Combat logs 1.2. Parsable outside of game.

[MaverickXIV]

If the game can write to an output file in real time, then we can make an always-on-top application that may as well be an in-game parser.

 

Then, if we really wanted to defeat the purpose, we could network these applications to display anyone you invite.

[MasterKayote]

What were the exact words? Just want to make sure its not another "could mean anything" quote like last time.

 

Bravo to Bioware if it is personal. Though its nice to see how youre doing, what killed you, etc ... theyre not needed. This is perfect. It brings most of the benefits of parsers while really preventing all the negatives.

 

Very impressed with the direction youre taking the game now with this and the in-server LFG. Hats off.

Edited March 5, 2012 by MasterKayote

[Akash]

I so much agree with you on this, but me crushing pugs by 4k dps did nothing but boost my pride a little.

 

I can lose that if I get to keep my flexibility in spec for operations and flash points where optimal is not needed.

 

DPS meters also serve to show how you've progressed. A buddy of mine and I were talking on Rift this past weekend, we were pulling about 3 times the DPS we were pulling a few months ago. We had the best time laughing about our individual DPS now would have been an impressive group dps six months ago.

 

It's these little metrics and achievement markers that keep folks interested.

 

There are target dummies in capital cities where you can go and try out different gear/weapons/specs etc.

 

It's fun to see what combinations of spec/gear/consumables produce the best results.

 

It also helps players illustrate objectively when something isn't working, such as ability multipliers that have no effect, stats that have no effect, or consumables that just don't work.

 

It's created a sense of cooperation there between players and developers, with players being able to show mathematically what's working and what isn't working, and developers having access to much more data or data that is acquired in ways they perhaps didn't think about.

[solidkjames]

Seems like the devs went right down the middle. The people arguing they need information for performance evaluation can get that now and the people who don't like being publicly judged won't be. Who knew there was a compromise that satisfied both sides.

[Akash]

Seems like the devs went right down the middle. The people arguing they need information for performance evaluation can get that now and the people who don't like being publicly judged won't be. Who knew there was a compromise that satisfied both sides.

 

I don't believe this compromise satisfies both sides.

[Knewt]

Seems like the devs went right down the middle. The people arguing they need information for performance evaluation can get that now and the people who don't like being publicly judged won't be. Who knew there was a compromise that satisfied both sides.

Going down the middle serves nobody. The decision is a poor implementation. The system already requires an external parsing program. What possible reason could there be not to include everyone's information in the log?

[JediElf]

Just FYI for all you 'hard cores' out there. Folks are not 'afraid' of having their performance scrutinized by DPS meters, it's not fear at all.

 

What a majority of the detractors are against is the little dictators of a pug yelling about .02 less deeps, the screaming vent raid leader, and the toxic swill of community poison that usually forms, when overly competitive types, bully other players who have a different style of play.

 

No one is going to use DPS meters to 'help' anyone improve. That's just not how it works now. Don't fool yourselves, you all know it's no longer any kind of teaching, or improvement tool.

 

It's rarely used as it's intended to be...ever.

Edited March 5, 2012 by JediElf

[solidkjames]

I don't believe this compromise satisfies both sides.

 

You can monitor your own performance which is what you are asking to see. Being able to see everyone elses dps and stuff etc will be relugated to a tool outside the game. This is by design b/c for every person who wants it in game there is a person that doesn't. Therefore the compromise offers a solution for both sides.

 

And they are introducing target dummies in this game as well as you can see in the 1.2 video that will allow people to help others better their rotations.

Edited March 5, 2012 by solidkjames

[MasterKayote]

No one is going to use DPS meters to 'help' anyone improve (perhaps the rare raid guild but that is rare at best). That's just not how it works now.

 

It's rarely used as it's intended to be...ever.

 

This. And with personal logs people can help each other all they want. If the trainee is lying to the trainer then its his own idiocy keeping him back and defeats the purpose of asking for help anyway.

[Akash]

Just FYI for all you 'hard cores' out there. Folks are not 'afraid' of having their performance scrutinized by DPS meters, it's not fear at all.

 

What a majority of the detractors are against is the little dictators of a pug yelling about .02 less deeps, the screaming vent raid leader, and the toxic swill of community poison that usually forms, when overly competitive types, bully other players who have a different style of play.

 

No one is going to use DPS meters to 'help' anyone improve (perhaps the rare raid guild but that is rare at best). That's just not how it works now.

 

It's rarely used as it's intended to be...ever.

 

I completely disagree.

 

We use DPS meters constantly among classes in Rift for this very thing.

 

I've spent hours with new 50 warriors and Rogues at the practice dummies with us talking over their spec, their rotation, what consumables they are using.

 

I've helped people increase their DPS 50% in one afternoon.

 

My guild leader has pulled me up in channel and said our new guy is off on dps from where he should be with his gear, would you mind spending some time at the practice range with him and help him figure some things out?

 

It creates a sense of mentoring between veterans and new guys, and it creates a sense of cooperation between veterans.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Akash

[ChaosKirin]

^This^

 

What a PITA. Why not just give us meters. I want to know who is failing so I can help them get better.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of people use the meters to just kick people instead of trying to help them. If more people were willing to help, no one would mind damage meters.

[bchorn]

Just FYI for all you 'hard cores' out there. Folks are not 'afraid' of having their performance scrutinized by DPS meters, it's not fear at all.

 

What a majority of the detractors are against is the little dictators of a pug yelling about .02 less deeps, the screaming vent raid leader, and the toxic swill of community poison that usually forms, when overly competitive types, bully other players who have a different style of play.

 

No one is going to use DPS meters to 'help' anyone improve. That's just not how it works now. Don't fool yourselves, you all know it's no longer any kind of teaching, or improvement tool.

 

It's rarely used as it's intended to be...ever.

Your argument is akin to telling everyone they should stay home and not drive at night because a drunk driver might hit and kill them. Yeah, there are jerks in the game but for the most part, dps meters serve everyone a valuable purpose. The game shouldn't be designed because of the rare jerk.

 

Now, if you happen to be bad at your toon, then I can see how you might view EVERYONE in the game as jerk out to get you.

[_gideon]

Ok. This isn't what I was expecting but overall I'm fairly happy with it.

 

I really hope this doesn't rule out an ingame Bioware-supported (via API hooks or fully implemented) threatmeter.

[Grimgold]

BS.

 

1) if a raid leader accepts an unknown player (ie: never seen them play), that's on the raid leader.

 

2) If the raid leader cannot assess the player by inspecting them and (if need be) doing a performance test duel, then the raid leader is the fail, not the game.

 

1.) True but sometimes necessary.

2.) So every time you pug someone, your raid leader rolls the magic 8 ball on inspections, or if he's unsure you make your entire raid stand around while the pug clubs a tank to death, multiple times in order to get an accurate read?

 

Even if you are telling straight (and I have my doubts) you think this is a better answer than just giving us logs? Plus what if he sucks at a particular fight style (lots of movement) how is your test duel going to find that out.

 

Besides gear will tell you what someone is capable of, not what they will achieve, so your guilty of the same sin as all those gear score is life failers from wow.

[Blotter]

Personal, downloadable logs are a half-baked, half-assed way to implement combat logs. If Bioware is going to implement combat logs that can be saved for offline parsing, they need to go all the way and let me see everything from everyone.

 

Some people just cannot be pleased no matter what. Companies stop caring and exclude you from their target market when that's the case.

[JediElf]

Meh never mind....

 

I'm just glad that Bioware did what they did.

Edited March 5, 2012 by JediElf

[fendergibson]

Sound like win-win.

 

Gearscore mixed with people who watched TOO much on recount, ruined a lot of wow. It became an elitist community, and everything became "need 5k GS or more" etc, even if the bosses were easy and could be killed with a bunch of people in greens.

 

I think this is the right way to go from a server community perspective. The game gets ruined when you get too much of "need x amount of this, and x amount of that to get invite" mentality among people who doesnt know what they are doing in the first place.

 

In short: when noobs starts acting like elitists who think they know everything, when they actually DON'T, it goes very wrong, and that's what happened in WoW with too much focus on gearscore and recount across the board

 

This lets the people with brains do their job, and it also lets the community have less of the "elitist" wannabes spamming chat with random values needed.

[Ebbikenezer]

So if a raid leader asks the newb in questing blues what his dps is and he says his is higher than everyone else, were supposed to just believe him right? Fail.

 

Nope, ask him for his parse.

 

I am fairly certain with this info a worldoflogs type site will become available, and asking people to parse live logs while running Ops is a small thing for progressive guilds.

[Knewt]

Some people just cannot be pleased no matter what. Companies stop caring and exclude you from their target market when that's the case.

I believe in doing things the right way. If you are going to implement a new feature to meet the demands of high end guilds that want numbers, then implement the tool the right way. Forcing a raid leader to receive and assemble 8 or 16 individual combat logs is a bad implementation.

 

I seriously doubt anyone will be kicked from a FP pug because someone uploaded a combat log to an external program.

 

If you are going to the effort of creating a combat log that can be parsed, then do it the right way and simplify things for the raids who want to assemble the data.

 

Nope, ask him for his parse.

 

I am fairly certain with this info a worldoflogs type site will become available, and asking people to parse live logs while running Ops is a small thing for progressive guilds.

If I was applying to that guild, I would edit my parse to make me look better. Nobody can verify that the numbers I submit aren't correct.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Knewt

[JediElf]

Sound like win-win.

 

Gearscore mixed with people who watched TOO much on recount, ruined a lot of wow. It became an elitist community, and everything became "need 5k GS or more" etc, even if the bosses were easy and could be killed with a bunch of people in greens.

I think this is the right way to go from a server community perspective. The game gets ruined when you get too much of "need x amount of this, and x amount of that to get invite" mentality among people who doesnt know what they are doing in the first place.

 

In short: when noobs starts acting like elitists who think they know everything, when they actually DON'T, it goes very wrong, and that's what happened in WoW with too much focus on gearscore and recount across the board

 

This lets the people with brains do their job, and it also lets the community have less of the "elitist" wannabes spamming chat with random values needed.

 

You were there to eh? Yea...so was I.

 

Good post.

[Wolfeisberg]

Just FYI for all you 'hard cores' out there. Folks are not 'afraid' of having their performance scrutinized by DPS meters, it's not fear at all.

 

What a majority of the detractors are against is the little dictators of a pug yelling about .02 less deeps, the screaming vent raid leader, and the toxic swill of community poison that usually forms, when overly competitive types, bully other players who have a different style of play.

 

No one is going to use DPS meters to 'help' anyone improve. That's just not how it works now. Don't fool yourselves, you all know it's no longer any kind of teaching, or improvement tool.

 

It's rarely used as it's intended to be...ever.

 

Agreed...

I have only seen them being used as intended with in a guild, never never outside of the guild. This is why their system they are using is really good, because it lets guilds get the information they want, without it bleeding over to non guild things.

[Ebbikenezer]

I believe in doing things the right way. If you are going to implement a new feature to meet the demands of high end guilds that want numbers, then implement the tool the right way. Forcing a raid leader to receive and assemble 8 or 16 individual combat logs is a bad implementation.

 

I seriously doubt anyone will be kicked from a FP pug because someone uploaded a combat log to an external program.

 

If you are going to the effort of creating a combat log that can be parsed, then do it the right way and simplify things for the raids who want to assemble the data.

 

 

If I was applying to that guild, I would edit my parse to make me look better. Nobody can verify that the numbers I submit aren't correct.

 

So, you must be completely against 3rd party addons, armory type sites, tracking sites and 3rd party foumrs, right?

 

They are giving ample opportunity for tons of things to be implemented with this but... of course. Here comes the Doom Brigade.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Personal, downloadable logs are a half-baked, half-assed way to implement combat logs. If Bioware is going to implement combat logs that can be saved for offline parsing, they need to go all the way and let me see everything from everyone.

 

Let me put it this way:

 

You don't have the right to see everything from my character. If I choose to share my personal log with you, I will, but you don't have the right to assume that you should see it.

[Wolfeisberg]

I completely disagree.

 

We use DPS meters constantly among classes in Rift for this very thing.

 

I've spent hours with new 50 warriors and Rogues at the practice dummies with us talking over their spec, their rotation, what consumables they are using.

 

I've helped people increase their DPS 50% in one afternoon.

 

My guild leader has pulled me up in channel and said our new guy is off on dps from where he should be with his gear, would you mind spending some time at the practice range with him and help him figure some things out?

 

It creates a sense of mentoring between veterans and new guys, and it creates a sense of cooperation between veterans.

 

And you'll still be able to do that with the out of game parsing, without subjecting everybody else to the jerks who use the meters/logs against everyone they come in contact with and creates a bad experience for all, even if one is not the target.

[Knewt]

Sound like win-win.

 

Gearscore mixed with people who watched TOO much on recount, ruined a lot of wow. It became an elitist community, and everything became "need 5k GS or more" etc, even if the bosses were easy and could be killed with a bunch of people in greens.

 

I think this is the right way to go from a server community perspective. The game gets ruined when you get too much of "need x amount of this, and x amount of that to get invite" mentality among people who doesnt know what they are doing in the first place.

 

In short: when noobs starts acting like elitists who think they know everything, when they actually DON'T, it goes very wrong, and that's what happened in WoW with too much focus on gearscore and recount across the board

 

This lets the people with brains do their job, and it also lets the community have less of the "elitist" wannabes spamming chat with random values needed.

How is gear score different from requiring no blues or greens? It's a measuring stick that happened to be easily implemented and understood. Yes, it was abused. But it wasn't abused any more than looking if someone had all greens.

 

The community will create standards and begin to enforce those standards. Minimum gearing level has existed since the beginning of MMOs and has not changed in this game. It is just more obfuscated because the information is not available quickly.