PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[ferroz]

Not if they want any players. It surprises me you would even try to go down this line of thought in defense of a combat log.

This has nothign to do with defending a combat log... I'm just point out that you could make an MMORPG without a chat system.

 

I think that the original idea for this was something that was on the old EQ Caster's realm forums; I'd look but those were axed a long time ago.

[Vydor_HC]

too harsh. Edited March 8, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Snibb]

First, thanks for the compliment.

 

As to the out of game logs, I'm not sure exactly how they are going to implement it, but in other games I've played with logs and meters done that way it's not been a big deal. The parsers can be quite sophisticated, smooth and seamless with the game. Plus I have total control of how the data is then displayed and metered and I get far more useful information that is tuned to the way I want to see it.

 

On the fly in game is nice, if done right...but can also be a crutch in my view and make the game a bit less challenging. That's how I see it.

 

And I've never once ever asked to see the data of how another player is doing in the game. It's just not me and my play style nor the people I play with. Not to say I don't understand why people do want to see it.

 

Too true, we'll have to wait and see how they're implemented.

I like programming, so a it may be fun to write up some code to parse it, but it remains to be seen if they'll give us enough info to make our own DPS/HPS meters.

For instance if they write to the log in realtime, that's easy, but I can forsee them worrying about performance issues from constantly accessing your HD. If they buffer info and write to the log once every 20 seconds without any sort of timestamp, then things get more tricky.

 

Anyways, thanks for being polite, it is much appreciated.

I should probably do at least one or two productive things before my day's over... later!

[Vydor_HC]

Too true, we'll have to wait and see how they're implemented.

I like programming, so a it may be fun to write up some code to parse it, but it remains to be seen if they'll give us enough info to make our own DPS/HPS meters.

For instance if they write to the log in realtime, that's easy, but I can forsee them worrying about performance issues from constantly accessing your HD. If they buffer info and write to the log once every 20 seconds without any sort of timestamp, then things get more tricky.

 

Anyways, thanks for being polite, it is much appreciated.

I should probably do at least one or two productive things before my day's over... later!

 

Same to you. /salute

[Vydor_HC]

... what? /boggle

 

I really think that you've just misread something...I've gone back several posts and I have no idea what you think I've strawmanned. Punnkin has it right.

 

Nah, I haven't. But I am going to ignore anything you respond to me in the future when you jump into an ongoing conversation and try to drive it off in a direction we are not discussing.

[Pekish]

80% no and 20% yes... and the pool is on the forum where there are less casual players.

 

I don't se why they should upset the 80% of the people (most probabily 90/95% if we would include the casual) to please the 5? 20?%

 

 

I really hope they will not give up to the whiners.

[Snibb]

Not if they want any players. It surprises me you would even try to go down this line of thought in defense of a combat log.

 

Actually, they do make chat optional in this game. You can't turn off general, trade, etc. I tend to make a seperate tab for guild only because of the speed which general pushes guild text off the screen.

I didn't mean to start this whole, chat vs logs arguement. All that I was trying to point out was that you can't remove everything from a game that will cause players grief. The only way to do that is to have a single player game because people cause others grief.

 

Out for real this time heh!

Edited March 8, 2012 by Snibb

[ferroz]

You're quote is

The point is that whether the pros outweigh the cons or vice-versa is a mattter of opinion. I 'd say that in both cases, the pros outweigh the cons... and that the chat system actually has more cons than the log, since it is something that can actually be used to grief people.

I never once said that or claimed otherwise. What I said was the pros of the chat system outweigh the cons of the chat system. That's why the chat issue is not like the log issue. Nothing about cons of the chat system being less than the log.

I didn't say that you did say otherwise...

 

you made a statement about the pros of the chat system outweighing it's cons, and then an assertion that the cons of combat logs outweigh it's pros... I disagreed, . There's no strawman in that. You even agreed with me about that in the next post.

 

 

I responded the way I did because it was in line with the ongoing conversation, which you jumped into and made claims that had nothing to do with what we were discussing.

You responded to Andryah, who was responding to me... if I respond to you turn, that's hardly jumping into a conversation; I was just continuing the same line of discussion that I had been with Andryah

 

So, I ask you, that if you wanna to jump into a conversation, have the courtesy to at least speak to what others are talking about without interjecting strawmen and trying to steer it off in another direction.

I didn't strawman you. I was continuing the topic that I was talking about, that Andryah was responding to. I'm sorry that you feel slighted, but I really have no idea what you're talking about. Edited March 8, 2012 by ferroz

[Blotter]

The arguement may be getting old to you, but it is a true statement is it not?

 

And the two next statements are contradictory... I do feel that people are telling me how I should play. Both sides can be happy here, and I've stated how in other posts.

 

And I also question people who say the way it will be implemented is good enough when they have no plans of using it, or don't like using logs/meters in general. How would you know?

 

When you have a kid in the kindergarten class who likes to hit the other children to express imself and seek attention, do you say "screw it, he hits the other kids anyway...hey kid, here's a bat"? The point is that yes, jerks will be jerks...but we don't need to be giving them tools with which to do a better job of being jerks.

 

And how can both sides be happy? At this opint, the only bone of contention is that the people who want combat logs are demanding that combat logs that can be shared only on a voluntary basis are not enough...while the rest of the peolpe believe it's just fine and are happy it protects their privacy from peolpe they don't trust not to act like total jackholes. The ONLY thing that would apparently satisfy the people who remain upset is for BW to say "fine...you can have real time combat logs that allow you to see everyone else's information whether they want you to or not." THAT is the ONLY thing that the people complaining about BW's compromise are not getting and they're furious about it. I saw they need to remain furious. Screw 'em. They got 99% of what they wanted and what they got satisfies the needs they claim they had. They made a concenssion just like the people who thought there shoudl be no combat logs whatsoever had to make a concession, but the latter aren't still raging about anything and are happy withthe compromise. So what is there still to comrpomise on? The only thing left would make it no longer a compromise at all but rather "one side gets what it wants...sorry, the rest of you are screwed."

Edited March 8, 2012 by Blotter

[ferroz]

Nah, I haven't.

Ferroz: I'd say that in both cases, the pros outweigh the cons...

Vydor: And on a side, it boggles my mind that you think the cons of chat are greater then its pros.

 

I think it's pretty clear that you misread something there.

 

But I am going to ignore anything you respond to me in the future when you jump into an ongoing conversation and try to drive it off in a direction we are not discussing.

• ScarletBlaze posted "...I dislike anyone using anything that can make another player feel bad and even more so when she's a good friend...."
  
• Snibb responded ScarletBlaze
  
• ScarletBlaze responded to snibb
  
• I respondedto scarletblaze
  
• Andryah responded me
  
• You responded to Andryah
  
• I responded to you.
  

 

That's hardly qualifies as "jump[ing] into an ongoing conversation and try to drive it off in a direction we are not discussing" ... I continued the line of discussion I had with Andryah.

 

Edit: added a few more layers, back to the root of this line of discussion. That line of discussion is about the chat system, and my discussion was not driving it off into a different direction... it was in line with Snibb's original response.

Edited March 8, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

When you have a kid in the kindergarten class who likes to hit the other children to express imself and seek attention, do you say "screw it, he hits the other kids anyway...hey kid, here's a bat"? The point is that yes, jerks will be jerks...but we don't need to be giving them tools with which to do a better job of being jerks.

 

Bad analogy. If someone griefs someone about their dps, the chat system is the piece that is analogous to the bat.

 

There's nothing in your example that's analogous to the combat log; it's just information. If you were talking older kids, you could liken it to an anatomy textbook.

[ferroz]

Actually, they do make chat optional in this game. You can't turn off general, trade, etc. I tend to make a seperate tab for guild only because of the speed which general pushes guild text off the screen.

Yeah, I havea friend who takes this one step further: he closes out his chat and just uses his friend's ventrillo.

[Blotter]

Bad analogy. If someone griefs someone about their dps, the chat system is the piece that is analogous to the bat.

 

There's nothing in your example that's analogous to the combat log; it's just information. If you were talking older kids, you could liken it to an anatomy textbook.

 

No, the tool that gave them the information in the first place can also be the "bat." If they didn't have the tool, i.e., the publicized combat log, with which to get the info, they couldn't then use the info as yet another tool to blugeon someone by using yet another tool, the chat interface, to talk smack about them. I mean, what do we need to do, go step by little step or can yuo simply admit that the meter is a tool and they will use it as a means of demeaning and bludgeoning people...which they will...which makes the analogy perfectly fine.

[Andryah]

Bad analogy. If someone griefs someone about their dps, the chat system is the piece that is analogous to the bat.

 

No, the chat system is where it happens (ie the location of the beating), public log files are the "bat" that they use.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Andryah

[Blotter]

No, the chat system is where it happens (ie the location of the beating), public log files are the "bat" that they use.

 

Oh no wait, we have to torture the simple analogy further...it's really the english or other language that they used to demean the person that is the bat, so there needs to be no more talking! Seriously, what a ridiculous argument against a perfectly fine analogy.

[ferroz]

No, the chat system is where it happens (ie the location of the beating), public log files are the "bat" that they use.

No absolutely not. The combat log is sitting there on the file system doing nothing.

 

If you're going to call the chat system the place where it happens, then the words typed into the chat system are the bat; they're the pieces that cut.

 

But I still think the chat system itself is more analogous to the bat; it's the tool that's used by the tool.

Edited March 8, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

Seriously, what a ridiculous argument against a perfectly fine analogy.

No, it's a pretty terrible analogy, and this forums is famous for bad analogies.

 

The bat is the thing that the person uses to hurt someone. The chat system is the thing that the person uses to hurt someone.

 

the combat log is only information; it's the anatomy textbook at best.

[Blotter]

How about this instead: Little Jimmy, the kindergarten bully, likes to insult the other kids as a way of establishing his perceived dominance and help himself inflate his ego as a means of helping with what is actually low self-esteem. What happens when the teacher pulls Little Jimmy aside and lets him look at Retarded Bobby's and Drooling Sue's report cards, which show they will likely be held back and not go on to 1st grade?

 

And yes, I'm using these age/grade levels beacuse thewhole thign is so freekin childish to begin with. BW dealt you a compromise to protect the best interests of the community, instead of just giving you what you DEMANDED like self-entitled brats. Get over it.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Blotter

[ferroz]

How about this instead: Little Jimmy, the kindergarten bully, likes to insult the other kids as a way of establishing his perceived dominance and help himself inflate his ego as a means of helping with what is actually low self-esteem. What happens when the teacher gives Little Jimmy reports cards for Retarded Bobby and Drooling Sue, who will likely be held back and not go on to 1st grade?

 

And yes, I'm using these age/grade levels beacuse thewhole thign is so freekin childish to begin with. BW dealt you a compromise to protect the best interests of the community, instead of just giving you what you DEMANDED like self-entitled brats. Get over it.

Nah, we're not talking about a system where someone accidentally gives you information you're not supposed to have; if we have a combat log, then we're talking a system where that's public information*.

 

So, still in the kindergarten idiom:

The combat log is the poster on the wall that has everyone's gold stars. Jimmy makes fun of bobby and sue because they don't have as many as he does.

 

The combat log is the tape of the winter show, and jimmy makes fun of bobby and sue because they turned the wrong way when they did the bridge in frosty the snowman.

 

The combat log is the box score at the little league game, and jimmy makes fun of bobby because he didn't score as many points as jimmy.

 

edit: * Certainly, there are people who don't want that to be public information, but in the games where a combat log exists, it's public info; so the fact that some people don't want it to be public is not really relevant to this particular analogy.

Edited March 8, 2012 by ferroz

[Squatdog_nz]

And made up facts are nothing but made up facts.

 

You are clearly unaware of the hilarious contradiction contained in that sentence.

 

 

You ARE the vocal minority. Look at you endlessly spamming the thread with gibberish and denial rather than have a functioning universal combat log in the game.

[Punnkin]

Why are the people opposed to logs acting like they will be FORCED to use them and FORCED to group with people who DO like to analyze them? If that isn't how you want to play, then don't. Most likely, you won't cross paths too often, so why is it such a big deal if other people want to enhance their game in such a way?

[Vydor_HC]

I didn't say that you did say otherwise...

 

you made a statement about the pros of the chat system outweighing it's cons, and then an assertion that the cons of combat logs outweigh it's pros... I disagreed, . There's no strawman in that. You even agreed with me about that in the next post.

 

 

You responded to Andryah, who was responding to me... if I respond to you turn, that's hardly jumping into a conversation; I was just continuing the same line of discussion that I had been with Andryah

 

I didn't strawman you. I was continuing the topic that I was talking about, that Andryah was responding to. I'm sorry that you feel slighted, but I really have no idea what you're talking about.

 

You interjected with

 

and that the chat system actually has more cons than the log, since it is something that can actually be used to grief people.

 

No one arguing that, which is why I responded the way I did. I assumed since no one made that argument you meant the cons of the chat system outweigh the pros more than the cons of the log system outweigh the pros.

 

I agreed with you on the matter of opinion, but never said anything along the lines of what you claimed after.

[ferroz]

Why are the people opposed to logs acting like they will be FORCED to use them and FORCED to group with people who DO like to analyze them? If that isn't how you want to play, then don't. Most likely, you won't cross paths too often, so why is it such a big deal if other people want to enhance their game in such a way?

I'm never really clear on that myself.

 

I like the fact that meters make jerks more obvious. It makes them easier to avoid.

 

I liked gearscore for the same reason... if I was pugging and they asked for my gearscore and weren't happy with "meh, I never pay attention to that crap" then I didn't want to run with them anyway.

[Blotter]

Nah, we're not talking about a system where someone accidentally gives you information you're not supposed to have; if we have a combat log, then we're talking a system where that's public information*.

 

So, still in the kindergarten idiom:

The combat log is the poster on the wall that has everyone's gold stars. Jimmy makes fun of bobby and sue because they don't have as many as he does.

 

The combat log is the tape of the winter show, and jimmy makes fun of bobby and sue because they turned the wrong way when they did the bridge in frosty the snowman.

 

The combat log is the box score at the little league game, and jimmy makes fun of bobby because he didn't score as many points as jimmy.

 

edit: * Certainly, there are people who don't want that to be public information, but in the games where a combat log exists, it's public info; so the fact that some people don't want it to be public is not really relevant to this particular analogy.

 

You missed the point. The analogy is to illustrate what kids like LIttle Jimmy do with information similar to what a public combat log provides...i.e., bully other players (i.e., "fellow classmates"). Keeping private avoids that. it's the difference between a private or public recital in your "performance" example. Trying to claim that my analogy was meant to illustrate something else, by defining "combat log' to mean only one thing, just so you can say that it doesn't illustrate that something else...that's called a straw man argument. I wasn't talking about "combat logs" as you choose to narrowly define them...I was talking about the information they would provide if forced to be public as opposed to the private/personal ones BW has decided on.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Blotter

[Sqyre]

So where do I vote at?