PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Starglide]

I read it and my point stands.

 

They don't have logs and they have found other ways to analyze the data and by their own admission 'figure stuff out'. That's how all of these games used to be before people started requiring the Devs to tell them exactly what is happening in painful detail.

 

Back in the early days of these games (I remember EQ1 specifically) they didn't give you jack for numbers AND the Devs stood firm telling the player community that supplying that information would just turn it into a math game. They eventually broke down and provided that information.. and guess what? They were 100 percent correct on what would happen.

 

You don't NEED to know everything that is happening to effectively play the game. You aren't a better player because you know it than anyone else that doesn't know it - you are better informed but you aren't really 'playing' the game anymore anyway... you are playing the numbers.

 

MMOs are based on mathematics covered in the aesthetics of its platform. Optimization of your character based on mathematics will in fact allow you perform better. Even if you play the game perfectly, if you're more educated then the next, your performance will display as such.

 

Nevertheless, I think this is an excellent point defending the exclusion of combat logs. I am adding this to the OP. It does kind of turn the game into a math game, but I like knowing I am optimized. There are a lot of us that actually enjoy solving these math problems and theory crafting. I understand what you are saying, but if we choose to play this way, why shouldn't we be allowed to?

Edited March 8, 2012 by Starglide

[ferroz]

Why can't people think in terms of something that will make both sides happy?

Because one side wants something and the other wants them to not have it... so it's not possible for both sides to be happy.

 

 

Who programs stuff to be a PITA?

Programmers.

 

A better question is "Who designs stuff to be a PITA?" and that'd be bad designers. They might be the same people as the programmers, but often aren't

[Blotter]

Wrong. Being able to figure it out before the encounter makes you good at math. Being able to then execute it, accounting for changes presented by the encounter and your fellow players, makes you a good player. You don't play in a vacuum in MMOs. If you want the most out of your character, then you need to understand what the other people are doing as well. The marauder just died. Did that aoe one shot him, or did I not notice he took some damage prior to the hit? In a situation like that, the healer needs to see the OTHER person's logs.

 

Wrong. Being able to learn from trial and error by repeating the content/encounter over and over until you get it right....THAT makes you a good player. It's how life works. Nobody gets a cheat sheet and then gets to claim they "earned" bragging rights. NOBODY. As it is, BW made a compromise so yuo can look at it AFTER the encounter in order to prepare for next time...just like, again, in real life when, for example, professional athletes watch tape after a game. You'll be perfectly able to understand what happened and what went wrong, but what you won't be able to do is use it as a real time cheat sheet. Claiming that what BW is implementing won't give you the information you claim you need...that's bogus. The only difference is WHEN you'll be able to access it and you shouldn't "need" it in real time.

 

If you're actually any good, then play the game to learn the game.

 

If your performance is worse than a donkey show, then play with spreadsheet to learn the game.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Blotter

[ProfessorWalsh]

I read it and my point stands.

 

They don't have logs and they have found other ways to analyze the data and by their own admission 'figure stuff out'. That's how all of these games used to be before people started requiring the Devs to tell them exactly what is happening in painful detail.

 

Back in the early days of these games (I remember EQ1 specifically) they didn't give you jack for numbers AND the Devs stood firm telling the player community that supplying that information would just turn it into a math game. They eventually broke down and provided that information.. and guess what? They were 100 percent correct on what would happen.

 

You don't NEED to know everything that is happening to effectively play the game. You aren't a better player because you know it than anyone else that doesn't know it - you are better informed but you aren't really 'playing' the game anymore anyway... you are playing the numbers.

 

I agree with everything here.

 

EverQuest was fun until the devs caved. Then there were no unique specs. There was no mystery anymore. People used the same moves in the same sequence and wore the same gear. Where once you would see a particular person who was seemingly an unstoppable juggernaut you would instead see someone going:

 

"Oh yeah, he's wearing this, this, and this, and is using this, this, and this ability in this, this, this, and this sequence."

 

I don't want to group with people who are "all about the numbers" and who will expect me to optimize.

 

I do optimize, but I do it the old fashioned way, I watch, I observe, and I try new things out.

[Snibb]

Oh please such a smart response.

 

For one general chat on my server is quite respectful so that rarely happens.

 

Two my guild members don't yell or make another person feel bad. If they have a problem with a quest, we go help them without judging them.

 

Three group chat are based on the people you group with so that doesn't happen either.

 

Don't you roll your eyes at me lol... the disrespect of people now-a-days.

 

So basically, you are saying, you don't group or join a guild with people who mis-use chat?

Hmm... sounds sort of like something I said earlier...

You do get where I'm going with this right?

[ScarletBlaze]

Super secret info - the type of people who can see your logs is also based on who you group with. You just hurt your own argument with that last one.

 

Actually not the way bioware is doing the combat logs. The combat logs are private so unless they want to share the logs they don't have to.

[Frezzyisfuzzy]

Hey Starglide, I'm definitely with you on this issue, but it looks like we're kinda outnumbered. So you might think about quoting viable compromises in your OP instead of just arguments that are strictly pro or con.

 

The ones I've seen so far are to make public logs a raid/group leader option, make it a vote system, or make it a personal toggle.

[ferroz]

Oh please such a smart response.

 

For one general chat on my server is quite respectful so that rarely happens.

No, I'd say that in 100% of the times that people are griefed in game about their dps, it's done using the chat system. Even most of the time that people are griefed about non-dps things it's done using the chat system

 

So if your goal is to remove the tools that people use to grief each other, the chat system should be your first target; in wow, it's used more often than the dps meters are.

[Drewser]

Why can't people think in terms of something that will make both sides happy?

 

That is exactly what Bioware has tried to do. Except we learned once again, no matter what developer does, they can't make every one happy.

 

I have seen all these things argued on this board:

 

I got to 50 too fast.

It takes too long to level.

The FPs after BT are too hard.

The FPs in this game are too easy.

It takes to long to get to some quests.

The worlds are too small.

Skills and speeders are too expensive.

This is the easiest MMO ever to make money.

I want a full combat log so I can see everything.

I don't want a full combat log because idiots use it for harassment.

 

I could go on but there is simply no winning with everyone.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Drewser

[Andryah]

Quick example: you can't see what debuffs have been applied to the target by other people.

 

You are speculating here....you don't know that to be true.

 

If a raid group all capture logs of a boss fight and then upload them to their guild to be consolidated and parsed (all of which can be done programatically), then you see the composite results of everything everyone in the raid did in the boss fight.

 

Sure, some clever person on the internet will need to code up a web app that does all the grunt work to consolidate, parse, and display the neat charts and graps.....but hey there are no shortage of these wizards in the MMO world. You can bet that the theorycrafters know where and how to tap a code expert to gen up exactly what they need, and they will probably make it a 3rd party app freely available to everyone who has an interest in using it.

 

And by the way, 99% of all theorycrafting in MMOs is done off-line anyway, mulling through encounter results and building spreadsheets on skills, damages, gear stats, etc. etc. Therorycrafting is not a real time science, it is a science of analytics of captured streams of data, and testing theories against the data.

[Blotter]

Why can't people think in terms of something that will make both sides happy?

 

That's what BW is implementing...a compromise. Tha's not good enough for the people who want to be able to spy in real time on other peoples' stats and numbers.

 

Funny though...I haven't seen ANY threads whining about the opposite...that the compromise BW offered is too much and shouldn't be implemented because there shouldn't be any combat logs whatsoever. Generally, the people who didn't want them to ruin the game are pleased that they don't have to share their info if they don't want to and are just as happy that others will get to look at the info after their raids to learn from it...m.ay even participate in those kinds of things with people they trust not to be dbags.

 

So you tell me. Who is not thinking in terms of compromise? Who? Who is demanding "my way or the high way" here? Both sides have ostensibly received what they wanted and also made some concessions, but for one side, it's still not good enough. Which one is that and why?

Edited March 8, 2012 by Blotter

[Frezzyisfuzzy]

Actually not the way bioware is doing the combat logs. The combat logs are private so unless they want to share the logs they don't have to.

 

I meant if they implement public logs, which is what you're arguing against. And you defended the existence of chat by saying you can just avoid people who abuse it. By that logic, the argument of people can abuse public combat logs goes out the window because you can just as easily avoid those people.

[ScarletBlaze]

Don't you roll your eyes at me lol... the disrespect of people now-a-days.

 

So basically, you are saying, you don't group or join a guild with people who mis-use chat?

Hmm... sounds sort of like something I said earlier...

You do get where I'm going with this right?

 

Actually why should I join a guild when I have one? Makes sense huh? And I think most people who join a guild would like to have a polite and nice guild also so I don't think that is very difficult to understand.

 

I don't have a problem with combat logs the way bioware is doing them since it is a personal log and if they dont want to share it they don't have to.

[Vydor_HC]

Why can't people think in terms of something that will make both sides happy?

All that I see here is, "my play style is valid so that's how it should be" while the other side basically says the same thing.

Guess what, there are people who enjoy using dps meters, and there are people who enjoy the game without them. The way I see it, making them able to be toggled lets people who don't want to use them, do so. If people want to use them, then they turn them on. If you have a group who requires them, chances are you don't want to group with them if you don't like meters. There will be performance expectations in that group.

 

The round about way logs are being implemented in 1.2 seems like they will be a PITA to use, and not a very good solution for the people who enjoy them. Who programs stuff to be a PITA?

 

PS. Just as we don't have the right to tell you how to play/enjoy the game, the same goes for you telling us that we don't have the right to want dps meters/combat logs etc, that are easy to use (which is how we like to play, and what we enjoy.)

 

The implemenation is something that makes the majority happy. The staunch people on the margins that want it all or nothing are the ones that will not be happy.

[Andryah]

No, I'd say that in 100% of the times that people are griefed in game about their dps, it's done using the chat system. Even most of the time that people are griefed about non-dps things it's done using the chat system

 

So if your goal is to remove the tools that people use to grief each other, the chat system should be your first target; in wow, it's used more often than the dps meters are.

 

LOL..... yes, the chat channel is where the grief based communication takes place. HOWEVER, what enables them to grief is their ability to do so is dependent on them having logged what the person was doing.

 

IT'S NO THEIR METHOD OF COMMUNICATIONS, IT'S WHAT THEY ARE COMMUNICATING and how they obtained it.

[Ossos]

Why does a combat log matter in this game?! I mean really, why does it matter? The encounters are NOT difficult. Even the Nightmare Encounters are easy. So why does it matter, no one is looking that hard because your crappy dps isn't an issue.

 

It would be like a NASCAR game requiring a mod to see how often players turn right.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Ossos

[Andryah]

That's what BW is implementing...a compromise. Tha's not good enough for the people who want to be able to spy in real time on other peoples' stats and numbers.

 

Funny though...I haven't seen ANY threads whining about the opposite...that the compromise BW offered is too much and shouldn't be implemented because there shouldn't be any combat logs whatsoever. Generally, the people who didn't want them to ruin the game are pleased that they don't have to share their info if they don't want to and are just as happy that others will get to look at the info after their raids to learn from it...m.ay even participate in those kinds of things with people they trust not to be dbags.

 

So you tell me. Who is not thinking in terms of compromise? Who? Who is demanding "my way or the high way" here? Both sides have ostensibly received what they wanted and also made some concessions, but for one side, it's still not good enough. Which one is that and why?

 

Exactly!

[Wolftailxx]

If you actually understand your character, read up on the best stats and rotations then you shouldn't be embarrassed about combat logs being in game.

 

If you suck and just wanna look at how cool your guy looks as he's swinging his light saber, and have the guild wonder what's going on, while you wipe and wipe again and again, then I can see why you wouldn't want combat logs.

[Loendar]

Exactly. Also, without the use of combat logs, it is incredibly difficult for developers to institute more difficult content due to the fact that the reason why most WoW encounters can have so many mechanics is because of the availability of logs. Analyzing logs allows for more mechanics since we can see what is going on via numbers as opposed to guessing through all the mayhem.

 

Combat logs != harder encounters.

 

The Devs have stated how they want you to approach their encounters: on-screen actions, prompts, notification text. They want you to pay attention to the GAME not the numbers.

 

How is an encounter harder when the log is actually telling you exactly what happened, when and how often?

 

You folks really need to stop using the concept that encounters will be too easy without combat logs as a pillar of your argument.

[ScarletBlaze]

I meant if they implement public logs, which is what you're arguing against. And you defended the existence of chat by saying you can just avoid people who abuse it. By that logic, the argument of people can abuse public combat logs goes out the window because you can just as easily avoid those people.

 

Actually for the most part that can be true but there are times someone you grouped with before can become a jerk when combat logs become public knowledge. For some people (I didn't say all) you give them a tool they can use and something happens with them, they decide they have the power to hurt someone.

 

Does that mean everyone, no, but allowing the ablility to hurt someone with mean and hateful comments is wrong. Bioware is taking steps to ensure this does't happen.

[Blotter]

The implemenation is something that makes the majority happy. The staunch people on the margins that want it all or nothing are the ones that will not be happy.

 

I gotta say, not many who expressed concerns about harrassment, elitism, etc., are upset with this compromise. Everyone gets their own data. Nobody gets to spy on YOUR data. Raids and guilds and friends can share their data. The only thing missing that people are comlpaining about is that, because peoples' logs are respected as private, there won't be a real time combat log/dps meter thing for raids. To me, that sounds like only one sides' extreme is dissatisfied and still making demands. They're not gimped by the way way BW chose to split the baby, but they're irate that they're not going to get the full crutch they've been trained to need when playing these games, just a walking stick.

[Andryah]

If you actually understand your character, read up on the best stats and rotations then you shouldn't be embarrassed about combat logs being in game.

 

If you suck and just wanna look at how cool your guy looks as he's swinging his light saber, and have the guild wonder what's going on, while you wipe and wipe again and again, then I can see why you wouldn't want combat logs.

 

Nice passive agressive attack toward complete strangers there Wolftailxx.

 

Also, totally off topic from the discusion points of this thread.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Andryah

[Vydor_HC]

LOL..... yes, the chat channel is where the grief based communication takes place. HOWEVER, what enables them to grief is their ability to do so is dependent on them having logged what the person was doing.

 

IT'S NO THEIR METHOD OF COMMUNICATIONS, IT'S WHAT THEY ARE COMMUNICATING and how they obtained it.

 

The game would not be much without in game chat. For that, the pros of having a chat tool far out weigh the cons. I cannot believe people are actually trying to link the two. With group public logs, it's the opposite, the cons weigh the pros. Which is why Bioware is delivering the logs as they proposed.

[Snibb]

The implemenation is something that makes the majority happy. The staunch people on the margins that want it all or nothing are the ones that will not be happy.

 

I guess it's too much to ask for something that is easy to use.

Heck I'd be happy with in game personal only metrics... and if someone really want's to get crazy about it, you can send them a screen shot.

Out of game metrics is a seriously clunky way to do things, and makes it very difficult for users. Please put yourself into anothers shoes. If something you liked to use frequently required you to alt-tab out every time you wanted to use it... would you consider that to be a good implimentation? There could be a workaround if mods were available, but they are not.

Also, why would it be any skin off your back if the metric was available in game... (and not shareable?) That's my main beef with it as it stands. I can just punch in chat if I'm grouping with guildies... and if someone calls BS, I have printscreen.

[Vydor_HC]

I gotta say, not many who expressed concerns about harrassment, elitism, etc., are upset with this compromise. Everyone gets their own data. Nobody gets to spy on YOUR data. Raids and guilds and friends can share their data. The only thing missing that people are comlpaining about is that, because peoples' logs are respected as private, there won't be a real time combat log/dps meter thing for raids. To me, that sounds like only one sides' extreme is dissatisfied and still making demands. They're not gimped by the way way BW chose to split the baby, but they're irate that they're not going to get the full crutch they've been trained to need when playing these games, just a walking stick.

 

Yeah, I haven't seen many that want nothing, but I am sure they are out there. I for one do not mind how it is right now at all, but I'm not totally against logs.