johnduane Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Here's a quote: "We wanted to have a system that encouraged players to create alts and to play the game through the different story paths. So the legacy system is meant to do that." Edited version: Here's a quote: "We wanted to have a system that encouraged players to create alts and to have to subscribe for longer periods of time. So the legacy system is meant to do that." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) This thread drips with the sentiment that if you are not progressing something optimally, it has no value or is a punsihment. It's the same game it was a month ago but, now there are some extra bonuses for stuff you were already doing. (For the record, my main character is a human.) Edited March 7, 2012 by Parali avoiding language filter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainBlackout Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Umm Yeah? They had a crapload of quests in that game and the expansions that came out. Along with other things in the game. And a crapload of expansions and modules, with it with an amazing tool for modders that caught them by surprise as to how welcomed and used by the community it was. So yes, I think before I speak Yes, I've scripted for that game. I'm fully aware of the toolset, the player resource consortium, and all the player created modules. But community-driven development has absolutely no relevance to completionism. They are two entirely different things. You can take virtually any game on the market and say it's completionist. Hell, you could do it with Super Mario Brothers and definitely with Zelda. But at that point it's about your attitude and your style of play. Not the game's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainBlackout Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) This thread drips with the sentiment that if you are not progressing something optimally, it has no value or is a punsihment. It's the same game it was a month ago but, now there are some extra bonuses for stuff you were already doing. (For the record, my main character is a human.) Yeah, ad hominem. But thanks for your "contribution." Edited March 7, 2012 by Parali bad quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden_Dissent Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I just wanted to play an Ortalan. Is that so much to ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skuldar Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 According to some Guild Summit FAQ most of the Legacy rewards can simply be bought off some vendor. This whole Legacy concept seems more aimed to roleplayers and not to min-maxers. You'd think it was aimed at role players, but the one-surname-for-all flies in the face of that, as does forcing 50 levels to broaden race/class combinations. A role player would be just as likely to pick certain races for certain characters as a min-maxer, but for different reasons. If they really want to encourage alts, why not shared legacy vaults or free mail between alts (friends and family plan, how natural)? There is a difference between encouraging alts and merely rewarding grinding; like most MMOs, TOR leans too much on the grind and not enough on mechanisms with more depth and creativity. That being said, TOR is still probably the least grindy MMO I've played (prior to level cap), and I've played plenty starting with EQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawke Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Yes, I've scripted for that game. I'm fully aware of the toolset, the player resource consortium, and all the player created modules. But community-driven development has absolutely no relevance to completionism. They are two entirely different things. You can take virtually any game on the market and say it's completionist. Hell, you could do it with Super Mario Brothers and definitely with Zelda. But at that point it's about your attitude and your style of play. Not the game's. Is everyone trolling today? Look, hoss, you just keyed in the toolset. The toolset was an afterthought for Bioware. They didn't know how awesome it would have been for the community. I know, I worked that beast too back in the day. I was talking about all the expansions with the crazy number of missions/quests and little nooks and crannies you could get into. That game also predates modern day gaming "completionism" because they were no achievements or cloud gaming for tracking your accomplishments. It was how the game was designed and rewarded those who went through all the quests with items, or easter eggs or something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainBlackout Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Is everyone trolling today? No, you were implying that TOR is like that based on the premise that all Bioware games are like that. If a premise is incorrect, then the argument isn't necessarily invalid (denying the antecedent), but it loses its merit when it's based entirely on inductive reasoning. Your post was non-constructive, dismissive and poorly founded. The response was appropriate. Edited March 7, 2012 by CaptainBlackout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainBlackout Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 There is a difference between encouraging alts and merely rewarding grinding; like most MMOs, TOR leans too much on the grind and not enough on mechanisms with more depth and creativity. That being said, TOR is still probably the least grindy MMO I've played (prior to level cap), and I've played plenty starting with EQ. You definitely missed an educational experience in early UO. It was pretty amazing, and the complete antithesis of grind. You could have a maxed character in two days. Items were all lost on death so it was all easily replaceable basic to exceptional stuff from player blacksmiths. And still the game stood on game play alone. It's hard to have seen that and still relate to the modern conclusions about the genre's necessities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardred Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Have you noticed that the legacy experience you gain on your level 50 character is toned down? I gain much better legacy experience on my alts (3 characters between 20-30) than on my level 50 main. So system actually encourages you to play alts and not just concentrate on the main character... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orkaan Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) So I will unlock it with credits... Edited March 7, 2012 by Orkaan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnapWolf Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 So I will unlock it with credits... Yes, my friend. You have some sense of what people fail to grasp in this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainBlackout Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Yes, my friend. You have some sense of what people fail to grasp in this topic. Yes, let's not address a fundamental inconsistency in an incredibly important game mechanic because we can opt out in a way that is also an exponential function of player level. Yes, that makes "sense." Edited March 7, 2012 by CaptainBlackout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawke Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 No, you were implying that TOR is like that based on the premise that all Bioware games are like that. If a premise is incorrect, then the argument isn't necessarily invalid (denying the antecedent), but it loses its merit when it's based entirely on inductive reasoning. Your post was non-constructive, dismissive and poorly founded. The response was appropriate. Sorry man, your fancy words do not change the fact that Bioware makes games that cause you to play, and play and play. They utilize techniques that entice their audiences to continue to play and want more, and selling more expansions. No matter what the game or series is. Now they have evolved to microtransactions. To say I am wrong, is, well, wrong. Or you are looking for an argument. Of which I will not do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhirne Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I'm gonna chime in on this one... The problem stems from the fact that the legacy system is ALREADY in the game - but not functional. The system was put there, we were told about it, but never really given any specifics on how it worked. And up until now, no one (other than BW) knew how it would really work. So people have been playing one way, only to find out it actually works a different way. I was actually thinking about this last night. Myself, I'm in not an alt-aholic as some people are. The system in itself is designed to reward alt-aholics. And having a system in place, that no one knows how it works or will work, people played various classes. Now that they know some details, Some really wish they would have played a different Species to start with. Why play a HUMAN, which is available to all classes, as a Sith Warrior, when i can play a Sith, and at lvl 50, I unlock it for ALL classes. But then you come to the problem of "I don't play alts - I mainly play my main - the first character I create. Maybe 1 other character but mainly my first character." They now have no benefits from the legacy system. Short of what may come by adding their companion (which you won't be able to in 1.2) to their legacy. I know people are saying a lot of people are whinning about it, but the problem started with BW becasue we had a system in place, that no one other than BW even knew how it worked. We were left with a system that was in-place, but we knew nothing about. It's like being told "Hey, you can play hide and go seek" so you and your friends start playing it. Then after 8 hours, you are told "By the way, here are the rules for hide and go seek." I'm not whining about it, but it would have been some usefull information from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IasonEvan Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 My two cents: I understand BioWare being ambiguous at the beginning, but once they knew what was being implemented, it would have been nice to know what we were getting with the legacy system so we could have started working on it. The fact that they left it ambiguous is what I have a problem with. They said they were letting us play already existing races. They didn't say that they were only the races that were playable, but races that were in the game. That meant there was a chance that unplayable races that were in the game could be made playable with this feature. While none of this stuff is life altering or even a huge deal in game, it's a bummer that communication still seems to be such a problem with BioWare, when companies like ArenaNet are wearing their developer hearts on their sleeve with Guild Wars 2. Letting your customers know what is going on goes a long way in letting you in our wallets. Maybe they just wanted to keep us on the sub fee leash by remaining ambiguous. I don't know, but I do know that if this kind of thing persists they won't be keeping me over the long term. There are just too many games out there that are vying for my hard earned money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindara Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 You can buy with ingame credits the aditional races if you'd rather use your legacy to buy other things. There's nothing wrong with their logic its not supposed to be some easy gain to unlock more options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainBlackout Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Sorry man, your fancy words do not change the fact that Bioware makes games that cause you to play, and play and play. They utilize techniques that entice their audiences to continue to play and want more, and selling more expansions. No matter what the game or series is. Now they have evolved to microtransactions. To say I am wrong, is, well, wrong. Or you are looking for an argument. Of which I will not do. "Bioware makes games that does stuff to make you want to play more." Yeah, you're right. I can't say you're wrong because you've essentially said nothing. Selling expansions isn't evidence of completionist-oriented gaming. It's a way to make money, sure, but for the most part it's never been considered frivolous. Selling DLC is absolutely frivolous, but it's non-essential to the experience of the game and completely optional. I absolutely loved Mass Effect, but felt very little inclination to buy any of the DLC. All of this, though, has very little to do with the primary purpose of this thread in that it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it makes sense to encourage playing mains in a system that's designed to promote playing alts. It doesn't matter if you're viewing it from a completionist perspective or a non-completionist perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainBlackout Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 You can buy with ingame credits the aditional races if you'd rather use your legacy to buy other things. There's nothing wrong with their logic its not supposed to be some easy gain to unlock more options. I didn't say that it was supposed to be easy. I said it should be mostly level-independent progression. There is a distinct difference in the two statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambril Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Call me naive, but I kind of expected Legacy perks to be unlocked via Legacy levels. Now I find that one of the major ones, species unlock, depends on getting a character of that species to 50. I am one of those who created Republic and Empire toons on seperate servers (currently 6 each side to have all the crafts, and a few place holders), so even getting a character to 50 won't unlock that much for me (unless they make the unlocks account-wide instead of single server). And of course my first, and so far only, level 50 is human. The presence buff is OK but I doubt I will notice its effect in practice. Oh well, I guess I'll have to wait to see the credit costs and do it via that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamqd Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) I couldn't give a crap to be honest, because I Role-play to a certain extent, I'm a massive Star Wars Lore fan, and I have an alt that is a different race and faction to my main... Why would a Human Smuggler, be of any relation to a Sith Pureblood Marauder, and how in canon would he use force choke? If you call your Toon L33t PwnZwer22, and just PVP, I'm sure your fat Mirilan father will be happy to pass on his force Push ability to his Chiss agent son and you can pew pew and force push your weekends away in bliss... But why create an RPG/Lore type system, that defies canon and RP? Edited March 7, 2012 by adamqd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varteras Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 There were multiple statements, which had the idea of "and we have something for those who stick to one character also", actually. Unless Bioware directly stated "and mains will get bonuses from this system that will be more attractive to them than for alt players" you're likely taking their quote out of context. To be honest it happens all the time and has been the cause of a lot of arguments in the past around here. Someone thought Bioware meant A because of something they said that was misinterpreted or intentionally twisted when the reality is they meant B. I never saw any statement that gave me the impression that main-only players would receive something that alt players would care less about. The system has always come off to me as something that is more attractive to people who roll alts. The Guild Summit information more or less confirmed this. Either way, what you thought it would be isn't the case. Sorry if you got your hopes up but this system is a bit more meaningful for someone who has four characters instead of just one. Now to be honest once new storylines come out this year and once the level cap is increased from an expansion people like you will likely find all of the bonuses useful whether you got them from simply leveling up Legacy or buying them with credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trolltar Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I suppose, also, that this move will make it more difficult to implement race changes. Huh, That's a damn fine point you just made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindara Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) I couldn't give a crap to be honest, because I Role-play to a certain extent, I'm a massive Star Wars Lore fan, and I have an alt that is a different race and faction to my main... Why would a Human Smuggler, be of any relation to a Sith Pureblood Marauder, and how in canon would he use force choke? If you call your Toon L33t PwnZwer22, and just PVP, I'm sure your fat Mirilan father will be happy to pass on his force Push ability to his Chiss agent son and you can pew pew and force push your weekends away in bliss... But why create an RPG/Lore type system, that defies canon and RP? He could have a Sith ancestor that took advantage of or betrayed the family belief about "aliens". You could also leave your human smuggler out of your family tree. The legacy system gives you a family tree building system you dont have to add all of your characters into it and some of them you can put in as adoptions etc. If your Smuggler has a family relation thats a force user he could have force sensitivity and figured out for himself how to force choke just like Princess Leia figured out how to recongize and try to use the force in some of the books and the last movie without formal training. You dont have to be trained as a Jedi or a Sith to be able to use your force sensitivity which is a BIRTH given ability not something you go and train to do. Edited March 7, 2012 by Kindara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaimiIflya Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Something I think wasn't mentioned... you can buy anything in Legacy with enough Credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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