a slow isn't the Snipers biggest concern either, and ENG is picking up another one from what I hear in 1.2 with Plasma Probe (another ENG talent at the top) getting slow too. Either way a slow isnt a huge issue with snipers because well it isn't going to keep players off you and you are not going to be kiting most of the time because most other classes have slows themselves or means to close the distance. Not high priority, but other specs could use a slow that ENG gets... just not as needed as other fixes.

 

*Change Laze Target - Unsure about this idea, This skill DOES depreicate once you get good crit %... however as I think about this you are on the right path. Making this skill into just making your next skill unavoidable is somewhat worthless because unless a target has a skill that gives them a high avoid you will hit your target pretty much all the time to begin with. How about this... Change Laze Target to make your attacks/skills not miss for the next 10 seconds period? Would be more useful in that case.

 

*Talent (new/redo existing talent) to give the sniper increased movement speed after exiting cover - This would be very helpful and provides a possible means of escape. Question is... which tree and how high up? Maybe they should just make this passive for all snipers. A solid idea and worth looking into, but tweaks to your numbers will be needed. Duration and Cooldown specifically, perhaps 5 seconds duration on a 30s CD after leaving cover would be where I would start.

 

Some great ideas and hopefully Bioware will respond. I certainly have noticed how few snipers/gunslingers there are out there... often times I feel I am a lone sniper in the middle of a sea of Sith, with the occasional BH/Trooper on the battlefield.

Edited March 31, 2012 by GameMasterZephyr

[oceansofmars]

L2P issue. If you think you should be able to just stand in one place and shoot because you are a sniper... Im sorry. If you stand still you die. huge.noob mistake Edited May 3, 2012 by Sireene
use of retarded - due to age of post, no action

[Narfirill]

L2P issue. If you think you should be able to just stand in one place and shoot because you are a sniper... Im sorry. If you stand still you die. huge.noob mistake

 

Have you understand the way the class is desingned? and what developers what and expect us to do?

Edited May 3, 2012 by Sireene
reply to edited post