PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Wolfeisberg]

Nope, I like the way they are going to do it. If most of the time it was used in a good manner, I could agree to your idea. But, in my experience, it used in a bad manner more often then not and often causes arguments in PUG runs. The guilds that need the combat info can get their information from people sending in their parse, and I'm sure there is going to be programs created to make that a whole lot easier.

 

The only compromise I would be willing to go with, is that it is only shared among Guild members in game, with zero way of sharing that information outside of a guild.

[Starglide]

I don't care one way or the other but a toggle is still the best solution.

 

There are people that care and they are paying just as much as you and I are to play. If they don't want to share their log, you don't need to group with them.

 

By the way, your analogy using the captain of a team stinks. Some people play sports/games solely for recreation and are not there to be coached but simply to enjoy themselves. MMO's are not a competition for everyone.

 

I get that some people like the competitive nature of them and that is fine but don't paint everyone with the same brush.

 

I fully expect our guild to share logs to help each other out.

 

Read the last line of what you quoted..... My analogy is still a good one and you are not being objective. If you want to play for RECREATION.... BIOWARE has created a mode JUST FOR YOU, it is called STORY MODE. If you want to play COMPETITIVELY, then there is a mode for that.

 

Just like what you are saying about some people not wanting to play to be coached, then they DO NOT HAVE TO. But for the competitive side of things, WE WANT A COMBAT LOG.

 

Honestly, I do not see why people object to it. That is like competitive players complaining there is a STORY mode, it doesn't effect us so why complain about it. Not having a complete combat log effects the hardcore/competitive community more than having it effects the casuals.

 

Again, please understand the point before you criticize an analogy as your argument seems as you aforementioned.

[Silvafox]

 

Good players learn from damage meters.

 

Bad players hide from them. Or pick the easiest/FOTM class they can and bag about their DPS.

 

 

So. To paraphrase : "If you had any skill you would do things my way. If you don't agree with me than you are a total loser."

 

Ya ... that's the attitude we are talking about.

 

Thank you for proving my point.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Silvafox

[Amaste]

I'd like a true combat log so I can see what is going on in my group for instances/pvp. Then again, I group with people who don't take hearing suggestions or constructive criticism as a vicious attack on thier emotions, which seems to be the exact opposite of the general mindset in TOR. x.x

[ferroz]

By the way, your analogy using the captain of a team stinks. Some people play sports/games solely for recreation and are not there to be coached but simply to enjoy themselves. MMO's are not a competition for everyone..

itseems like a fine analogy.

 

If you're playing sports/games solely for recreation and are not there to be coached but simply enjoy yourself... then you shouldn't join a team where people don't want to play that way.

 

There's nothing wrong with designing the game to accommodate both you and the guy who wants to be able to coach his team and be competitive.

[ProphetX]

Have you ever played WOW? I've had random pugs where the HEALER complained non-stop that the DPS was too low and the run was taking too long. I've had DPS players in top tier gear bashing DPSers that just started that tier of content (ie their gear is not as good). I've had tanks hate on DPS for having lower DPS than them. All this happening as the bosses all died with no issues. That IS griefing.

 

 

Sorry, but I don't want every group I join to become a peeing contest when the bosses are being downed regardless.

 

 

So, again, I say no.

 

If your doing less dps than the tank he has a legitimate reason to complain , you mistake complaining for griefing . Its not hard to obtain gear in wow , not hard at all , its even harder to do less damage than the tank . The older I get I find the most valuable asset is time , its not fair to the ones that put in the work to have there time wasted by the ones that didn't / don't care .

 

So if you suck and you get called out on it , its now considered griefing , unbelievable .

Edited March 6, 2012 by ProphetX

[DaxRendar]

NO

 

I like the way they are doing it

[Wyomorph]

Starglide....I think the overall attitude that comes through in your posts is the perfect example of why many people DONT want the logs as you want them. You may claim to use them in a helpful manner, but your tone comes across as though you would be that ops leader reaming players or kicking players that aren't up to "your standards".

 

I for one think they are a good thing when used correctly and I am FOR an in-game tracking system for dps/threat/heals/combat log information. I use mine lots in WOW as player and raider.

 

That doesn't mean I'm going to rip people who disagree with me by telling them they are idiots, stupid, or not competitive enough to play this game.

[Darzil]

I vote no.

 

If future "difficult content" requires log parsing and threat meters then I'm afraid that it is poor content, badly designed, in my view.

[ferroz]

Exactly why I say no. The only experts on the game are the people who code it, not some 12 year old looking at combat logs who's having a bad day.

actually, the people studying the combat logs (not 12 year olds, but generally quite a bit older) have often been the actual experts in the game.

 

There were several mechanics in EQ that the combat log guys were able to reverse engineer; stuff that the designers swore for years was working when it simply wasn't.

[Starglide]

"If you had any skill you would do things my way. If you don't agree with me than you are the worst sort of loser imaginable"

 

Ya ... that's the attitude we are talking about.

 

Thank you for proving my point.

 

Again, combat logs also show WHAT WAS DONE TO YOU. And honestly, if you are putting up good numbers and someone says you shouldn't play that way and/or is rude, just leave. Why would you want to play for someone like that when a combat log is excluded?

 

Combat logs =/= to player attitudes nor does it provoke it. Although, if a leader observes the logs and you are continuously standing in fire and/or dying to stupid things, then you deserve to be told you are not doing something right. If he as rude about it, then leave. But don't you want to know if you are doing something wrong? Even if you aren't the one to catch it.

 

Honestly, if you put aside your pride, then combat logs are a great way to improve. Don't be embarrassed of someone seeing your mistakes--we all make them.

[Galbatorrix]

So you want to be carried? If that player is never shown that his dps sucks how will he know he needs to improve?

 

Damage meters teach.

 

Do you really think it's fair that 7 players in a pug are being held back because one of their 8 either doesn't know how to play or is slacking? By the way you're thinking you encourage slacking and bad playing.

 

 

Ok, do people not complain about how easy Ops are in this game? So, who's being carried again? Also, who's being held back? To be perfectly honest, if I'm having fun in a run and everything is dying, I couldn't care less if one of the DPS is still sitting at the beginning of the FP. I just want to have fun. WOW stopped being fun due to min/maxers trying to enforce their rule on others. In SWTOR, I can actually group again without hearing all of the bickering. And honestly, I'm not even referring to myself. I'm always one to spend time perfecting my rotation, enchanting/gemming my gear properly, etc. I just get sick of players arguing stupid stuff like this when the content is being cleared. So again, NO from me. I'd rather I keep having a good time where everyone in the group is just having fun. I don't need the tank telling the DPS to "pick it up" when we've already cleared two bosses.

[Vincynt]

Combat logs serve important for the future of DPS meters, threat meters and all around important additions that will help improve the overall performance of players, knowledge of players and most importantly CONTROL of your character.

 

Also understand that it will be MORE DIFFICULT for BioWare to implement TRULY difficult content with more engaging mechanics without the use of combat logs and logging for improvement.

 

Until they do decide to up the difficulty of the content in the game I feel there is no need for combat logs at all. If BW intends to keep the current difficulty set then I'd rather they focused on other things like squishing bugs or just generally adding content (I won't get into what kind of content).

 

IF BW intends to increase the difficulty then I'm ok with it (not that I ever felt them necessary to be able to raid in WoW but they did make it easier).

[Cindikle]

Have you ever played WOW? I've had random pugs where the HEALER complained non-stop that the DPS was too low and the run was taking too long. I've had DPS players in top tier gear bashing DPSers that just started that tier of content (ie their gear is not as good). I've had tanks hate on DPS for having lower DPS than them. All this happening as the bosses all died with no issues. That IS griefing.

 

 

Sorry, but I don't want every group I join to become a peeing contest when the bosses are being downed regardless.

 

 

So, again, I say no.

 

Then you needed a new group.

My warrior in wrath would very often out dps the dps by aoe tanking. My paladin would do the same. My priest has done it by spamming holy nova the whole way through. If the healer thinks it's going too slow they s/he probably had mana to spare to help. If they're going to complain about the speed of which things die then they will. Damage meter or not. If they see that they're 30mins in and not even at the first boss yet, they will complain. If your tank is top dps. Thank him/her for carrying you and you can't wait to be at their gear level. Then ask how awesome the current end game him to distract them from your dps to their Epeen.

 

I've had many times where I would see someone play a class I knowledge of how to play and teach them to improve.

 

Damage Meters don't grief, players grief.

[Malefactor]

With the combat log coming, it's simply a matter of time before someone creates a parser with an ingame overlay (much like the one in RIFT prior to them allowing add-ons).

 

As for threat meters, I haven't had (or really heard of) any problems with threat or keeping it. Shouldn't be an issue really, unless you're playing with, well, idiots, you know the type, the "leet dps doodz" that spam attacks and go all out before the tank even touches the mobs, or has problems understanding MMO group basics such as target priority and target focusing.

 

Personally, I don't particularly care either way, I'd have no problems with addons being included or excluded as I have no issues playing with or without them. I do feel that in some cases however, some people tend to grow reliant on them and become unable to "play properly" without them, as I saw on many a patch day in WoW. I don't feel that they cause problems in the community, such as "elitism" or what have you as those things will (and do) exist with or without addons, they are simply tools that people will either use or misuse and not all that difficult to avoid by playing with like-minded people.

[ArmchairMagpie]

It is generally advantageous to address the cons as well because by pointing out the pros only and let the cons brought up in slices by opponents will usually end up in a debate consisting of nothing but endless rebuttals.

 

I have been managing combat logs myself for my guild in WoW and done analyzing since it was actually possible to do so. Even most proponents of that feature are outright wrong when it comes to combat logs.

 

Combat logs if condensed into charts usually end up being a fountain of endless misinterpretations, healers being the ones suffering most of it because alot of people still think healers can be judged by raw output instead of efficiency and ability breakdown. Likewise a plain chart does not take into account someone being on kite duty or something else yet they are usually been judged the same way.

 

There is also other abuse which is that people see them as racetrack ignoring everything else and letting healers and tanks dealing with the downsides of it. It does really create a bad culture because exactly these people are playing right into the hands of those being against such features and there is no better coincidence than being in addition eventually a rightful target for criticism if the meter had been used in fair manner.

 

I think it's a fair thing to offer an option which would hide informations except for yourself, your party/raid leader and officers.

[ChaosKirin]

*downvote*

 

My DPS on WoW was very much in line with everyone else's. However, seeing someone rip into another player for not doing the right amount of DPS just ruined the game for me.

 

As I've said on other threads, if people used meters to help other players, I'd have no problem with them. But they're only used because people want to clear content NOW NOW NOW NOW and don't want to have to take the time to help someone else playing the game.

[Galbatorrix]

Generally the only people that do not want dps meters in game are those that suck at playing their class and want to be carried through content. As long as end game content has enrage timers on bosses, dps meters are needed. End of story.

 

 

Stop sucking:mad:

 

 

 

This guy is why we don't want DPS meters.

[Starglide]

Starglide....I think the overall attitude that comes through in your posts is the perfect example of why many people DONT want the logs as you want them. You may claim to use them in a helpful manner, but your tone comes across as though you would be that ops leader reaming players or kicking players that aren't up to "your standards".

 

I for one think they are a good thing when used correctly and I am FOR an in-game tracking system for dps/threat/heals/combat log information. I use mine lots in WOW as player and raider.

 

That doesn't mean I'm going to rip people who disagree with me by telling them they are idiots, stupid, or not competitive enough to play this game.

 

What in my 'tone' (not sure how you get a tone from text), suggests I want to ream out people not doing what they are supposed to? Really, not matter how objective I try to be you still find something wrong with me defending a way to see what is going on?

 

A: The best encounters came from raid leaders studying combat logs and helping developers improve them

 

B: The best features you see from UIs in current MMOs (such as quest helpers in SWTOR), came from addon developers.

 

C: An open UI and combat log allows for developers to focus on adding content as opposed to fixing things the community could be helping with

 

The list goes on. How can you dispute what I am saying and/or state my tone suggests I want to yell at players? With statements like yours it is hard for me NOT to assume you have no idea what you are talking about. Whether or not you agree with logs or not.

[ferroz]

Nope you are wrong. Generally it is people who want a pleasant experience doing pug runs and not see arguments happening over chat, or douchebaggery happening over the chat.

No, quite a few people who want a pleasant experience doing pug runs and not seeing arguments happening over chat or douchebaggery happening over the chat are fine with full combat logs. Some of them are even highly in favor of that type of logs.

 

That's because combat logs don't create the arguments or douchbaggery. That behavior existed just as commonly in games where people rarely parsed (like early EQ); they just used subjective reasons instead of objective ones (no heals for the ranger, he's worthless damage and it's cheaper to rez him after).

 

Look in WoW I was hardly ever the target of people looking at my numbers and wanting to say something about it, but I have seen so much douchebaggery happen in chat in the group that it is sickening.

I am looking at wow; I haven't except in some fairly extreme circumstances. Example: the shadow priest doing 1k dps when the tanks are doing 4-5k and the other dps are in the 8-15k range. Edited March 6, 2012 by ferroz

[Starglide]

This guy is why we don't want DPS meters.

 

That's the type of guy you want meters for. This way you can use meters to show you are putting up numbers and then state how you don't want the meters in the game.

 

On the flip side, besides being able to see who ISN'T doing what they are supposed to, isn't it nice to having something to SHOW for your hard work and skill? Don't you want to be able to say "I did that and I did it GOOD"?

[WereMops]

Damage Meters don't grief, players grief.

 

Yeah and guns don't kill people, people kill people, why not force everyone to have a gun.

 

I vote No to a global combat log.

 

A self only combat log helps the ones who want to improve themselves but doesn't give any extra ammo to a "griefer player".

Edited March 6, 2012 by WereMops

[Galbatorrix]

Damage Meters don't grief, players grief.

 

 

This I do agree with. I actually love seeing my own DPS and comparing it to others. But these type tool cause players to grief. Plain and simple.

 

 

Again, I'd be all for a "guild DPS meter" that progressive guild could use for Ops, but keep DPS meters out of pugs please.

[Starglide]

No, quite a few people who want a pleasant experience doing pug runs and not seeing arguments happening over chat or douchebaggery happening over the chat are fine with full combat logs. Some of them are even highly in favor of that type of logs.

 

That's because combat logs don't create the arguments or douchbaggery. That behavior existed just as commonly in games where people rarely parsed (like early EQ); they just used subjective reasons instead of objective ones (no heals for the ranger, he's worthless damage and it's cheaper to rez him after).

 

I am looking at wow; I haven't except in some fairly extreme circumstances. Example: the shadow priest doing 1k dps when the tanks are doing 4-5k and the other dps are in the 8-15k range.

 

This.

 

You protesters need to see the flip side of things.

[Rekkx]

WOW stopped being fun due to min/maxers trying to enforce their rule on others.

I just get sick of players arguing stupid stuff like this when the content is being cleared.

I'd rather I keep having a good time where everyone in the group is just having fun.

 

I can guarantee that once the file that saves the encounter data is analysed there will be a 'tool' that parses said info for GL to use when it's released. Hell, I'll even make one myself. It's not that hard.

 

So NO from me too for the same reasons, oh and "vote posts" are pointless. If you want a discussion, make a post and let it lie. There is never a need for unofficial polls.