PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Iite]

BIG NO on combat logs.

[ferroz]

Universal combat logs don't make any sense and are a holdover from text MUDs.

they make plenty of sense. Some people like to analyze data, with it's full context.

 

Why did ability A hit for X damage this time, and only Y damage this other time? Oh, it's because Bob had just hit it with debuff B right before X.

 

You don't get to see that sort of thing with a single person only log.

[ProphetX]

And you are a "Poster Child" for why BW is doing the right thing

 

If you really know WoW mechanics, you would know that (especially up until the recent nerf) Tanks had excellent DPS (especially burst-AoE DPS) when over-geared and in the easier Heroics. If you had read that guy's post, he was specifically referring to situations where the Tank is "Epic'ed Out" and there's a new 85 gearing up. You are a perfect example of how many people are completely clueless when it comes to knowing how to correctly interpret the data they are presented with, and why giving everybody that information isn't a good thing.

 

"Competitive" Guilds will require Logs on their runs. Guilds that are struggling on content can (if they choose) gather parses for analysis. Theorycrafters and Optimization Freaks will go nuts beating up Target Dummies to create "optimal" rotations (that can hardly ever be used because of fight mechanics). Some bugs will be identified and forwarded for fixing. People will argue over classes having theoretical "Max DPS" differences of fractions of a percentage point, and in the meantime people will be able to run "Story Mode" Ops without constant and annoying "Meter Spam" and all will be good in the world.

 

The reason WOW had to entice tanks to run the low lvl heroics with a goodie bag is because they didn't want to run with these type players . Sure a lvl 85 decked out in Dragon Soul gear is gonna out dps a new 85 but WoW put gear restrictions on there heroics for a reason . You couldn't even start Heroics unless you had a 346 ilvl , you had to have a higher ilvl for the Rise of the Zandalari Dungeons , and you guessed it a higher ilvl to run the last 3 they added with the Dragon Soul raid .

 

So your point is invalid a new 85 isn't gonna be running with a raid geared tank .

 

They did that for a reason but I don't know what Im talking about because it goes against your privacy .

 

 

Bad players are bad , but we can help the ones who are if we can see what there doing wrong .

 

The poster I was responding too wanted to be carried regardless of how bad a player he was and didn't care about the rest of the group or anyone else's time he was wasting .

 

 

Your a perfect example of twisting the uses of a parser to turn it into an evil thing to suit your own agenda .

Edited March 6, 2012 by ProphetX

[RealAeiouy]

People should be able to see a combat log that shows what is happening in the entire raid/party, not just themselves.

 

Look at my analogy. Its like asking a captain of a team to help other people when he can only see himself play. In anything competitive, a leader is able to view his team and help critique/improve.

 

I am sorry, but if you do not want other people to know what you are doing wrong or help you, then competitive ANYTHING is not for you.

 

I don't understand. If this implementation was executed in ANYTHING ELSE besides a video game, then it would be unacceptable. And don't say it is because you pay to play. BioWare has included a Story Mode just for you.

 

 

 

I answer that question in my OP. Read it.

 

 

Your analogy is fail as you want the qb to have up to the minute stats on his teammates teleported to his helmet instead of relying on what he sees while playing

 

Being able to have your character to accurately account all combat around them precisely makes no sense.

[Drewser]

Not really. If it's an optional function, then they can complain you won't turn it on and let them see your numbers. Anyone in a video game or online who you don't know that is demanding you provide them with personal information like your email address by emailing them something just to do a pug run would look like a complete and utter maniac. Seriously..."turn on the function" sounds reasonable and lets them claim they're not asking for much...while "send me an email or I won't pug with you" sounds quite unreasonable...creepy even...and would get laughed at.

 

Not really given the easy access to throwaway email addy's. People will be ***** about it either way though.

 

I just think the toggle is better given we know there are groups of people that want that functionality.

[ferroz]

You left the other thread where I asked you to produce one quote that stated it would contain data other than about yourself.

I'm pretty sure I responded to your response, pointing out the fact that the quote that you're using doesn't actually say that...

 

I don't have a notification from a mod, so either it's there, or it got et by the forums. EDIT: No, I checked, that response is still there.

 

edit2 (edit harder): I also added a response to your response to my response to your response.

Edited March 7, 2012 by ferroz

[Cindikle]

Ok, do people not complain about how easy Ops are in this game? So, who's being carried again? Also, who's being held back? To be perfectly honest, if I'm having fun in a run and everything is dying, I couldn't care less if one of the DPS is still sitting at the beginning of the FP. I just want to have fun. WOW stopped being fun due to min/maxers trying to enforce their rule on others. In SWTOR, I can actually group again without hearing all of the bickering. And honestly, I'm not even referring to myself. I'm always one to spend time perfecting my rotation, enchanting/gemming my gear properly, etc. I just get sick of players arguing stupid stuff like this when the content is being cleared. So again, NO from me. I'd rather I keep having a good time where everyone in the group is just having fun. I don't need the tank telling the DPS to "pick it up" when we've already cleared two bosses.

 

WoW always had min/maxers. This comes from way before WoW. Honestly it wasn't a "fad" till wrath when they tried to make content for everyone. Because then more people cared about how they did or how others do. Even if all they did was 10 man normal. They now cared more. Damage meters were in WoW before BWL even came out. Top end guilds even had threat meters by then. KTL was in use long before it was put out to the public.

 

Nothing is stopping you from continuing to enjoy yourself if/when combat logs are put in. If the content you're doing is easy enough you can play with your rotation/spec.

 

Yeah and guns don't kill people, people kill people, why not force everyone to have a gun.

 

I vote No to a global combat log.

 

A self only combat log helps the ones who want to improve themselves but doesn't give any extra ammo to a "griefer player".

 

No one is forcing you to use a combat log or damage meter.

No one is forcing you to buy a gun.

 

I know the flip side. I love the flip side. Again, if used correctly, DPS meters are awesome. The problem is, you can't stop people from abusing them and even if I'm top DPS, I don't want # 2 on the list blasting #7 the whole time. It annoys me and ruins the run for everyone.

 

Stand up and tell him to shut up. Or have suggest everyone to put him on ignore. If he's the PuG leader, don't join his raids. If he's the raid/guild leader, then talk him down or help improve #7.

 

From my experience when players get angry at either over dps it's because content isn't being downed. I it fair the rest of the raid to call it a night because the lower dps'ers can't keep up?

[Darth_Grissom]

No thanks

 

Ill stick with the personal logs we have now. There should be an option to share it but it should be OPTIONAL

[WildbloodX]

Darth_Grissom> hits 150

Combat log> hits 1500000

[ferroz]

Ill stick with the personal logs we have now.

You have personal logs now?

[Drewser]

You have personal logs now?

 

He means the ones in 1.2.

[Rebeldad]

No thanks. I see people on this thread which exhibit some of the reasons I don't want a dps/threat meter for everyone to see.

Also Starglide you do have a tone when responding to others post, and it isn't a neutral one.

I will not care for general combat logs if they some day allow them, whether I stop playing the game is another question entirely since I am in a great guild and dont have to worry about douchebaggery like some have to.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Rebeldad

[MrOrionQuest]

We're getting our own personal log and eventually a parser down the road. A displayable combat log isn't needed.

 

Some people seem to think you'd be a bad player if you didn't want them, quite the opposite. The best players don't even use them, for several reasons, some of which I'll touch on.

 

1. Many world and server-first guilds play on test realms, because it both makes them competitive and helps them learn fight mechanics well before the instance is even released to live realms. Because of this, many addons and logs are either broken or wonky, which means they're unreliable sources of information. To add, many times a group will go with strange builds or a stacked group to enable them to finish an encounter that many of your normal groups simply will not notice or use.

 

2. These players are very under-geared. They don't have the time to farm these instances if they want to stay competitive, which also means they're not out there searching for BIS items. These people have to perform to their utmost on every single pull, constantly. They're also expected to do all pertaining research, stay up to date on any class changes brought by the new patches, including set bonus changes and how it affects their group. Damage meters mean nothing to these people because it doesn't matter how much they're doing, they already know it's not going to be the best possible DPS their class can do, simply because they don't have the best items of that instance. This isn't factoring builds that are far from the norm that are constantly being re-worked. Most of your top-end raiders aren't specifically built for maximum DPS at all times, especially when surviving a mechanic surpasses the need to maximize your damage.

 

3. These people are already aware of the output in damage and healing needed to down a boss or survive a fight. This is also why some fights with strict timers will see people dropping a healer in favor of bringing in a DPS, they don't complain that person A isn't doing as much as person B. These people instead bypass the entire process and drop a heals to bring another damage, or the opposite depending on situation.

 

4. Meters provide false information. They don't tell you a fight was favored by ranged over melee, they don't tell you that a person was doing less damage because the boss was kited, or the player was taking more of a utility role. They don't tell you that on some phases of a fight a healer can stop healing and concentrate on either regen or help damage the boss, or the opposite, a DPS was pulled from damage to help others survive a mechanic.

[ferroz]

He means the ones in 1.2.

That's not "now" ... and we have only speculation at best on how they'll actually work.

[Master-Nala]

No to combat logs please.

[Seregul]

+1 for full, robust combat logs. It's not clear to me how a personal log in a group setting would even work. If you are healed, will it tell you who healed you, when they healed you, and for how much? If a fight mechanic requires spreading out in order to avoid self-inflicted damage, will the parse tell you who damaged you, and for how much? If this key information is stripped out for the sake of "privacy", then they might as well not bother.

 

Combat logs are just raw, unbiased information. The people who use that information to antagonize and belittle people do so because that is who they are. The logs do not make them do it, and taking away that tool will not make them stop. By arguing against them you are denying yourself the only thing that can make them shut up forever. Parse don't lie.

[DaxRendar]

Thanks for once again proving my point about yourself and the problem with Meters!

 

The reason WOW had to entice tanks to run the low lvl heroics with a goodie bag is because they didn't want to run with these type players. Sure a lvl 85 decked out in Dragon Soul gear is gonna out dps a new 85 but WoW put gear restrictions on there heroics for a reason.

 

And yet there are Tanks in WoW doing random Heroics with people in 346 gear and ************ about DPS. On entry-level Heroics. Where every mob is dying and nobody in the party is.

 

 

Bad players are bad , but we can help the ones who are if we can see what there doing wrong.

 

The poster I was responding too wanted to be carried regardless of how bad a player he was and didn't care about the rest of the group or anyone else's time he was wasting.

 

Yeah, you sound real "helpful" there

 

Guilds will be able to help their members with Personal Logs and Parsers.

 

And on smooth PUG FP runs, you'll never know if or who you are "carrying" or not, and it in fact shouldn't matter.

[Blotter]

Your analogy is fail as you want the qb to have up to the minute stats on his teammates teleported to his helmet instead of relying on what he sees while playing

 

Being able to have your character to accurately account all combat around them precisely makes no sense.

 

Exactly. What do professional sports teams do? They go back to the locker room and watch tape of the game. THAT is what BW is essentially implementing. Tom Brady doesn't run around with a laser HUD inside his helmet telling him that Deon Branch is running at aspeed equivalent to a 4.3 40 and is about to break open on the corner who is trying to cover him. No. They put their game faces on, go play the game, win it or lose it and then go watch tape AFTER the game. THAT is the correct analogy.

[RealAeiouy]

Have you ever played WOW? I've had random pugs where the HEALER complained non-stop that the DPS was too low and the run was taking too long. I've had DPS players in top tier gear bashing DPSers that just started that tier of content (ie their gear is not as good). I've had tanks hate on DPS for having lower DPS than them. All this happening as the bosses all died with no issues. That IS griefing.

 

 

Sorry, but I don't want every group I join to become a peeing contest when the bosses are being downed regardless.

 

 

So, again, I say no.

 

That is one of the biggest problem with meters. People use meters as a replacement and then don't have to learn how to work and communicate with others.

 

It is funny in early eq where you basically had to group all the time there was never a problem determining who was holding groups back. Plus you had a much more social environment where people work together.

 

I think games that exist where people can spent a good amount of time have an obligation to foster healthy social skills.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Notannos
rude

[Drewser]

That's not "now" ... and we have only speculation at best on how they'll actually work.

 

Nope, the Devs have told us how they will work. You just don't want to understand what they have said.

[ferroz]

4. Meters provide false information. They don't tell you a fight was favored by ranged over melee, they don't tell you that a person was doing less damage because the boss was kited, or the player was taking more of a utility role. They don't tell you that on some phases of a fight a healer can stop healing and concentrate on either regen or help damage the boss, or the opposite, a DPS was pulled from damage to help others survive a mechanic.

actually, a good meter can tell you almost all of that (the only one that is questionable is the "boss is kited" since logs don't do movement generally)

[Canis_Anubis]

No. Don't turn this into WoW!

 

First of all, too late. Second of all, transparency into the game mechanics will make the game better for everyone.

 

Seconded: Implement damage logging.

[ferroz]

Nope, the Devs have told us how they will work. You just don't want to understand what they have said.

No really, I understand what they've said. I just don't see any reason to pretend that they've said things that they haven't.

 

What they've said about them so far is incredibly vague, and I'm sure that's intentional. We likely won't get specifics until it's on test.

Edited March 6, 2012 by ferroz

[Cripplers]

Short Answer-

No

[Sernon]

I'm against turning the game into an abstract numerical measure contest, and yes I understand what this is about, all too well.

 

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