ForceDweller Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Warning: Common sense and logic will be applied to promote the MMO player's right to have fun "their" way instead of the dev's way will be applied. I was watching the SWTOR guild summit live stream today and was very troubled by the PVP lead Devs comments. Currently PVP tier 3 is as useful as PVE tier 2 minus set bonuses, so on and so forth. The lead Dev said "There will be a larger emphasis on expertise and War hero PVP gear will NOT be raid viable, we want to move away from that".... The first question that popped into my head was ... WHY? Especially when the player base is complaining over "lack of content"... WHY? You see and exclusive stat like Expertise makes the PVP elite melt fresh 50/PVE only players' faces... something they do not need because they have been honing their PVP skills, and do not need a gear based handicap. Furthermore, Exclusive stats effectively segment the game content and castrates the player's freedom. Case Study: 3 MMO players that live in MOM's basement and play 80 hours of SWTOR a day. 1) PVE GUY - plays 80 hours a week doing PVE and has best in slot gear for PVE only, making him 35% more effective pressing the same 4 buttons in PVE only. This is a handicap a skilled, informed, well prepared raider does not need to be better than non skilled raiders. This player will never experience endgame PVP or he will loose his edge in endgame PVE in relation to his/her peers. 2) PVP GUY - plays 80 hours a week doing PVP and has best in slot gear for PVP only, making him 35% more effective in PVP only (a handicap a good pvper does not need against PVE players and noob players). This player will never experience endgame PVE or he will loose his edge in endgame PVP in relation to his/her peers. 3) I LIKE BOTH GUY - Plays 80 hours a week, 40 in PVE and 40 in PVP. He/she has no gear best in slot for either PVP or PVE... WHY? Fact: True ENDGAME requires lots of Expertise OR Lots of PVE stats, depending on which "part of the the game" the player finds MOST enjoyable... A Raid group will not take a player in War Hero tier 4 Gear An 8 player pre-made in a rated WZ will not take a player in tier 4 PVE gear (without BIOCHEM MAXED to boot but that is a different subject). So the player wanting to experience ALL OF THE GAMES CONTENT... is forced to play 160 hours per week to stay effective in either PVP or PVE... NOTE: PLAYER SKILL HAS 0% TO DO WITH ENDGAME PVP (Expertise spreadsheet) or ENDGAME PVE (max stat spreadsheet). 35% more effective related solely on EXCLUSIVE STAT GEAR is 35% more effective. The two camps: CAMP PVE: "PVE takes more skill because it takes co-ordination and skill to down an endgame boss, PVP players can just leach valor/comms all day which takes 0 skill." CAMP PVP: "PVE takes no skill when all you have to do is farm instances, watch a you tube clip, and google a 4 button rotation... the rotation never changes, the fight never changes..." THE FACT: Both camp PVE and PVP are EXACTLY ALIKE ... and have been CONNED AND CONDITIONED into a Red Herring argument. BOTH PVP AND PVE PLAYERS ARE ALIKE IN THE FOLLOWING WAYS: 1) Want skill to be a determining factor of character progression and gear progression 2) Believe mindless farming in PVP WZ, or as the 8th/16th slot in guild with a raid on farm mode REQUIRES LITTLE TO NO SKILL. 3) Believes elite gear should be for elite players (Top 5% of raiders...AND Top 5% of rated PVPers)... honestly what is more elite and fair than that? 4) Would have more fun in PVP/PVE if it was more readily accessable (Threads full of people crying about the expertise handicap in PVP WZ), and plenty of people will be crying (like me) about how Tier 4/5/6/7 PVP gear is completely worthless in PVE and cannot participate and will never step foot in an endgame raid (whats the point? more grinding for something I only enjoy as a change of pace). THE EXCLUSIVE STATS SPLIT THE GAME IN TWO... EVERY ELITE PVP PLAYER CAN ONLY ADVANCE DOING PVP CONTENT EVERY ELITE PVE PLAYER CAN ONLY ADVANCE DOING PVE CONTENT ANY SKILLED PLAYER NOT DOING ONLY PVP OR PVE WILL NOT BE "GOOD ENOUGH" FOR EITHER SO, BIOWARE, WE ARE BEGGING YOU .... Let tier 3/4/5/6/7 be tier 3/4/5/6/7 and obtainable in different yet EQUALLY ELITE WAYS (perhaps cosmetic differences would be smart). There is no fun in ONLY being able to PVP without doubling the grind or ONLY being able to PVE without doubling the grind. LET THE PLAYERS CHOOSE HOW TO HAVE FUN WHEN THEY LOG ON FOR THE DAY... NOT STATS MADE UP BY DEVS TO EXCLUDE HALF THE POPULATION FROM THE OTHER HALF OF THE GAME! Ironically, Gear progression is MUCH, MUCH more rewarding when that UBER PVE drop can melt faces in PVP, and that UBER PVP reward for being in the top 5% of all PVPers can help down a raid boss... and MOST IMPORTANTLY.... GASP It gives the players more accessable content minus the banal and pointless grind. Not everyone wants to PVP 100% of the the time, and not everyone wants to PVE 100% of the time. The game is more fun when DEVS, and their made-up EXCLUSIVE gear stats, are not telling all the players how to play and advance their characters, by separating instead of making gear progression truely massive and multiplayer. DONT LOOK US IN THE EYES AND TELL US THAT REAL FUN IS: ... gear grinding TWO TIMES > skill at ALL TIMES. Furthermore, THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO COULD POSSIBLY QQ ....ARE.... you guessed it ONLY PVPers or ONLY PVErs Exclusive PVP players or Exclusive PVE players... and a PVE only player should not dictate how a PVP player should obtain his/her tier 4 gear and a PVP player should not be able to dictate how a PVE only should obtain his/her tier 4 gear... because their opinion about the other half of the game they do not play, really does not matter, because they do not play that part or are affected by that part of the game at all!!! GET RID OF EXCLUSIVE STATS BECAUSE EXCLUSIVE PLAYERS DO NOT NEED EXCLUSIVE STATS TO BE MORE SKILLED IN PVP OR PVE. The kicker in all this is... ENDGAME RATED WZ: Expertise will be about the same in all top rated teams among their players, making the handicap effectively 0... as in fresh 50 vs fresh 50. ENDGAME RAIDS: Same players in same gear, pressing same 4 buttons, watching same youtube "how to" videos... will all have that 35% raid handicap, making them all the same... Therefore, EXCLUSIVE STATS DO NOTHING EXCEPT PREVENT the other half of the population from enjoying the other half of the game. Seriously, Stop Copying WoW's model or there will be no difference, no choice, no alternative... just reskinned POOP.,, and forum epeen stroking of PVP>pVE no no no PVE>PVP... How bet letting the players decide both in RAID and in WZ who is skilled enough to group with and who is just a baddie... NOT THE EXCLUSIVE STATS.... notice by making the tiers the same (except perhaps cosmetic differences)... PLAYER SKILL is the determining factor in equally time dedicated players, not a Devs spreadsheet and Commandment of how a PVP player will have fun but ONLY in PVP, and a PVE player will have fun but ONLY in PVE. Seriously let Tier 4 = Tier 4, and keep it exclusive to bleeding edge Raiders AND PVPers... or Mix and Match if the player is skilled and enjoys BOTH PVP and PVE. Staying in the WoW box does nothing productive... for anyone. Because players who enjoy that style and progression will go play WoW. Bioware, Grow a Pair. Heck if you want separate gear grinds... How bout giving both PVP and PVE players multiple flavors of tiered gear, like 3 sets of tier 4 gear PER CLASS... that is SPEC specific (like healing or lightning or melee DPS set bonuses) that helps players fulfill IN GAME ROLES in PVP and PVE instead of the EXCLUSIVE STAT GARBAGE that limit plaerys to PVP or PVE... BIOWARE: you are doing duel specs, so why not spec specific and multiple same tier gear sets , that even hybrids specs can mix and match...via set bonuses that are tree specific? ^^^^ That idea will stretch content out even more while allowing characters to progress both vertically and laterally IN MULTIPLE WAYS, WHILE EXPERIENCING MORE CONTENT (Or not if they choose) instead of limiting content, stretching out grinds with Exclusive Stats, and choosing to TELL PLAYERS HOW TO PROGRESS OR HOW TO HAVE FUN WHILE ADVANCING THEIR CHARACTER solely through PVP for PVP or solely through PVE for PVE... or even telling PVP players they must PVE or PVE players they must PVP. /Signed Everyone who has L2P their class in all situations...which, by definition, is true skill and mastery. P.S. Crafters wanting to craft tiered gear... I would love to champion crafting tiered gear as well, but gold farmers turn that into a 3rd party cash shop where everyone looses, and an in game cash shop is not a proven business model mixed with a subscription... yes even BOP unless the mat drops themselves are on mobs/nodes, BOP, and have really really tiny proc rates with all required mats also being BOP as well as the crafted item being BOP... I would see no problem with that personally because it would be a closed system, and a top 5% asian style mat farmer deserves a few tiered epics imho... anyone who disagrees should go max level a gathering character in FF14 and then chime in... some people really enjoy that, I think its beyond nuts, but most dont respect that playstyle because they would find gouging out their own eyes about 1/4th the way through a grind like that more appealing and fun... but who the hell are we OR THE DEVS to tell us... "wait, wait, I know you just did what 5% of the player base could not or would not do.... but son, epic tiers are only for PVE players of varying skill depending on guild farm status, and pvp warzone farmers with /t played epic tiers crippled by resiliance cough expertise"... IS THIS NOT MORE OF A SANDBOX CONCEPT PEOPLE ARE CRAVING IN THE CORNER OF THE MUCH BASHED THEME PARK PROGRESSION AND DESIGN? PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A PVE>PVP or PVP>PVE conversation... the TOP 5% (or whatever) in rated PVP or PVE are both elite players... and the whole conversation will become off topic bashing. TY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pesh Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I tried reading this whole thing... I really did, but it really is just more complaining about nothing. 1- People complain there is nothing to do at end game, you just complained there is to much to do at end game... 2- And since when should a game have pvp gear and pve gear work both ways... it makes no sense. I have a awesome set of pvp and pve gear, I let my companion wear the set I am not currently using. Do I have every top tear piece? NO, but I have a high-end set on both sides, and I do not play even close to 80 hours a week... Separation of both sets is important, and should be done this way. It makes no sense for someone to pvp non stop and become better at PVE, and vis versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnugthreeonefive Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Uhm. Way TLDR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaulIsGod Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) I don't know which was longer... The summit? Or your post? Lots of effort there to just complain. Maybe this game is just not for you. Edited March 6, 2012 by MaulIsGod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForceDweller Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 Not Complaining... it is really simple to understand. I love this game, I dont want to play wow gear progression 2.0. I like the game too much not to say anything about the direction the devs announced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayfax Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I lost focus about half way through, but the tldr is: he wants all endgame gear to be usable in any context, ie: raiding in PvP gear or PvPing in raid gear. Which sorta defeats the purpose & developer intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangarrage Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 wow ramble much The fact that they are completely separating pvp and pve is the best thing to do as neither apply to one another You assume too much about the raiding side. And ofc like most posters you make a mountain out of a molehill Do you have any idea right now how easy it is to get pve gear? Do you have any idea how easy it is to get pvp gear? Those 2 facts make everything you wrote completely invalid The pvp gear btw just became easier to get too unless ofc you didnt read the patch notes So yea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaulIsGod Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Not Complaining... it is really simple to understand. I love this game, I dont want to play wow gear progression 2.0. I like the game too much not to say anything about the direction the devs announced. The first to lines of my post were an attempt at some humor. Apologies if it seemed mean. After all - text has no tone... There are some things mentioned at the summit that have me shaking my head as well but in all honesty, I'm just going to play until I stop enjoying the experience and then move on. Have fun.... That's what it's all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForceDweller Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 But lets all players benefit equally from Tiered gear, and proposes Tree and Hybrid spec bonuses of tiered gear.... So say a Sin would have 4 different versions of tier 4 gear... with varrying set bonuses to choose from or mix/match... It lets PVP players PVE and PVE players PVP, stretches out gear grinding laterally instead of only vertically ... doint it vertically will keep making PVP players less PVE viable and PVE players less PVP viable which effectively splits the game content in half for no reason at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForceDweller Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) wow ramble much The fact that they are completely separating pvp and pve is the best thing to do as neither apply to one another You assume too much about the raiding side. And ofc like most posters you make a mountain out of a molehill Do you have any idea right now how easy it is to get pve gear? Do you have any idea how easy it is to get pvp gear? Those 2 facts make everything you wrote completely invalid The pvp gear btw just became easier to get too unless ofc you didnt read the patch notes So yea LOL, yes... BUT THE STATUS QUO IS GOING AWAY... And they do apply to each other... a PVP player shouldnt be locked into PVP only, and PVE player to PVE only, doomed to farm another set to be viable.... LET PLAYER SKILL DECIDE WHO TO BRING ON RAIDS AND WHO TO DO RANKED WZ WITH!!! NOT SOME BS EXCLUSIVE STAT USELESS FOR THE OTHER HALF OF THE GAME AND GIVE US TIERED GEAR CHOICES TO FARM, NOT ONE OR THE OTHER. IT MAY NOT BE BAD NOW.... NO RAIDER WILL BE RATED WZ VIABLE IF THEY ARE A HARDCORE RAIDER AND VICE VERSA... just like the Dev said. Edited March 6, 2012 by ForceDweller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfmiolleh Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I read the whole thing! Ima go log in on my toon and see if I unlocked a title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightglade Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I LIKE BOTH GUY And that's perfectly within your right but SGRA's haven't been implemented yet. Be careful or you might break an unintended ruleset. *wink* I completely disagree. PVE gear should be strictly for PVE and PVP gear for PVP or you have the massive nightmare that RIFT ran into. No thanks. The Devs have it correct. So let them continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadinaxx Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 a few points: 1) you are talking BiS (Best in Slot), that does not mean "effective", that means "best". I understand you are using the top tier as a baseline, but let me go deeper. 2) All this gear (since you admit that skill doesnt really matter much, except losing that "honed edge") can be attained through attrition, it only takes time, especially with pvp. 3) You are addressing purely hardcore tendancies, again, I understand you are setting a baseline, but there are alot of differant factors that come into play that makes the "Do both" viable, as well as mixing and matching pvp with pve gear (high accuracy is still gonna be good for dropping tanks) 4) Only the leet of the hardcore groups are gonna fall into your catagory of a pve wearing pvper going into a ranked wz, and a ranked pvper going into NiM operations. As a raid leader myself, I like to see people who diversify themselves in PvP, that step into PvE content. I dont take a fully BM geared War Hero into NiM progression, but PvPers tend to be more situationally aware of bad things happening. Everything you described was out of balance, and not from the devolpers standpoint. IMO, your entire arguement was either purposelly viewed out of balance, or accidently. FYI: I'm a do both, and do it on a budgetted time frame just fine. I have three sets of gear: (pvp)tank, (pve)tank and (pve)dps. I'm working on a (pvp)dps set Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrocanis Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 And that's perfectly within your right but SGRA's haven't been implemented yet. Be careful or you might break an unintended ruleset. *wink* I completely disagree. PVE gear should be strictly for PVE and PVP gear for PVP or you have the massive nightmare that RIFT ran into. No thanks. The Devs have it correct. So let them continue. Rift ran into a problem where the devs were not imaginative enough and every tier of PvE raiding turned into massive gear-checks. Because of ~their lack of vision~ PvP suffered. Had nothing to do with separation in my opinion. Had 100% to do with Blizzard-Vision . If Bliz did something stupid, Trion did it twice as stupidly. With one glaring exception - TW invented Mercs (to my knowledge). That is what drove me out of Rift (and I had an R40 cleric and we were raiding twice a week). I don't think the devs have it right. I think they are going down a rabbit hole that will bleed more subscriptions from their game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerion Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I like the direction the devs are going...the only thing they're lacking is the Third Way, namely, SOLO only gear. This is gear you can only attain doing Endgame instances solo, and would not be effective in PvP nor Raid. Likewise, PvP and Raid gear would not be effective in these solo endgame instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bustha Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Im a PvE player at heart. But i wouldnt begrudge my pvp friends a crack at atleast beeing viable in raids with theire pvp gear. Im pretty sure a lot of the pvpers think the same way about pve players. And to top it of since theres already a pretty long jump from pve geared players and BM geared players in pvp it would make sense to eiter exchange expertise with just the regular stats or lessen teh impact of expertise in pvp but make it retain its usefulness in a pve senario. A remake to let expertise work like mastery in wow or something along those lines perhaps or just a flat amount of power at a 1:1 ratio? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Right now pvp gear is not the best gear for pvp. They need to fix it by increasing the exclusive expertise stat. Otherwise they need to give pvp grinders access to the same gear you get from nightmare mode raids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSwab Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I have been enjoying PvE'ing in my small guild with a mix of champ/bm/colum (but only 2 pieces colum so far) gear. Seems to imply that's going away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForceDweller Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 Right now pvp gear is not the best gear for pvp. They need to fix it by increasing the exclusive expertise stat. Otherwise they need to give pvp grinders access to the same gear you get from nightmare mode raids Or better yet... give each class 4 sets of tiered gear for each tier to mix and match and be equally viable in pvp or pve... lets face it PVP players dont need help killing fresh 50's via expertise... PVE players don't put up with idiots in raids... PVPers won't have baddies in ranked WZ PVE players cry about being 2 shot in PVP without grinding for PVP gear. (some classes and it WILL get worse the more gear is scaled vertically instead of laterally with stacked expertise like the dev mentioned). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farho Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I fully agree the OP as a long term mmo player. Back in WoW vanilla we used to PvP a lot with our raid gear as a hardcore raiding guild. It was extremely fun and relaxing. Our gear wasn't as tough as the PvP gear but it compensated with superior damage. As soon as resilience was implemented, that stopped, because we couldn't deal that superiod damage on players with high resilience. We were just a fragile bunch in shinies. Most of us slowly stopped PvP and that took a lot from the game. Some even said they don't have the bagspace even if they had the time to farm PvP gear (back in the day, being a raider meant you have to carry tons of items in your bag, including potions, materials, quest items, food, soulshards, arrows, mana gems etc. etc.). This slowly made our guild less fun and tore us apart in the end. People weren't "friends" anymore without doing anything fun out of raids. You can imagine, dailies or 5 mans are not "fun alternatives" for raiders. Levelling alts is a solo or 2 person activity. Many of us left the game after TBC, me and others came back to check every now and then but we never found anything fun to do and eventually quit. Expertise stat is that dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForceDweller Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 basically making PVP players focus soley on PVP and PVE players only on PVE... and HORRIBLE at the other... is self defeating and limits content experienced per player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evel Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Uhm. Way TLDR. This Basically PvE gear should be focused on PvE and PvP should be focused on PvP. No one says you have to do both equally every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeiLican Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 PVP and PVE should never be crossed. The gear, tactics, abilities and other variables are not comparable. Hell the Experience gain shouldn't be crossed either. Space, PVP, PVE all should have their own respective skill sets because they are completely different areas of expertise and desire/interest to the player base. Bioware was foolish in combing them to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiphere Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 MMOs ARE gear progression... that's what they 'are' period. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lieing to themselves and you.. And guess what? most of us like it. I know i"m not alone in the fact that as a PVP player I don't want johnny Raider to be able to go run his nightmare EV or whatever and then come into PVP and kick my tail because he earned a gear advantage in one aspect of the game and used it in another. Vice versa I'm sure hardcore raiding guilds don't want us PVPers being in equal gear and being able to go eat up the same content as them without having to climb the gear ladder they did. You put too much emphasis on skill in PVE raids too. If you can log in and lose your way to top teir pvp gear (which you can) you will to fill in those slots you can't get a group for until you're capped out for gear. People take the path of least resistance. By making the gear focused on the content it was designed for you make it objective based and not just "which one is easier to get" If both were viable for both I promise you people would ID which was easier/faster and just do that for the gear grind regardless of what sort of playstyle they want. This eliminates that. I whole heartedly disagree with the OP and anyone that supports them. Keep PVp and PVE gear separate, imo, separate it even more. Don't even let peopel wear raid gear in WZs or PVP gear in instances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iite Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 This troll posted the same thing in the pvp forum. Just flag it as spam and move along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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