New Information on Threat

[Daellia]

Fast question about the Intercede as i havent followed full thread and hope it wasnt asked. Does it remove/reset tank threat or the person that get the Intercede? Also this is about the Veng spec where the said skill grant the tank buff as well.

 

I'm not sure, to be honest. Given how deep Huddle is in Vengeance, I wouldn't be surprised if it reduced both targets' threat simultaneously (as well as reducing incoming damage by 20% for both targets). My gut, however, says that the tooltip is referring to the 20% damage reduction effect and not the threat drop. It should be pretty easy to test, though.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Daellia

[Slither]

Thanks for the info and sticking around to reply to posts. Thumbs up to you!

 

I would like to point out the "un-said" part of this post that is usually missed by DPS'ers.

 

It is NOT the soul responsibility of the tank to maintain aggro (threat). It is also the responsibility of DPS'ers to manage their threat levels.

 

For example; you may find more often then not that you will need to back off on the dps for a bit if mobs are scattered all over the place. Let the tank get aggro back, then continue to dps.

 

I know this seems obvious to some, but it seems to get lost in the thick of battle sometimes. Just remember "A dead DPSer = 0 DPS"

[Daellia]

Thanks for the info and sticking around to reply to posts. Thumbs up to you!

 

I would like to point out the "un-said" part of this post that is usually missed by DPS'ers.

 

It is NOT the soul responsibility of the tank to maintain aggro (threat). It is also the responsibility of DPS'ers to manage their threat levels.

 

For example; you may find more often then not that you will need to back off on the dps for a bit if mobs are scattered all over the place. Let the tank get aggro back, then continue to dps.

 

I know this seems obvious to some, but it seems to get lost in the thick of battle sometimes. Just remember "A dead DPSer = 0 DPS"

 

That said, due to the mechanics of taunt, and threat in general, a clever dpser, along with an attentive (and preinformed) tank, can use selective threat pulls to their advantage in certain circumstances.

 

I probably shouldn't put that here, since basically anyone capable of pulling off a stunt like that already knows that it can be done, but still. Pulling aggro is not always a bad thing, just usually.

[Slither]

Agreed.

 

My point is more towards better situational awareness by the DPS and less mindless button pushing. That could mean a calculated and helpful pull off the tank so the tank can taunt back for the aggro boost (as you alluded to above ) is a great example.

 

This seems to be going off topic now. My apologies.

 

I am excited to implement the taunt techniques you have presented here. Thank you!

[Khyler]

Got it.

 

Now all the need to do is introduce a ruler into the game so I know how far off I am and I'm sorted.

 

You are aware that you have that ruler? It's on the target icon. You are told how close you are to the target.

[Elyx]

Nice post OP! and moving very fast.

 

Thanks for the info. interesting stuff too, always enjoyed knowing more about the mechanics (I supposed that's what drives most min/maxing....the dig for more details.)

 

I would love to get more information on the DR you mention..plus there may be other possibilities not yet investigated that may be worth testing, such as threat deterioration (haven't read the original thread yet, not sure if that was covered).

 

Keep up the good work guys!

 

Note: on the topic of "hardcore" vs. "other stuff". I'm an other stuff guy. Love this game because they really do have a more full beginning and middle game process. Doesn't mean we can't have endgame, and doesn't stop people from wanting to know. As a matter of fact, I think that the less a company releases about their mechanics, the more it motivates die hard RE and theorycrafters to tinker.

 

Which IMO is a good thing. I love the information about the range changes to threat. so I can stop dry humping the boss on my jugg and back up a few feet for better threat on my taunts. good spot to throw in a Scream as well. Makes me glad we have a few 10m skills in our toolbox.

[thehornfreak]

I would also like to know if anyone has tested to see if there is threat deterioration. When I first started playing, it seemed like agro was a little volatile. We originally attributed it to fight mechanics such as secondary target and skills that were random target as well as seemingly continuously reducing threat. However, these were just observations. We don't have problems anymore and I assumed it was just our tank getting better at managing these things. Still makes me curious if agro decays and if so how much.

[Stupiddrummer]

Hey good post!!

 

Thanks for all the hard work!!

[aktiel]

Very, very, very, very, extremely, very helpful.

 

This needs to be a sticky for sure.

Edited March 11, 2012 by aktiel

[xRydisx]

while I appreciate your post..and this in-depth analysis you put here..that I didn't read..I can tell you, you wasted your time. As a DPS that has participated in many HM and raids in SWTOR..it holds little meaning with how easy the content is..and how easy it is for tanks to create threat.

[Ashu-ri]

Glad to see this back on the first page. Maybe if we say the word "sticky" enough, they'll finally make it one.

[Daellia]

while I appreciate your post..and this in-depth analysis you put here..that I didn't read..I can tell you, you wasted your time. As a DPS that has participated in many HM and raids in SWTOR..it holds little meaning with how easy the content is..and how easy it is for tanks to create threat.

 

I'm 9/10 NiM myself (raid in 2 hours, hopefully Soa tonight for 10/10), so I know where you're coming from. Current content is ridiculously easy, but hey, the point of these tests wasn't to allow us to kill things we couldn't before. Pursuit of knowledge, nothing more. Can't "waste" time if you enjoy doing it.

 

I would also like to know if anyone has tested to see if there is threat deterioration. When I first started playing, it seemed like agro was a little volatile. We originally attributed it to fight mechanics such as secondary target and skills that were random target as well as seemingly continuously reducing threat. However, these were just observations. We don't have problems anymore and I assumed it was just our tank getting better at managing these things. Still makes me curious if agro decays and if so how much.

 

As far as we can tell, there's no threat deterioration in-game. However, from experience, I know that there are a lot of NPC abilities/effects that reset threat, either globally or for a particular target. We'll do some more focus testing on it, however, it shouldn't be hard to demonstrate one way or another.

[Elyx]

I'm 9/10 NiM myself (raid in 2 hours, hopefully Soa tonight for 10/10), so I know where you're coming from. Current content is ridiculously easy, but hey, the point of these tests wasn't to allow us to kill things we couldn't before. Pursuit of knowledge, nothing more. Can't "waste" time if you enjoy doing it.

 

 

 

As far as we can tell, there's no threat deterioration in-game. However, from experience, I know that there are a lot of NPC abilities/effects that reset threat, either globally or for a particular target. We'll do some more focus testing on it, however, it shouldn't be hard to demonstrate one way or another.

 

the other thing I love about posts like this is it proves you dont need graphs or meters to play a game. some simply testing with a controlled group of people nets just enough results to do what you need to do...or just walk away happy that you got a bit more info about the game

[Daellia]

the other thing I love about posts like this is it proves you dont need graphs or meters to play a game. some simply testing with a controlled group of people nets just enough results to do what you need to do...or just walk away happy that you got a bit more info about the game

 

Well, I'll be honest, there are a number of things that would be easier to test with logs, in particular with live combat logs in the client (rather than just exportable ones). There are certain other mechanics that are actually effectively impossible to test without exportable logs due to the need for large amounts of data to process and statistically analyze (for example, the Accuracy cap against boss targets, which we can currently only make educated guesses about).

 

Not to turn this conversation over to combat logs (there's another thread for that already), but they are very handy for certain theorycrafting work.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Daellia

[xRydisx]

I'm 9/10 NiM myself (raid in 2 hours, hopefully Soa tonight for 10/10), so I know where you're coming from. Current content is ridiculously easy, but hey, the point of these tests wasn't to allow us to kill things we couldn't before. Pursuit of knowledge, nothing more. Can't "waste" time if you enjoy doing it.

 

 

 

As far as we can tell, there's no threat deterioration in-game. However, from experience, I know that there are a lot of NPC abilities/effects that reset threat, either globally or for a particular target. We'll do some more focus testing on it, however, it shouldn't be hard to demonstrate one way or another.

 

continue on then.

[Kithalt]

I'm not sure, to be honest. Given how deep Huddle is in Vengeance, I wouldn't be surprised if it reduced both targets' threat simultaneously (as well as reducing incoming damage by 20% for both targets). My gut, however, says that the tooltip is referring to the 20% damage reduction effect and not the threat drop. It should be pretty easy to test, though.

I would be very interested in knowing the answer to this one. While I don't know how long it'll last, I read an interesting argument for going deep in that tree to tank rather than the normal tank tree. If that talent provided the damage reduction to the caster but not the threat reset, it would help that sort of spec out quite a bit.

[Daellia]

I would be very interested in knowing the answer to this one. While I don't know how long it'll last, I read an interesting argument for going deep in that tree to tank rather than the normal tank tree. If that talent provided the damage reduction to the caster but not the threat reset, it would help that sort of spec out quite a bit.

 

It's on my to-do list to test, as soon as I can track down our resident Vengeance juggernaut and another guildie to test it.

[Aelrail]

Thank you Daellia and the guys at sithwarrior.com for all your research. very interesting results there regarding the mechanics of the game.

 

Keep up the good work.

[Daellia]

I would be very interested in knowing the answer to this one. While I don't know how long it'll last, I read an interesting argument for going deep in that tree to tank rather than the normal tank tree. If that talent provided the damage reduction to the caster but not the threat reset, it would help that sort of spec out quite a bit.

 

Tested today. Intercede does not reduce the user's threat, even with Huddle talented.

[finkelmana]

if this is how tanking works, threat is a joke in this game. As a tank, I find it disappointing.

[pouletenplastoc]

I am no tank and not lvl 50.

Anyway, i was wondering if i got that right.

The best for the tank would be to melee in the middle of the mob (so the dpser would have to be 20% higher to overaggro) and to taunt at max melee range for the 20% boost of threat ?

edit to make it clearer : the best way would be to move back and forth between max melee range and inside de 110% aggro radius, to throw taunt at max melee range ?

 

(i read a lot on sithwarrior site already, it's amazing work guys)

Edited March 16, 2012 by pouletenplastoc

[Kithalt]

I am no tank and not lvl 50.

Anyway, i was wondering if i got that right.

The best for the tank would be to melee in the middle of the mob (so the dpser would have to be 20% higher to overaggro) and to taunt at max melee range for the 20% boost of threat ?

edit to make it clearer : the best way would be to move back and forth between max melee range and inside de 110% aggro radius, to throw taunt at max melee range ?

 

(i read a lot on sithwarrior site already, it's amazing work guys)

The current tank would NOT need to move back and forth between ranges for the purposes of threat. The talked about range differences are for two things: taunting threat and how much threat someone other than the current tank needs to do to pull off the current tank. For the purposes of the differing threat thresholds it does not matter where the tank is standing. It matters where the other people are standing.

[kchapman]

Nice post.. However, my experience with Force Armor has been different, but I could be wrong, or maybe I am misunderstanding you. The application of Force Armor does not generate threat, but as soon as the consumer receives damage, Force Armor does indeed generate "healing" threat, and in my experience it's the same as the equivalent threat generated by a straight heal (for the same amount)

[Calimwulf]

Nice post.. However, my experience with Force Armor has been different, but I could be wrong, or maybe I am misunderstanding you. The application of Force Armor does not generate threat, but as soon as the consumer receives damage, Force Armor does indeed generate "healing" threat, and in my experience it's the same as the equivalent threat generated by a straight heal (for the same amount)

I disagree. I have never had mobs turn on me when I bubble someone. There are times when I have just run by and bubble someone open world that is surrounded by mobs and looking about to wipe. Even when they wipe, they (the mobs) don't turn and run at me. If Force Armor generated threat, the mobs would think I had 'damaged' them and would pursue me.

 

Now, if you HoT or Heal them, the mobs definitely turn and try to chew on you. It's one of the reasons why you should never let anyone make a pull while you have an active HoT on them.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Calimwulf

[kchapman]

Try this.. Bubble Qyzen, turn off all his attacks but 1, send him to engage a ranged fighter. When he does damage, send him to fight something else.

 

As soon as the threat level Qyzen generated on the initial DPS dissipates, it will switch agro to you, even if you do nothing.. It's easy to test on mobs several levels below you, and Qyzen will take a good chunk of health from them.

 

Also, in PVP matches, if your bubble "absorbs" a 2.5k hit, you will get the 2.5k heal medal even if you haven't casted a single heal spell. Pretty much a free medal at the start of each pvp match (and especially in huttball when they get pulled into the fire, the ticks are >2.5k)

 

And what you said makes sense (about bubbling people while running by). I've done this too, and what I've noticed is that if they are engaged (i.e. the targets are grey to you), they will not attack you unless your threat goes above the other person. And even when the person dies, they still remain in an engaged state for awhile and wont attack you. But I think that's more of a glitch, or by design.

Edited March 16, 2012 by kchapman