Infiltration, Viable in PVP?

[anstalt]

Its definitely very viable, you just have to compare what you are doing to other melee DPS to make sure you are playing to your strengths. Its basically Shadow Inf Vs Sentinel Vs Scoundrel. I'll admit, I don't know sents or scoundrels that well but I'll try my best.

 

 

DPS:

 

Sentinels - Top sustained damage, lowest burst

Shadows - Medium Sustained, Medium burst

Scoundrels - Lowest sustained, top burst

 

This is based off observation rather than direct knowledge but i think its about right.

 

Survivability:

 

Sentinels - take less damage in general (armour), only a couple of life savers

Shadows - really squishy in general, but resilience, deflection and force cloak are lifesavers

Scoundrels - take less damage in general (armour), have a cloak ability but otherwise lacking in defensive CD's

 

So, over time, shadows lose out due to low armour/defenses in general, but with good placement, good use of stealth and good use of cooldowns you can mitigate this weakness.

 

Utility:

 

Sentinels - Force leap roots enemies, even with full resolve. 6s interupt and inc healing debuff.

 

Shadows - Two stuns, from stealth KD, low slash KD, can perma-snare enemies, two taunts, 10s interupt.

 

Scoundrels - Some decent stuns, off-healing (unsure on rest)

 

 

Shadows flat-out win on utility. We offer so much more than other melee classes (and most ranged classes too). Our main weakness on utility is our long-cd interupt. Against healers and mercs this is a real problem if you are unable to kill them after the first round of cc/burst/interupts. They'll be sat with full resolve whilst ur interupt is on CD and ur clickies are on CD.

 

However, if you alter your gameplay to be more support DPS, you'll be fine. Follow a sentinel around, snare their target and taunt those attacking the sentinel. If you get focused, force-cloak and then pop up a short time later and continue to assist.

[Xinika]

Before I begin, are we talking about infil or KC?

 

Its definitely very viable, you just have to compare what you are doing to other melee DPS to make sure you are playing to your strengths. Its basically Shadow Inf Vs Sentinel Vs Scoundrel. I'll admit, I don't know sents or scoundrels that well but I'll try my best.

 

 

DPS:

 

Sentinels - Top sustained damage, lowest burst

Shadows - Medium Sustained, Medium burst

Scoundrels - Lowest sustained, top burst

 

This is based off observation rather than direct knowledge but i think its about right.

 

Incorrect. Shadows have the highest burst. Scoundrels are the ones gimped at the moment.

 

Survivability:

 

Sentinels - take less damage in general (armour), only a couple of life savers

Shadows - really squishy in general, but resilience, deflection and force cloak are lifesavers

Scoundrels - take less damage in general (armour), have a cloak ability but otherwise lacking in defensive CD's

 

So, over time, shadows lose out due to low armour/defenses in general, but with good placement, good use of stealth and good use of cooldowns you can mitigate this weakness.

 

Incorrect about Sentinel/Mara description. They have a vast array of defensive abilities to keep them alive. Undying Rage being almost a pally-bubble.

 

Utility:

 

Sentinels - Force leap roots enemies, even with full resolve. 6s interupt and inc healing debuff.

 

Shadows - Two stuns, from stealth KD, low slash KD, can perma-snare enemies, two taunts, 10s interupt.

 

Scoundrels - Some decent stuns, off-healing (unsure on rest)

 

 

Shadows flat-out win on utility. We offer so much more than other melee classes (and most ranged classes too). Our main weakness on utility is our long-cd interupt. Against healers and mercs this is a real problem if you are unable to kill them after the first round of cc/burst/interupts. They'll be sat with full resolve whilst ur interupt is on CD and ur clickies are on CD.

 

However, if you alter your gameplay to be more support DPS, you'll be fine. Follow a sentinel around, snare their target and taunt those attacking the sentinel. If you get focused, force-cloak and then pop up a short time later and continue to assist.

 

Again, are you talking about infil or KC? Because based on resolve works, you will not be the only one stunning your enemies nor will Low slash (an incap effect) be very useful compared to other 4 sec stuns out there that other classes feature.

[anstalt]

Before I begin, are we talking about infil or KC?

 

Thread is about infiltration spec being viable in pvp, so inf...

 

 

 

Incorrect. Shadows have the highest burst. Scoundrels are the ones gimped at the moment.

 

It was my understanding that whilst project + upheavel proc + force breach with force potency is amazing burst, you can only reliably do it every 90seconds whereas scoundrels can do their burst routine more often (just with lower top-end burst damage). If thats wrong, forgive me, I've only really played shadow so just basing these thoughts on observation / forums.

 

 

 

Incorrect about Sentinel/Mara description. They have a vast array of defensive abilities to keep them alive. Undying Rage being almost a pally-bubble.

 

Again, I'm unfamilar with other classes at endgame, but all I ever see sentinels using if the skill that basically negates all incoming damage for a few seconds and their deflection skill. I guess that equals our deflection + resilience so point taken, sentinels survive better

 

 

Again, are you talking about infil or KC? Because based on resolve works, you will not be the only one stunning your enemies nor will Low slash (an incap effect) be very useful compared to other 4 sec stuns out there that other classes feature.

 

Talking about inf.

 

The usefulness, or not, of our utility is down to player skill and group skill. I was merely pointing out that shadows have tons of utility while infiltration specced. Yes, when playing with pugs, things like low-slash and force stun lose their effectiveness because everyone gets carried away with CC but the point is we have the tools there and we have more utility tools than sentinels and scoundrels.

 

 

So, taking in to account all of the above, I believe that yes, Infiltration specced shadows have a place in competitive pvp, you just have to play to your strengths (burst + utility) and try to negate your weaknesses (you're squishy and can't interupt well enough).

[Karyia]

Seems like there are 2 main topics in this thread.

 

1) Is Inf viable in PvP? - Yes, it is. Tons of utility, great burst, really good 1on1. They are essentially the hard counter to a caster and controller of healers. I play Inf spec and find it to be more my liking than the tank specs as I love the hit and run play style it provides.

 

2) Is Inf viable in rated PvP? - Since we have no idea how this is going to work, all conversations on this are conjecture and theory. Based off of the small data set, that itself is anecdotal, lends to the theory that there will be three types of 4 man "power" teams.

 

Team 1 consists of a Heavy Tank, Melee DPS, and 2 healers. This is often perceived to be a Vigilance Guardian, or a Tactics Vanguard, with a Watchmen Sent or Balance Shadow, and a combination of two Sage healers or Commando healers. With that set up, your set to outlast, not out burst, your opponents.

 

Team 2 consists of a Heavy Tank, Ranged DPS, and 2 Healers. Same Tank set up, but the dps is a Gunslinger, Gunnery Commando, or a DPS Sage. Healer set up the same. This team focuses on more mobility and has more DPS than team 1, but is a bit squishier due to being ranged heavy.

 

Team 3 consists of a Heavy Tank, Burst DPS, and 2 Healers. Same Tanks as team 1 and 2, but adds a Kinetic Shadow as an option for a tank for added Battlefield control. DPS choices here are a DPS sage, Gunnery Commando, Scrapper/Dirty Fighting Scoundrel, Infiltration Shadow, and the usual two healer set up. This team is defined around initial engagement. Loaded with control and burst, this team's goal is to smush an opposing healer, while controlling the other, to get the first kill.

 

As Powerr, and Taugrim have posted many times, SWTOR PvP tends to favor DPS and the kill. A team with more overall DPS will always be more successful than another at the same skill and gear level, and that after the first kill the other side falls quickly. This tends to provide credibility to the theory that if rated PvP is 4 on 4 arena style, that a burst team would perform better than attrition teams in most battles.

 

My personal opinion is that all classes will have their place in rated PvP. I completely disagree with the though process that says that Infiltration Shadows have no place in it, as those arguments tend to come across as a justification to the poster that they chose the "superior" spec. Again, this is all just opinion, conjecture, and darts at a dart board theories as BW has not released their rating systems.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Karyia

[Xinika]

 

Talking about inf.

 

The usefulness, or not, of our utility is down to player skill and group skill. I was merely pointing out that shadows have tons of utility while infiltration specced. Yes, when playing with pugs, things like low-slash and force stun lose their effectiveness because everyone gets carried away with CC but the point is we have the tools there and we have more utility tools than sentinels and scoundrels.

 

 

So, taking in to account all of the above, I believe that yes, Infiltration specced shadows have a place in competitive pvp, you just have to play to your strengths (burst + utility) and try to negate your weaknesses (you're squishy and can't interupt well enough).

 

Sorry, but no. Sents/Maras are far more useful than infil are in competitive pvp. Simply because they don't need to have a babysitter and they bring Mortal Strike to the table. (Aka Healing Debuff) That alone by far outweighs anything infiltration can ever hope to offer at this point. If there was small-scale pvp such as arena, then perhaps then infil will shine with their "utility". (Which is merely single-target exclusively.)

 

Until then, there are other DPS classes out there that are simply far more useful than a single-target abuser. Why take a Scrapper Scound/Infil Shadow when you can have an Anhl Mara/Watchman Sent? It's literally gimping your team to take these 2 AC/Specs over the better ones.

[Karyia]

Sorry, but no. Sents/Maras are far more useful than infil are in competitive pvp. Simply because they don't need to have a babysitter and they bring Mortal Strike to the table. (Aka Healing Debuff) That alone by far outweighs anything infiltration can ever hope to offer at this point. If there was small-scale pvp such as arena, then perhaps then infil will shine with their "utility". (Which is merely single-target exclusively.)

 

Until then, there are other DPS classes out there that are simply far more useful than a single-target abuser. Why take a Scrapper Scound/Infil Shadow when you can have an Anhl Mara/Watchman Sent? It's literally gimping your team to take these 2 AC/Specs over the better ones.

 

I disagree completely. Sents/Maras are killing machines...when they have their cooldowns. They are also the hard counter to Shadows/Assassins. Medium Armor, MS, and an IWIN button every few min does not make them the end all be all of melee dps. Pressure players have their place, but will not kill anyone one on one (without cooldowns), and are just part of the machine in a 4v4 or WZ. I do not see how an Infiltration Shadow is any less useful. Their lockdown abilities are far superior to any other class in the game. They can lock out a healer for over 12 seconds if done correctly. I fail to see how that would not be beneficial in rated play. With the TTK in this game, along with the HPS healers are putting out, AoE will not kill anyone alone in a small scale skirmish, which is why you would want a single-target abuser. Oh wait, aren't Watchmen single target pressure players?

 

Your entire argument is based on that just because Sents/Maras are more durable and bring a MS debuff that they are superior to a Infiltration shadow. No Sent/Mara can blow up a target as fast as a Infiltration Shadow/Scrapper Scoundrel can. They can not lock down a target like a Infiltration Shadow can. Both classes rely on cooldowns for survivability (Force Cloak, Resistance, Deflection for a Shadow, Saber Ward, Force Camo, Guarded by the Force for Sents). Sents have more passive damage mitigation due to medium armor, but a Shadow has the ability to have more mitigation in Combat Stance, although I personally don't think its a viable trade off of for the shadow.

 

Without going further down a blow by blow ability comparison, it looks to me that neither is better than the other. You may put more of an emphasis on survivability, but being the last one standing when the rest of your team is dead is not winning. The first kill always decides the fight in a small scale battle. A Sent/Mara can not turn the tide alone, while an Scoundrel/Shadow can. That does not make Shadow/Scoundrels better, they just have different strengths.

[Xinika]

I disagree completely. Sents/Maras are killing machines...when they have their cooldowns. They are also the hard counter to Shadows/Assassins. Medium Armor, MS, and an IWIN button every few min does not make them the end all be all of melee dps. Pressure players have their place, but will not kill anyone one on one (without cooldowns), and are just part of the machine in a 4v4 or WZ. I do not see how an Infiltration Shadow is any less useful. Their lockdown abilities are far superior to any other class in the game. They can lock out a healer for over 12 seconds if done correctly. I fail to see how that would not be beneficial in rated play. With the TTK in this game, along with the HPS healers are putting out, AoE will not kill anyone alone in a small scale skirmish, which is why you would want a single-target abuser. Oh wait, aren't Watchmen single target pressure players?

 

Your entire argument is based on that just because Sents/Maras are more durable and bring a MS debuff that they are superior to a Infiltration shadow. No Sent/Mara can blow up a target as fast as a Infiltration Shadow/Scrapper Scoundrel can. They can not lock down a target like a Infiltration Shadow can. Both classes rely on cooldowns for survivability (Force Cloak, Resistance, Deflection for a Shadow, Saber Ward, Force Camo, Guarded by the Force for Sents). Sents have more passive damage mitigation due to medium armor, but a Shadow has the ability to have more mitigation in Combat Stance, although I personally don't think its a viable trade off of for the shadow.

 

Without going further down a blow by blow ability comparison, it looks to me that neither is better than the other. You may put more of an emphasis on survivability, but being the last one standing when the rest of your team is dead is not winning. The first kill always decides the fight in a small scale battle. A Sent/Mara can not turn the tide alone, while an Scoundrel/Shadow can. That does not make Shadow/Scoundrels better, they just have different strengths.

 

First of all, they are not a hard counter. If you're losing to them then that's another case of self reflection and the skill department. These lockouts you call out are meaningless based on resolve, guard, taunts, pulls AND heals, the exceptionally predictable burst also means nothing. Sustained damage will come out the victor in these rated wzs, which maras are far better at. Infil's burst is reliable every minute/ 15 seconds. Along with the piss poor survivability, I seriously don't understand why a team would gimp themselves in taking this class/spec over far more superior ACs out there. It literally requires babysitting. Btw, what makes you think a Sent/Mara can't burst?

 

PS: You're using the term Shadow loosely. So are you talking about Infil or KC? Because if you haven't realized, you can't stance dance anymore. Especially as infiltration. So that argument is flawed.

[Karyia]

First of all, they are not a hard counter. If you're losing to them then that's another case of self reflection and the skill department. These lockouts you call out are meaningless based on resolve, guard, taunts, pulls AND heals, the exceptionally predictable burst also means nothing. Sustained damage will come out the victor in these rated wzs, which maras are far better at. Infil's burst is reliable every minute/ 15 seconds. Along with the piss poor survivability, I seriously don't understand why a team would gimp themselves in taking this class/spec over far more superior ACs out there. It literally requires babysitting. Btw, what makes you think a Sent/Mara can't burst?

 

PS: You're using the term Shadow loosely. So are you talking about Infil or KC? Because if you haven't realized, you can't stance dance anymore. Especially as infiltration. So that argument is flawed.

 

Since I never once brought up skill in the discussion, as I was discussing mechanics, I'll ignore the skill comment as it is irrelevant to the discussion. An Infiltration shadow can use Spinning Kick and Low Slash and not cap resolve as each is one bar. The interrupt does not affect resolve either. The lockouts I'm referring too are not ment to defeat an opponent, but to assist the team as a whole. By preventing a healer from healing for a whole 12 seconds almost always results in the death of a second healer or other opponent. That is where I think your missing the value of an Infiltration Shadow.

 

On the Burst damage point, why would you want unpredictable burst damage? On-demand bomb dropping is what all burst dps classes want. Need that healer down now? See that guy over there with 50% health? Pop Force Infusion, BR, and Relic (consumable too if you wish) and down they go. I don't think anyone could every convince me that this type of burst-on-demand is a negative in PvP. In a node battle, you'll only need it once to turn the tide.

 

I still don't get the babysitting comment. Infiltration Shadows are not as durable as a Sent/Mara as they are in light armor for sure, but I also don't see how that's a detractor in small scale battles. Sorc/Sages are much less durable yet I don't see you saying they are no good. Are you saying they need to be guarded to be effective? There is nothing in game mechanics that says that is true. Do they need to be the focus heal target? Well so does everyone else when they have 4 people beating on them.

 

As far as the hard counter comment, it comes with the defensive cooldowns available to the Sent/Mara and their main damage mechanism. The 50% health for 99% damage reduction is a complete counter to any burst damage. Good Sents/Maras who use that at the right time turn the tide of the fight. I have trouble with the good ones, as I should because while an Infiltration Shadow does get Resilience to wipe the dots, a good Sent/Mara will reapply. As a burst class, anything that completely or almost completely mitigates that burst classifies as a hard counter in my book. Sents/Maras medium-high output combined with dots AND 3 solid defensive cooldowns are enough for me to call them that. Of course, if those cooldowns are not available then its a different story.

 

As for the Sents/Mara can't burst, I never said that. I said that they were pressure players with sustained DPS as their trademark. Of course they can do burst damage, but it is not as high nor as consistent as that of a Infiltration Shadow/Scrapper Scoundrel. It is an accepted assumption that Infiltration Shadows/Scrapper Scoundrels are the highest melee burst damage classes. You also keep making the comment that there are better AC's and that a Shadow gimps the team because they are squishy but offer nothing to explain your position. I'm curious as to why you think that being squishy with high damage is a liability as you have not made any comment about Sages/Sorcs gimping a team.

 

As I stated in my previous reply your making some assumption that sustained damage will be king in a rated WZ, but there is no information to back that up other than antidotal evidence which is too circumstantial for us to base any argument on. What if these WZ's are pugable? What if they are 8v8? What if they are 4v4? What if they are Arena's with one and done? Until that information comes out, there will be no argument anyone can make about what is/can/will be kind in a rated WZ. If you want to continue our debate on the mechanics between them I will gladly continue, but there is no debate to be had on who's better in a rated WZ as their rules are unknown at this time.

[Xinika]

Since I never once brought up skill in the discussion, as I was discussing mechanics, I'll ignore the skill comment as it is irrelevant to the discussion. An Infiltration shadow can use Spinning Kick and Low Slash and not cap resolve as each is one bar. The interrupt does not affect resolve either. The lockouts I'm referring too are not ment to defeat an opponent, but to assist the team as a whole. By preventing a healer from healing for a whole 12 seconds almost always results in the death of a second healer or other opponent. That is where I think your missing the value of an Infiltration Shadow.

 

On the Burst damage point, why would you want unpredictable burst damage? On-demand bomb dropping is what all burst dps classes want. Need that healer down now? See that guy over there with 50% health? Pop Force Infusion, BR, and Relic (consumable too if you wish) and down they go. I don't think anyone could every convince me that this type of burst-on-demand is a negative in PvP. In a node battle, you'll only need it once to turn the tide.

 

I still don't get the babysitting comment. Infiltration Shadows are not as durable as a Sent/Mara as they are in light armor for sure, but I also don't see how that's a detractor in small scale battles. Sorc/Sages are much less durable yet I don't see you saying they are no good. Are you saying they need to be guarded to be effective? There is nothing in game mechanics that says that is true. Do they need to be the focus heal target? Well so does everyone else when they have 4 people beating on them.

 

As far as the hard counter comment, it comes with the defensive cooldowns available to the Sent/Mara and their main damage mechanism. The 50% health for 99% damage reduction is a complete counter to any burst damage. Good Sents/Maras who use that at the right time turn the tide of the fight. I have trouble with the good ones, as I should because while an Infiltration Shadow does get Resilience to wipe the dots, a good Sent/Mara will reapply. As a burst class, anything that completely or almost completely mitigates that burst classifies as a hard counter in my book. Sents/Maras medium-high output combined with dots AND 3 solid defensive cooldowns are enough for me to call them that. Of course, if those cooldowns are not available then its a different story.

 

As for the Sents/Mara can't burst, I never said that. I said that they were pressure players with sustained DPS as their trademark. Of course they can do burst damage, but it is not as high nor as consistent as that of a Infiltration Shadow/Scrapper Scoundrel. It is an accepted assumption that Infiltration Shadows/Scrapper Scoundrels are the highest melee burst damage classes. You also keep making the comment that there are better AC's and that a Shadow gimps the team because they are squishy but offer nothing to explain your position. I'm curious as to why you think that being squishy with high damage is a liability as you have not made any comment about Sages/Sorcs gimping a team.

 

As I stated in my previous reply your making some assumption that sustained damage will be king in a rated WZ, but there is no information to back that up other than antidotal evidence which is too circumstantial for us to base any argument on. What if these WZ's are pugable? What if they are 8v8? What if they are 4v4? What if they are Arena's with one and done? Until that information comes out, there will be no argument anyone can make about what is/can/will be kind in a rated WZ. If you want to continue our debate on the mechanics between them I will gladly continue, but there is no debate to be had on who's better in a rated WZ as their rules are unknown at this time.

 

I can beat good maras/sents as infil simply because of my absurd burst damage. Now, with that aside. Only thing infil/scound has over mara/sent in terms of damage is burst. That's it. The sustained damage is lower. Which means that overtime, the mara/sent will win in overall damage. When the burst is needed, they have enough of it to down an enemy WITH an MS effect. Infil reminds me of ret paladin vs MS warriors. Back when the question was "Why on earth would you bring a ret over an arms warrior?"

 

Arms Warriors didn't have anywhere near the burst of Rets. Nor did they have any direct stuns/incaps. What kept them far more viable was their consistency and utility. Something that infils deeply lack in comparison. I never said the purpose of utility was defeating the enemy, but again Ill say this: Based on how resolve works, there is 0 reason to waste a low-slash to incap a target (That's healing for example) where another class can use that resolve for a full four second stun.

 

You will never prevent a good healer from casting for 12 seconds in group PvP. Especially since their partners are there with them. They can knock you down, pull you away, pull their healer from you and have a variety of tools to stop you. Not to mention, you're squishy and a rather easy target to knock down. Sure you can assist the team, but other specs can do it better.

 

Now you bring up sages/sorcs against infil's utility. Are you even close to being serious? They have: Heals, Pulls, Bubbles and a good sustained dps upkeep. They are WAY more viable than infiltration and far less squishy. To finish the final point, no one has a true last say in how infil will fare in rated wzs, but coming from a multi-gladiator player like myself, I'm telling you that this spec for competitive PvP is lacking and weak. For the record, infiltration is still my beloved spec but I am a realist, not a fangirl.

[anstalt]

sustained DPS is easier to heal through than burst DPS, which diminishes the usefulness of sentinels. Sentinels only really win on three things imo: greater interupt, healing debuff, survivability.

 

 

Like you say, the healing debuff is immense and if used right is extremely effective in competitive group play. But, its not the be-all and end-all. Without focus-fire and burst, a decent healer can still heal a teammate up through that. A decent tank can switch guard and taunt to allow the debuffed player to heal up. Its easy to counter.

 

A shadow, with its greater array of utility, can switch tactics if anything gets countered. Having an inf take on a healer basically removes the healer from the fight, allowing the rest of the team to take down who they are on without the need for a healing debuff. Perma-snare prevents people kiting. Taunt can save your team from getting focused. Predictable, on-demand burst can finish off a priority target.

 

 

Infs will definitely have a place in competitive pvp

[Darth_Xzygy]

For the record, infiltration is still my beloved spec but I am a realist, not a fangirl.

 

QFT. There is a LOT of wishful misinformation present in this thread. Take what people have said with a grain of salt.

 

Firstly, regarding hard counter, this is a term used to say that no matter the skill involved, the fight is pretty much decided entirely based on class/spec. In that case, I would agree, that for an infil/deception, Marauder is a hard counter. If they pop their defensive cooldowns and you burst into that, you're boned. If you wait them out, you're boned. While I have beaten them in that spec it is because they made serious core level mistakes and did not understand how to counter me. As Darkness/KC I have a leg up. As madness, I'm probably on about equal footing.

 

There is simply no reason to take deception/infiltration into competitive pvp. No matter how good someone is, they will not make up for the deficiencies of the spec. Worse, especially to other Sins/Shadows, we know the build isn't competitive, so your insistence will come across as willful ignorance and resistance to change, both of which have no place in competitive pvp.

[anstalt]

I still don't see why inf spec shadow can't be used in competitive pvp.

 

Granted, there are certain situations where inf is boned, but as part of a team we have our place.

 

 

For example, in a 4 man premade with 1 melee dps, 1 ranged dps, 1 tank and 1 healer, inf is boned. In this situation, chances are that we will get focus fired too often as we'll be in melee with less people around us, so sentinel is a clear advantage.

 

However, if you are running a premade that stacks melee, inf is perfect. Working as a team, get a proper assist-train going and just wreck havok. Sent+Inf Shadow working as a team can combine perma-snare, heal debuff + both massive burst and steady dps to plough through anyone. This is especially true when taking down enemy tanks who will mitigate more of the sentinels attacks than the shadows, so shadow burst is really useful.

[Karyia]

Arms Warriors didn't have anywhere near the burst of Rets. Nor did they have any direct stuns/incaps. What kept them far more viable was their consistency and utility. Something that infils deeply lack in comparison. I never said the purpose of utility was defeating the enemy, but again Ill say this: Based on how resolve works, there is 0 reason to waste a low-slash to incap a target (That's healing for example) where another class can use that resolve for a full four second stun.

 

<snip>

 

Now you bring up sages/sorcs against infil's utility. Are you even close to being serious? They have: Heals, Pulls, Bubbles and a good sustained dps upkeep. They are WAY more viable than infiltration and far less squishy. To finish the final point, no one has a true last say in how infil will fare in rated wzs, but coming from a multi-gladiator player like myself, I'm telling you that this spec for competitive PvP is lacking and weak. For the record, infiltration is still my beloved spec but I am a realist, not a fangirl.

 

A 4 second stun will use 3 bars of resolve for 4 seconds. Any other stun/incap will put them over the cap and any reasonable player will have saved their purge for this, meaning the most you'll have them locked out for is 5 seconds. I have been able too, consistently I might add, to pull of a full stun lock in a group furball. Even if I don't, if I cause the team to peel off whomever to defend the healer, I still have done my job. Of course you wouldn't use an incap during an assist train and I'm starting to get the feeling that your not looking outside that box. Think more of what a Skald would do in an 8v8 classic DAoC match up. If you want a place where stealth had no place, that would be it.

 

On the Ret v MS Warrior, that's two Plate Melee DPS. Both have equivalent durability and utility (Ret was more burst and interrupt, while MS was more control and heal countering). While Ret did have more burst, burst was not king in WoW because of Resilience, who's sole reason for existence was to counter burst classes. Because of that, burst was not as important as durability in rated PvP in WoW, Healing was. You needed to counter the healing as everything boiled down to mana drain/attrition battles. This is the real reason was an MS warrior was so much more compelling to bring, and I agree with you in reference to WoW. A Sent/Mara and an Infiltration Shadow are not equals in your comparison to WoW. If you wanted to draw a better parallel to WoW then Sents/Mara are MS warriors where a Infiltration Shadow is a Assassination Rogue.

 

I also didn't bring up the Sorc/Sage utility. You said that one of the detractors for an Infiltration Shadow was its light armor and low durability. The Sorc/Sage is also a light armor and low durability class. I was just looking for you to defend that position more. I personally feel that at least one Sorc/Sage is necessary for small scale PvP.

 

You also seem to argue that its an either or situation. Why can't both a Sent/Mara and an Infiltration shadow be taken?

Edited March 7, 2012 by Karyia

[Karyia]

There is simply no reason to take deception/infiltration into competitive pvp. No matter how good someone is, they will not make up for the deficiencies of the spec. Worse, especially to other Sins/Shadows, we know the build isn't competitive, so your insistence will come across as willful ignorance and resistance to change, both of which have no place in competitive pvp.

 

Explain how the build is not competitive. What are the deficiencies in the spec? By design a High Burst class will have low sustained DPS and will be less durable. The lower the DPS the higher the survivability, the Higher the DPS the lower the survivability. Not sure if that's what your getting at, but its hardly a deficiency. I am neither ignorant nor resistant to change. What I am is that I am not willing to dismiss an entire spec due to perception or lack of understanding.

 

I just want to make one off topic point here. All builds of the Shadow are viable in PvP. Each has a specific role to fill and that is one of the great strengths of this class. You have the ability to be a defender, or a bomb dropper, or a dot-em-up-and-laugh pressure player, or a hybrid defender/harasser. How is that not awesome? Oh, and this isn't WoW. WoW PvP was NOT GOOD. TM v SS battles in Vanilla, to 72 hour AV's, to T3 Roflstompers in AB, to Resilience, to Stacking Resilience, to Arena's being a burst fest, to Arena's becoming 30 min mana drain duels, to RMP teams being the only way to 2200+. WoW's PvP was an exercise in how important TTK is in PvP, and how you can't balance it around health pools and healing. SWTOR PvP is not all wine and roses either, but it is not WoW. I respect the ability of those who were able to brave the ladder to 2200+ in WoW as did not have the patience, nor did like the requirement to min/max gear to get there.

[Thrangbrand]

The fact of the matter is Infiltration Shadows are fun! Why play for performance solely. Using stealth and landing huge Shadow Strike damage is enjoyable. Although I must admit when swarmed its hard to get behind the target..

 

Sometimes I clean up with a Infiltration Shadow getting in the top three kills and medals then other times I really bomb out. I must admit I am still learning how to play one properly and I probably rely on Shadow Strike too much. But you can't top stealth attacks they are satisfying.

 

Sure Kinetic will have tonnes more survivability and their damage maybe similar but they are boring as bat ****. Its called a Jedi Shadow for a reason not a Jedi Tank.

[Evolixe]

Sir, you realise that the last post in this thread is more than 2 years old? Edited March 17, 2014 by Evolixe

[IInox]

http://home.comcast.net/~valethar/images/swtor/rakghoul_necropost.jpg

[ayobreezie]

Lmao.. His post is hella serious too.

[Telos]

The fact of the matter is Infiltration Shadows are fun! Why play for performance solely. Using stealth and landing huge Shadow Strike damage is enjoyable. Although I must admit when swarmed its hard to get behind the target..

 

Sometimes I clean up with a Infiltration Shadow getting in the top three kills and medals then other times I really bomb out. I must admit I am still learning how to play one properly and I probably rely on Shadow Strike too much. But you can't top stealth attacks they are satisfying.

 

Sure Kinetic will have tonnes more survivability and their damage maybe similar but they are boring as bat ****. Its called a Jedi Shadow for a reason not a Jedi Tank.

 

necroperv.

[sithBracer]

BW should make a system so that when people try to necro these threads a series popup messages pop ups that the user has to answer before they post it. An example below:

"The last post in this thread is over 1 year old, are you sure you want to reply to it?"

"The last post in this thread is over 1 year old, are you really sure you want to reply to it?"

"The last post in this thread is over 1 year old, are you really, really sure you want to reply to it?"

"Seriously? You're replying to a thread over 1 year old, are you retarded?"

"Have you seen a doctor to make sure you are actually mentally handicapped?"

"Are you sure you just aren't stupid?"

"Really sure?"

"If you necro this thread, god will force an innocent kitten to listen to Neil Diamond until it dies, is that ok with you?"

"So you hate kittens?"

"Seriously? How the hell can anyone hate a cute little kitten? One more time, are you absolutely sure?"

"By clicking yes one more time you are confirming you are a mentally retarded, kitten hating necroperv, is that ok with you?"

"Ok, for legal purposes we will be permanently adding this to your sig. You will not be able to erase it, is that ok with you?"