So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[TetraCleric]

I don't need a crutch but I need progression if i want to play a mmo. Why are we changing how mmo's work? I don't care if its care or new abilities I want new toys to play with. Thats how d&d worked and mmo's are digital copies of d&d.

 

You want the progression from rateds, when the progression already exists in the normals.

 

Rateds are meant to be competitive PvP.

[ohnam]

Knowing who to target, when to target them, what abilities to use at the right time, when to run, when to focus, when to fight to the death, when to make a run on the objectives, which objectives to prioritize.

 

Skill. None of that is related to your gear.

 

Those are tatical decisions. Not you actually aiming and hitting a target. Skills is the ability for you actually perform the action you would do. I.E shooting someone from 50 yards while on the move, passing the pall while being rushed from 300pd monster.

Edited March 6, 2012 by ohnam

[Laokoon]

Right, so, therefore, SWTOR's wz's should be cookie cutter like madden, bf3 and your favorite, pac-man!

 

You suggested that swtor's wz's have as much to do with role-playing as pac-man...really?

 

What this boils down to, is if you agree with gear progression from PvPing. I say there should be progression just like the rest of the game.

 

I'm glad that we can agree that the PvP in TOR is not an RPG. Thank you.

 

Regarding the gear progression issue, it boils down to this: Do you want a competition of skill or a competition of gear? I enjoy competitions of skill. You enjoy gear. That's fine, but you are in the minority. As proof you are in the minority, look at all competitions of games through out all of human history, going back to the Ancient Olympics. It has always been and always enforced that the opponents play on a level, equal field so you have nothing more than a competition of skill, not gear. People who have used performance enhancing drugs or assaulted other players have had their medals stripped from them because that is not a "fair playing field". That is not what you want, fine, but realize that overall, most people do.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Laokoon

[ohnam]

You want the progression from rateds, when the progression already exists in the normals.

 

Rateds are meant to be competitive PvP.

 

This whole thread is about "hard cores" having gear progression and nothing to do with rated. Look at the title of this thread.

[Darth_Sookie]

Of course it's the same thing. Rated PvP in WoW, on the servers, was casual. And will stay casual. It was a glorified practice "realm" for tournament play. Tournament play took place with 0 gear disparity because it was supposed to be competitive. That is the approach Bioware wants to take.

 

You just want the e-peen, without ever having to actually go up against people that will wipe the floor with you.

 

Yeah i must be terrible who want gear to have rating requirement and all of you who wants it in the mail at 50 must be reeeeealy skilled players. You just dont have the time to show the world how good you are right.

[Crowleyz]

I'm done, not giving them another chance to take my money from me. Spent 2 months gearing up 2 alts in BM stuff to get ready for rated warzones, and gg Crowley! It was all for nothing harhar

 

Only have one thing to say to them after this gigantic waste of time: "F U" (No, not Fun University)

[TetraCleric]

Yeah i must be terrible who want gear to have rating requirement and all of you who wants it in the mail at 50 must be reeeeealy skilled players. You just dont have the time to show the world how good you are right.

 

I have all the time in the world. I'm a War Hero, I've had full BM for weeks now. I'm getting my alt to BM now.

 

I just don't need a crutch to separate myself in competitive PvP.

[TetraCleric]

This whole thread is about "hard cores" having gear progression and nothing to do with rated. Look at the title of this thread.

 

There is gear progression. And the OP wants that progression from Rateds, not just from Normals.

 

Maybe you should go back re-read what the OP meant in his post.

[drduncan]

I'm done, not giving them another chance to take my money from me. Spent 2 months gearing up 2 alts in BM stuff to get ready for rated warzones, and gg Crowley! It was all for nothing harhar

 

Only have one thing to say to them after this gigantic waste of time: "F U" (No, not Fun University)

 

LoL well... bye.

 

Enjoy whatever unfair playing field you choose to play on next!

[ohnam]

When the competetive elements of this game wants gear progression and character advancement it's because "we want to be carried by gear".

Whereas causals feel they should have a clear progression path all the way up to the best gear for little to no effort.

 

 

Why can't us hardcore players have something to work for that actually takes effort and teamplay to get? I want to feel i earned the gear, not getting it handed to me by merely participating in PvP.

 

Sure competition is it's own reward, which btw is why i'm still racking up lots of games daily even though there is no tangible reward in it for me except more titles. But just as the causals want gear progressions, so do we. Even if the gap is a small one like champ to bm gear, it's still nice to have stuff to look forward too.

 

Ranked players will spend most of their time in ranked warzones so it's not like we will spend all out time ganking you in non ranked.

 

Nothing really here about rated. OP just wants a way to get gear through time and effort.

 

Well except for the last sentence. My mistake.

Edited March 6, 2012 by ohnam

[Spymaster]

Gear progression itself is fine, but the difference between a top geared player and a low geared player in PvP should be very small.

 

And regardless of how you play, you should have a path towards that gear. Even if it takes casual / solo players much longer to reach it.

 

When you have to play a certain way or do certain content you'd rather not do just to get gear, it's a bad system.

 

Fun with your friends, or fun on your own (a new concept to the genre, but now valid) is the point of these games.

 

This ^

 

I don't care if they have gear progression in the game or not, but once it becomes the reason you're playing... the game is broken, plain and simple.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Spymaster

[TetraCleric]

Nothing really here about rated. OP just wants a way to get gear through time and effort.

 

Read the very last line.

 

Ranked and rated are synonymous in this discussion.

[Bovinity]

Yeah i must be terrible who want gear to have rating requirement and all of you who wants it in the mail at 50 must be reeeeealy skilled players. You just dont have the time to show the world how good you are right.

 

I just don't get this. Why is "time spent" such an important figure for you guys? So important that you actually seem to think that just being logged on longer than someone else means you should get statistical advantages over them? Hell, why would you even WANT that kind of system?

 

I'm all for gear and stat progression in PvE. That's just the kind of environment it is, it's designed to keep you progressing through various tiers of content and levels of difficulty, etc.

 

But PvP isn't PvE. It's supposed to be a pure competitive environment. Player versus Player. Why is it such a foreign idea to you that everyone be on even footing there, with the results determined by who is the better player? Why does it appeal to you to have the ridiculous figure of "time spent" take precedence over that?

[Laokoon]

How do we quantify skill in mmo's when its all dice rolls and rock paper scissors? Certain players will be stronger just from the sheer fact that choice this ac at level 10 and another person chose another ac. If they are of equal gear and skill the person who chose the right class in this encounter wins.

 

 

How does one win in rock, paper, scissors? Rock beats scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock. Each choice has position to be played and is effective against another. The same is true in class based PvP. As a healer, I will never out damage a DPS class, so i am not going to go head to head against a DPS class. I am going to heal my allies. My allies, hopefully will out damage the DPS class.

 

Every class does not have to be balanced with every other class. Every class has to be equally viable in that: Class A is better at X while Class B is better at Y and each have their jobs to do.

 

Then you keep track of performance in matches via stats and compare stats.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Laokoon

[drduncan]

Nothing really here about rated. OP just wants a way to get gear through time and effort.

 

And that is what we have now. So by your own logic, thread should be closed.

[Yutaa]

I don't need a crutch but I need progression if i want to play a mmo. Why are we changing how mmo's work? I don't care if its gear or new abilities I want new toys to play with. Thats how d&d worked and mmo's are digital copies of d&d.

 

So you don't need progression when you play chess. Or baseball, or basketball, or poker, or CS, or whatever else you name it. But PVP in SWTOR is sooo different.

 

I mean you can enjoy every minute of CS fight without gear difference. But as for SWTOR WZs - nope, you can't.

 

Oh man...

 

And I will ask again. And this is completely fcking practical question. Why do I need to spend 100+ hours for some **** called leveling and 100+ hors for some **** called gearing to join my friends in PVP?

[TetraCleric]

I just don't get this. Why is "time spent" such an important figure for you guys? So important that you actually seem to think that just being logged on longer than someone else means you should get statistical advantages over them? Hell, why would you even WANT that kind of system?

 

I'm all for gear and stat progression in PvE. That's just the kind of environment it is, it's designed to keep you progressing through various tiers of content and levels of difficulty, etc.

 

But PvP isn't PvE. It's supposed to be a pure competitive environment. Player versus Player. Why is it such a foreign idea to you that everyone be on even footing there, with the results determined by who is the better player? Why does it appeal to you to have the ridiculous figure of "time spent" take precedence over that?

 

Short answer is because his skill can not carry him like gear can.

[EternalFinality]

Those are tatical decisions. Not you actually aiming and hitting a target. Skills is the ability for you actually perform the action you would do. I.E shooting someone from 50 yards while on the move, passing the pall while being rushed from 300pd monster.

 

MMOs require very little mechanical skill. Rotations are not hard to execute mechanically. Similarly, someone playing chess has little difficulty moving the pieces, but skill is very obviously involved.

 

Making the right tactical decisions IS SKILL.

Edited March 6, 2012 by EternalFinality

[ohnam]

How does one win in rock, paper, scissors? Rock beats scissors, scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock. Each choice has position to be played and is effective against another. The same is true in class based PvP. As a heal, I will never out damage a DPS class, so i am not going to go head to head against a DPS class. I am going to heal my allies. My allies, hopefully will out damage the DPS class.

 

Every class does not have to be balanced with every other class. Every class has to be equally viable in that: Class A is better at X while Class B is better at Y and each have their jobs to do.

 

Then you keep track of performance in matches via stats and compare stats.

 

Well that depends on how the game is designed, you might be able to do enough dps and heal enough to wear out the dps'er. It all depends on how the game is designed. I know in some other mmo's that lots of healr could easily out heal the dps'er and wear them down and there was nothing the dps'er could do to win unless he out geared the guy.

 

So there has to be a way for each class through stats or abilities to beat someone of equal skill. Sometimes that is gear.

[ohnam]

So you don't need progression when you play chess. Or baseball, or basketball, or poker, or CS, or whatever else you name it. But PVP in SWTOR is sooo different.

 

I mean you can enjoy every minute of CS fight without gear difference. But as for SWTOR WZs - nope, you can't.

 

Oh man...

 

And I will ask again. And this is completely fcking practical question. Why do I need to spend 100+ hours for some **** called leveling and 100+ hors for some **** called gearing to join my friends in PVP?

 

I ask you again why do I have to do it for pve? You sound like you are ok for pve to be gated but for pvp, how dare you? Same concept, its gated.

[ohnam]

MMOs require very little mechanical skill. Rotations are not hard to execute mechanically. Similarly, someone playing chess has little difficulty moving the pieces, but skill is very obviously involved.

 

Making the right tactical decisions IS SKILL.

It is a skill, I concur. So is min/maxing. Those skills are the appropriate skills in my opinions to be useful for pvp in mmo's. If you truly want it to be skill base then do a rts or fps. Edited March 6, 2012 by ohnam

[TetraCleric]

I ask you again why do I have to do it for pve? You sound like you are ok for pve to be gated but for pvp, how dare you? Same concept, its gated.

 

But the point of PvE is for DPS races. It's gated by gear so that you can't beat NM on day one. In 1.2 NM gear will be the highest tier gear, but you don't need the gear to beat the fights. It makes them easier, so you can be ready for the next tier.

 

You want the same thing in PvP. You want gear to make it easier for you. In PvP, we call that a crutch.

[ohnam]

But the point of PvE is for DPS races. It's gated by gear so that you can't beat NM on day one. In 1.2 NM gear will be the highest tier gear, but you don't need the gear to beat the fights. It makes them easier, so you can be ready for the next tier.

 

You want the same thing in PvP. You want gear to make it easier for you. In PvP, we call that a crutch.

 

 

Its not a crutch. I'm improving my character.

[Bovinity]

If you truly want it to be skill base then do a rts or fps.

 

So essentially you're telling us that you don't want PvP to be about skill. I didn't think someone would come out and just say it so plainly.

[TetraCleric]

Its not a crutch. I'm improving my character.

 

No, you're not. PvP doesn't get progressively harder as time goes on. PvE does.