PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[patchew]

oh gods no. addons ruined the fun of wow, itll kill this dead too. NO

[Andryah]

They do say 'downloadable' and maybe it is - but that seems like an odd way to do it.

 

If we follow the Rift approach for a minute to explore this...... I think they meant to say "uploadable". In Rift, you as the user get to decide if you want combat logging or not. If you do, you select that in game and it then maintains log file. You can then upload that file anywhere you like, or load it into an application to parse it, etc. etc.

 

The only thing not clear yet is if you will be able to pase the log file in real time or not. If the log file resides on your computer, then by definition you can parse it in real time using an application like ACT.

 

Now, in Rift they allowed 3rd party apis to overlay your UI so you could actually look at ACT data while playing the game, but it was not that useful compared to the graphical analytics ACT gives you if you alt-tab to ACT from the game client.

 

Combat log + ACT + A Target (target dummy, target mob, target boss, etc) and you had the abiltiy to analyze your performance in depth. Unfortunately, you could also analyze everyone elses performance in depth without their consent.

 

The crux of the issue here is logging and analyzing other peoples combat information without their consent. That IS THE CORE ISSUE. And Bioware has simply chosen a path that puts consent in the hands of the person doing the damage. They can share the information with anyone they choose to. Conversely, nobody can see and review their information without their consent. It's the mature approach to a real problem of immaturity (ie: abusing others with data) on the part of some users inside MMOs.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Andryah

[Stupiddrummer]

You make good points, those calling for real-time combat logs seem to assume that everyone wants to discuss the game mechanics while playing. Some players just want to run the missions and analyze later while still others don't want to break their story-oriented play down to numbers at all. Those numbers will be available soon but, largely behind the scenes where many players prefer them.

 

you people only think it's a good idea because you're not going to be sifting through output text files.

 

Why not just give us real time numbers? It's not like every time i level up, i have to alt-tab to check a text file to see how many hit points my character increased.

 

This game is a WoW clone that doesn't understand why what WoW does works.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Vydor_HC]

If it's writing real time to the hard drive, then you would just share that file... you wouldn't need to download a special file to do so. A file that is written directly to your computer isn't downloadable... it's not even downloaded. It's just written to your computer.

 

Add in: they've made comments in the past about the combat log existing already server side, and that it was cut from the client for performance reasons. That statement makes 0 sense if the info is already available to the game client. It's quite possible that this means that the detailed info doesn't get transferred to the client, so what they're going to add is something that queries the existing server combat log, filters it in some way, and then spits out a log file based on time frame you give it.

 

I'm not saying this this definitely the case... just that I think we should wait until they clarify it a bit more before assuming that people are going to be able to parse it in real time.

 

One additional note: even if the log file is being written directly on your machine, you may not be able to parse it in real time: If they use mandatory file locking, you wouldn't be able to open it for reading while logging is enabled. I'd say that'd be bad programming, but if their goal is to prevent people from using it while they are playing, they might do that intentionally.

 

-nods-

 

Yup. There could always be issues with the implementation. It's speculation on all of our parts, however, I really see no reason to think they will implement it as you suggest.

 

edit: I know you like to parse out words and their meanings, we've argued before about the word "your" and what it mean to the log topic. You argued that there was no way we could determine if that meant personal logs only, I argued it did cuz that was the simplest explanation.

 

I think the same thing applies here, they will make a log, display it in chat and allow you to write it to disk that can be downloaded to other sites. Simple as that.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Andryah]

you people only think it's a good idea because you're not going to be sifting through output text files.

 

The reason combat parser applications exist is to take that text and put it automatically into nice colorful pictures for you to review.

 

You need never look at the actual log file, ever. This is not DAOC circa 2000 here.

[Stupiddrummer]

The biggest issue to me, is that if Bioware doesn't understand the value of combat logs, combat metrics, and real time feedback, then there is probably a lot of things about MMOs they do not understand.

 

Like voice acting? cuz my biggest complaint about WoW is definitely the voice acting. MAN! Bioware sure gets MMOs!

[ferroz]

You are correct when you previously stated that we don't actually know what they mean. They do say 'downloadable' and maybe it is - but that seems like an odd way to do it. The amount of additional overhead they would have to put in place just to store that information server-side until requested for everyone playing the game would seem to be prohibitive.

They said somewhere that they are already storing that server side. Most MMO's do, in fact, so that's not an additional overhead. Blizzard and SOE have both made comments referring to them.

 

Honestly, I can't see a scenario where they are already sending that detailed info to the client where the combat log is a performance hit... so if they cut it for performance (and I did see that somewhere here on the forums) then I really can see that they may be pulling the detailed logs from the server one.

 

Since they implied that they're not sending that full detail info the game client (for performance), they may just be sending batched hp changes, not the detailed info.

[Stupiddrummer]

The reason combat parser applications exist is to take that text and put it automatically into nice colorful pictures for you to review.

 

You need never look at the actual log file, ever. This is not DAOC circa 2000 here.

 

So you think it makes sense to add a tool into the game...that you cannot use in the game?

[ferroz]

Like voice acting? cuz my biggest complaint about WoW is definitely the voice acting. MAN! Bioware sure gets MMOs!

Eh, that's part of their schtick.

 

there's a lot that they don't get about MMO's, but the fact that they've made the voice acting thing part of their niche isn't one of them.

[ferroz]

Now, in Rift they allowed 3rd party apis to overlay your UI

You can do that in tor as well (mumble overlay works fine)

[Stupiddrummer]

Eh, that's part of their schtick.

 

there's a lot that they don't get about MMO's, but the fact that they've made the voice acting thing part of their niche isn't one of them.

 

it shows they dont understand the amount of time each player puts in the game.

 

After a certain amount of time, hearing your protocal droid spout one of his 5 lines is going to get annoying. And after even more time, you're going to forget that characters are speaking in the first place.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Matte_Black]

you people only think it's a good idea because you're not going to be sifting through output text files.

 

Why not just give us real time numbers? It's not like every time i level up, i have to alt-tab to check a text file to see how many hit points my character increased.

 

This game is a WoW clone that doesn't understand why what WoW does works.

 

I'll occasionally use some tool that will no doubt be available out there to sift through the data if, I feel I have fallen off the output curve. If there is a percieved problem, I'll investigate but, otherwise, the standard monitor view of the game and success/failure is all I feel I need to enjoy the game.

 

I'd say it an MMO looking to offer a more story-based and personally scaled experience than the competition and gaminess that has been the norm in many MMOs and notably WoW. Maybe it does some similar things but, it appears aimed more at entertainment than bench-racing and optimization.

[Vydor_HC]

The biggest issue to me, is that if Bioware doesn't understand the value of combat logs, combat metrics, and real time feedback, then there is probably a lot of things about MMOs they do not understand.

 

Like voice acting? cuz my biggest complaint about WoW is definitely the voice acting. MAN! Bioware sure gets MMOs!

 

-nods-

 

It's not a good feeling when the developers have a different view than you do. I've been in that boat a lot when it comes to cross server stuff and other hot topics.

[Cryalis]

Done the WoW thing for 6 years, I have chosen a new path. Don't want to look back. No crutches.......I mean meters.

[Kthx]

It's not a good feeling when the developers have a different view than you do. I've been in that boat a lot when it comes to cross server stuff and other hot topics.

 

The player base here has spoken against combat logs, and the devs agree. Isn't the issue then that you don't agree with other players?

[GalacticKegger]

From http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=344328

 

If you're invoking the Guild Summit, let's be a bit more precise about what we've said:

 

A) Macros are a possibility in the future. We don't hate them.

 

B) I am opposed to macros that automate combat (shouldn't be a surprise). I'd rather take tedious things (such as sprint turning off after death) and modify the design than to rely on people to create macros to deal with these things - which creates unnecessary barriers of entry in my opinion.

 

C) We don't consider interface improvements and quality of life features (e.g. mouse over healing) to be macros (so 2 does not apply)

 

D) Macros for social behaviors, etc are definitely a possibility too.

[Stupiddrummer]

-nods-

 

It's not a good feeling when the developers have a different view than you do. I've been in that boat a lot when it comes to cross server stuff and other hot topics.

 

it's also not a good feeling when developers have less experience playing an MMO than you

 

I'm just butt-hurt, cuz when i look at the game now, the only thing that keeps me playing is that it is still Star Wars. I like Star Wars so much that i am willing to put up with all this crap.

 

And after I've stopped playing this game, i think i will come out liking star wars less than when i started.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Vydor_HC]

The player base here has spoken against combat logs, and the devs agree. Isn't the issue then that you don't agree with other players?

 

Please read the comments in context. I have no problems with a developers choice, if it effects me enough I move on and have done so in a number of games. My statement was that it's just not a good feeling when it happens.

 

edit: On this issue, I actually support their decision.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Vydor_HC]

it's also not a good feeling when developers have less experience playing an MMO than you

 

I'm just butt-hurt, cuz when i look at the game now, the only thing that keeps me playing is that it is still Star Wars. I like Star Wars so much that i am willing to put up with all this crap.

 

And after I've stopped playing this game, i think i will come out liking star wars less than when i started.

 

Exactly. While I don't share your view on this topic, I can definitely share you view about being upset.

[Matte_Black]

Eh, that's part of their schtick.

 

there's a lot that they don't get about MMO's, but the fact that they've made the voice acting thing part of their niche isn't one of them.

 

You seem to be missing that they did not make or intend to make what you define as an MMO. SWTOR is what gets made when BioWare starts with a clean sheet and tries to designn an MMO and then uses existing methods to make the MMO they would make.

 

You want to play a WoW-like playstyle in a different type of game. BioWare chose not to go head to head for the type of player wanting that expererience. This game is more about experienceing a story than it is accomplishment.

[Loendar]

They said somewhere that they are already storing that server side. Most MMO's do, in fact, so that's not an additional overhead. Blizzard and SOE have both made comments referring to them.

 

Honestly, I can't see a scenario where they are already sending that detailed info to the client where the combat log is a performance hit... so if they cut it for performance (and I did see that somewhere here on the forums) then I really can see that they may be pulling the detailed logs from the server one.

 

Since they implied that they're not sending that full detail info the game client (for performance), they may just be sending batched hp changes, not the detailed info.

 

Agreed. Every major MMO (including this one) stores every action taken into their DB for whatever future reporting they might want to make on that data. I understand that and agree that it is happening here as well, so maybe my comment about the overhead wasn't exactly what I meant to imply.

 

It's more that I don't see them running SQL (or Oracle) queries against their database every time I ask for MY data as being an overly efficient way to approach this. Assuming you take the path of least resistance you would simply stream the data to a log file as it happens and their comment about 'download' is just a poorly chosen phrasing.

[ferroz]

You seem to be missing that they did not make or intend to make what you define as an MMO.

Sure they did.

 

SWTOR is what gets made when BioWare starts with a clean sheet and tries to designn an MMO and then uses existing methods to make the MMO they would make.

Uh, no... it's got a lot of features that are directly cobbled from other MMO's. You are delusional if you think they started from a clean sheet.

 

You want to play a WoW-like playstyle in a different type of game.

If that was my desire, then I would have gotten what I wanted, since I do play a wow-like playstyle, with lightsabers and blasters. (hint: it's not, but I'm ok with that)

[Taroen]

I'm not forcing anything on him - I don't work for Bioware and I didn't make this decision.

 

I happen to support their decision but you are placing your venom on the wrong party.

 

Of course - if he/you are given exactly what YOU are asking for then you are automatically able to impose your 'l33t-ness' on me without any input from me. Right now, with the impending implementation, I can decide to allow you to have my log and parse it.

 

This implementation allows for me to choose (and you to choose, and your raid leader to mandate it to their members and choose) - your implementation preference removes the choice.

 

Exactly how would "my" implemation process remove any choice at all..?

 

You still have the right to choose who you group with and what tools you use.

[Stupiddrummer]

You seem to be missing that they did not make or intend to make what you define as an MMO. SWTOR is what gets made when BioWare starts with a clean sheet and tries to designn an MMO and then uses existing methods to make the MMO they would make.

 

You want to play a WoW-like playstyle in a different type of game. BioWare chose not to go head to head for the type of player wanting that expererience. This game is more about experienceing a story than it is accomplishment.

 

If that's the case i have no idea what im paying $15 a month for. I pay $15 a month for an MMO, if it's not what it's advertising then I'm being swindled.

[Voryon]

No thanks, what i would rather have is a group dps meter not individual