Sentinel /Marauder Nurf Before Rated WZ

[Krytycal]

Which spec is that? To have high survivability, I'd say Watchman is better, as reduced CD on GbtF is great, but you lose the self-heals, which actually do add up, and the immunity of Force Camo.

 

If you take the extra GbtF CD instead of Force Camo, then you have higher burst potential through Focus spec.

 

If we isolate all context to just High Burst, High survivability, then Watchman has high survivability, and mediocore burst, as it requires decent amounts of uptime. If we go Focus then the high burst is there at the sacrifice of some survivability.

 

If you look at the fundamental design of the Watchman spec, it suffers from dps uptime, and very little CC outside of Leg Slash which is pretty frickin awesome, no lie. The extra defensive cooldowns are because Maras have trash survivability without them and no easy way to maintain uptime other than Leg Slash and Leap.

 

Sins can maintain uptime with ranged slow, specced aoe slows/single target immo, resilience to remove slows, and class-wide stun, and specced out of stealth knockdown. PTs have a similar shield in terms of mitigation(kind of - I know the mechanics are different), and aoe stun, and a single target stun, and an aoe slow, and more survivability without CDs.

 

It's really easy to just say Marauders have high survivabiity, when you isolate the situation and the context to just defensive CDs. But when you place it together with closing ability, overall survivability, then you see a different picture.

 

You play all three, so you should know that it's not all black and white.

 

Please notice I did not say high burst, I said high damage. There is a difference. While I wouldn't say annihlation/watchman marauder has high burst, it definitely has high damage.

 

Since you brought it up, lets compare maras to sins:

 

Sins come in three specs: 24+ darkness (pure darkness or madness hybrids), 31 deception, and 31 madness.

 

Assassins have the following defensive abilities:

Force Shroud: 100% resistance to force and tech attacks for 3 secs, 1 min CD (5 secs duration, 45 secs CD if darkness specced).

 

Saber Ward: 50% ranged and melee defense for 12 secs, 2 min CD

 

Vanish on a 3 minute CD (2 mins if Deception specced)

 

Gap closers:

 

Force Speed: 150% speed for 2 secs, 30 secs CD (20 secsCD and breaks roots/slows if darkness specced)

 

Force Pull: 30 meter enemy pull, 45 secs CD (only available to darkness sins)

 

Vanish on a 3 minute CD (2 mins if Deception specced)

 

15m slows

 

 

Marauders get the following defensive abilities:

Cloak of Pain: 20% damage resistance for up to 30 secs, 1 min CD

 

Saber Ward: 25% damage resistance and 50% ranged and melee defense for 12 secs, 3 min CD.

 

Undying rage: 99% damage resistance for -50% health, 1 minute CD

 

Force Camo: 4 secs vanish, 45 secs CD (100% damage resistance if Annihilation specced)

 

Gap closers:

Charge in a 15 secs CD (12 secs if annihilation specced)

 

Force Camo: 4 secs vanish, 45 secs CD (100% damage resistance if Annihilation specced)

 

Melee slows

 

In my opinion (and experience), a marauder will have a higher uptime than DPS sins, and similar uptime to tank sins thanks to charge being on such a small cooldown. However, you have to consider that a marauder has considerably more survivability than a DPS sin, and higher damage output than a tank sin. They're basically a tank and DPS sins rolled into one.

 

I can also give you the breakdown of maras vs PTs, but lets just say that PTs get 1 cooldown worth mentioning. That is a 25% damage reduction for 12 secs on a 2 minute cooldown. DPS PTs have NOWHERE near the survivability of marauders, and tank PTs have nowhere near their damage.

 

I'm not saying marauders are completely overpowered, however, I do believe they have too many defensive abilities on too short of a CD compared to the other DPS classes. Yes, they have more abilities to press than other classes, but that's way blown out of proportion. I have a marauder and it's really not that hard. In fact, I find DPS assassins harder to play.

[Mannic]

LOL yea and maurauders aoe knockdown that leaves everybody kicking on the ground like a baby is not THE SAME EXACT THING with a way more infuriating animation.

 

Knockdowns aren't nearly as powerful as knockbacks in this game. Not even close.

[EternalFinality]

Please notice I did not say high burst, I said high damage. There is a difference. While I wouldn't say annihlation/watchman marauder has high burst, it definitely has high damage.

 

Since you brought it up, lets compare maras to sins:

 

Sins come in three specs: 24+ darkness (pure darkness or madness hybrids), 31 deception, and 31 madness.

 

Assassins have the following defensive abilities:

Force Shroud: 100% resistance to force and tech attacks for 3 secs, 1 min CD (5 secs duration, 45 secs CD if darkness specced).

 

Saber Ward: 50% ranged and melee defense for 12 secs, 2 min CD

 

Vanish on a 3 minute CD (2 mins if Deception specced)

 

Gap closers:

 

Force Speed: 150% speed for 2 secs, 30 secs CD (20 secsCD and breaks roots/slows if darkness specced)

 

Force Pull: 30 meter enemy pull, 45 secs CD (only available to darkness sins)

 

Vanish on a 3 minute CD (2 mins if Deception specced)

 

15m slows

 

 

Marauders get the following defensive abilities:

Cloak of Pain: 20% damage resistance for up to 30 secs, 1 min CD

 

Saber Ward: 25% damage resistance and 50% ranged and melee defense for 12 secs, 3 min CD.

 

Undying rage: 99% damage resistance for -50% health, 1 minute CD

 

Force Camo: 4 secs vanish, 45 secs CD (100% damage resistance if Annihilation specced)

 

Gap closers:

Charge in a 15 secs CD (12 secs if annihilation specced)

 

Force Camo: 4 secs vanish, 45 secs CD (100% damage resistance if Annihilation specced)

 

Melee slows

 

In my opinion (and experience), a marauder will have a higher uptime than DPS sins, and similar uptime to tank sins thanks to charge being on such a small cooldown. However, you have to consider that a marauder has considerably more survivability than a DPS sin, and higher damage output than a tank sin. They're basically a tank and DPS sins rolled into one.

 

I can also give you the breakdown of maras vs PTs, but lets just say that PTs get 1 cooldown worth mentioning. That is a 25% damage reduction for 12 secs on a 2 minute cooldown. DPS PTs have NOWHERE near the survivability of marauders, and tank PTs have nowhere near their damage.

 

I'm not saying marauders are completely overpowered, however, I do believe they have too many defensive abilities on too short of a CD compared to the other DPS classes. Yes, they have more abilities to press than other classes, but that's way blown out of proportion. I have a marauder and it's really not that hard. In fact, I find DPS assassins harder to play.

 

Marauders are far more susceptible to roots than Assassins. That "higher uptime" is theoretical. Assassins START next to their target. For a Marauder to do so, they need to burn leap, which exposes them to kiting from the start.

Edited February 29, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Astarica]

Is all the complaints about Marauders due to Huttball? There's a lot of unusual class balances in that map. It's the only map with a relatively flat yet narrow terrain without elevation (sides/middles), so Marauders can hide their weakness against kiting by fighting in select areas on that map. In open ground, it's quite easy to kite a Marauder. That said, all you have to go is go on the catwalks. A good Marauder will almost never follow you up there and if they do, they're open to all kinds of abuse there.

[Chaosmagistrate]

In my opinion (and experience), a marauder will have a higher uptime than DPS sins, and similar uptime to tank sins thanks to charge being on such a small cooldown. However, you have to consider that a marauder has considerably more survivability than a DPS sin, and higher damage output than a tank sin. They're basically a tank and DPS sins rolled into one.

 

I can also give you the breakdown of maras vs PTs, but lets just say that PTs get 1 cooldown worth mentioning. That is a 25% damage reduction for 12 secs on a 2 minute cooldown. DPS PTs have NOWHERE near the survivability of marauders, and tank PTs have nowhere near their damage.

 

I'm not saying marauders are completely overpowered, however, I do believe they have too many defensive abilities on too short of a CD compared to the other DPS classes. Yes, they have more abilities to press than other classes, but that's way blown out of proportion. I have a marauder and it's really not that hard. In fact, I find DPS assassins harder to play.

 

In a blank context, on paper where you break and categorize things with bias, because true objectivity in any competitive environment is a load of bs, you can make cases that skew things.

 

It's unfair to just break everything down to gap closer/defensive cd/offensive cd/etc.

 

For example, Force Shroud and Saber Ward do different things and yes are considered defensive abilities in general but the situations they are used are myriadly different.

 

The knockdown(specced to be used oos) can also be considered a "gap closer" as it creates uptime, by my definitiion of what gap closing is(<---my bias).

 

My duo premade is always either a Focus Guardian or a random FTOM-spec Shadow(he gets bored easily) and we both understand that both classes have their synergies and that by isolating each ability and then putting them in categories means nothing.

 

Force Shroud is not only a defensive cooldown but a gap closer as it can be used to get out off CCs to maintain uptime. As you noted, Force Camo can be used to close distance, but it doesn't allow for consistent uptime, but allows for the Mara to close the gap to regain uptime.

 

PTs have nowhere near the survivability as Maras, depends on situation again. I will cede that armor class generally means jack all, but against like one or two classes it means something, and regardless of anyones opinion, the fact that it still works against one or two classes is sufficient and cannot be totally discredited. Not to mention, PTs have a ranged stun for gap closing and defensive breathing space, and an aoe stun for those situations as well. But maras get an AoE mezz, and so forth.

 

Nothing is black and white. That's the best part about MMOs is the sheer diveristy, and the fact that so many things can counter other things.

[skarlson]

Marauders can pretty much 1v1 anyone if they are played well. That right there should tell you something. The reasoning skills of people on these forums are severely lacking. It's ok for one class to be able to own anyone but another another. People whine about how strong sorcerers are 1v1 when they are actually pretty weak in most specs compared to a number of other classes and really shine more in gvg combat when left alone so they don't have to spend half the match running for their lives. Yet so many people cry about how overpowered they are and how its ridiculous that they can solo any other class when in reality that isn't true.

 

Just because the marauder requires more skill to play, if one even accepts that argument to be more true for them than for other classes which I am not convinced of, does not mean they should be able to own anyone they choose. They do huge amounts of damage, have huge survivability and you cannot truly get away from one unless they suck. There are some tricks you can use depending on your class to alleviate those issues some but marauders can also quickly adjust to such tactics and then they will not work.

[Anbokr]

guys i got 1v1d by a marauder plz nerf this is unacceptable.

 

Marauders are fine, they're the definition of a skill class. They don't have insane burst, they don't have stuns/knockbacks, and they aren't invincible. They have to use cooldowns efficiently, choose between utility from frenzy/zen, and positioning is everything.

[Chaosmagistrate]

Marauders can pretty much 1v1 anyone if they are played well. That right there should tell you something. The reasoning skills of people on these forums are severely lacking. It's ok for one class to be able to own anyone but another another. People whine about how strong sorcerers are 1v1 when they are actually pretty weak in most specs compared to a number of other classes and really shine more in gvg combat when left alone so they don't have to spend half the match running for their lives. Yet so many people cry about how overpowered they are and how its ridiculous that they can solo any other class when in reality that isn't true.

 

Just because the marauder requires more skill to play, if one even accepts that argument to be more true for them than for other classes which I am not convinced of, does not mean they should be able to own anyone they choose. They do huge amounts of damage, have huge survivability and you cannot truly get away from one unless they suck. There are some tricks you can use depending on your class to alleviate those issues some but marauders can also quickly adjust to such tactics and then they will not work.

 

Really? Now we resort to dueling as a way to balance the game?

 

31Madness sorcs and Republic equivalent embarass Maras/Sents. And they don't even have to try. I won't argue that Maras are hands down one of the "best" duelists, but NO MMO with multiple classes/specs/talent trees can be balanced around 1v1 and still be balanced around group combat. It simply is not possible. No MMO has ever gotten it right, and none ever will.

[skarlson]

guys i got 1v1d by a marauder plz nerf this is unacceptable.

 

Marauders are fine, they're the definition of a skill class. They don't have insane burst, they don't have stuns/knockbacks, and they aren't invincible. They have to use cooldowns efficiently, choose between utility from frenzy/zen, and positioning is everything.

 

Atypical response, the only possible reason anyone could possibly think there is something wrong with marauders is if they lost to one!!! Why? Because I say marauders are fine so that settles the issue.

[Aidank]

Skarl, as everyone has said 10,000 times, pvp isn't balanced around 1v1. We've got extremely potent cooldowns with long cds - of course we're going **** face in duels. That has absolutely nothing to do with how well we do in extremely cc/root heavy warzones.

[EternalFinality]

Marauders can pretty much 1v1 anyone if they are played well. That right there should tell you something.

 

The more people there are nearby, the less effective Marauders become.

 

Now, riddle me this, is this game about 1v1 or group PvP?

[Chaosmagistrate]

Skarl, as everyone has said 10,000 times, pvp isn't balanced around 1v1. We've got extremely potent cooldowns with long cds - of course we're going **** face in duels. That has absolutely nothing to do with how well we do in extremely cc/root heavy warzones.

 

I remember back dueling outside IF, there were stupid rules like no CDs greater than 5 minutes.

 

So I would only ever duel every ten minutes, so that Ice Block and Cold Snap were up. Of course I roflstomped people.

 

Or on my UD, I refused to duel unles WotF was up.

 

Dueling has its place in MMOs, but for balance concerns, not even close.

[skarlson]

Really? Now we resort to dueling as a way to balance the game?

 

31Madness sorcs and Republic equivalent embarass Maras/Sents. And they don't even have to try. I won't argue that Maras are hands down one of the "best" duelists, but NO MMO with multiple classes/specs/talent trees can be balanced around 1v1 and still be balanced around group combat. It simply is not possible. No MMO has ever gotten it right, and none ever will.

 

Would you use that same reasoning to defend sorcerers who are not nearly as strong as marauders 1v1? If you consider them as strong or stronger than marauders 1v1 it would be even more inconsistent if you said no and rejected the same reasoning to state sorcerers are fine. That is the problem with most arguments on this forum, most people will reject a certain line of reasoning in defense of a class they think needs nerfed then turn around and use the same reasoning to defend another class they have no issues with or want to preserve. So will you defend both? Will use the same reasoning to defend any of the other classes that people on the forums complain are to strong 1v1 because of x, y or z?

[Chaosmagistrate]

The more people there are nearby, the less effective Marauders become.

 

Now, riddle me this, is this game about 1v1 or group PvP?

 

Kind of reminds me of how Locks dominated 2v2 in S1 and S2, were decently represented in 3s, and were just MD *****es in 5s.

[skarlson]

Skarl, as everyone has said 10,000 times, pvp isn't balanced around 1v1. We've got extremely potent cooldowns with long cds - of course we're going **** face in duels. That has absolutely nothing to do with how well we do in extremely cc/root heavy warzones.

 

Except everyone has whined as though pvp IS balanced around 1v1 when discussing classes they want nerfed like sorcerers and sages. I've seen the same logic you and your supposed 10,000 others are using to defend marauders 1v1 capabilities be rejected when used to defend other classes on this forum. So, will you say sorcerers and sages are ok too then even if they are considered the kings of 1v1 and people whine about how they can't be locked down and killed or whatever? Will you defend other classes when people complain about their 1v1 capabilities?

Edited February 29, 2012 by skarlson

[Aidank]

Would you use that same reasoning to defend sorcerers who are not nearly as strong as marauders 1v1? If you consider them as strong or stronger than marauders 1v1 it would be even more inconsistent if you said no and rejected the same reasoning to state sorcerers are fine. That is the problem with most arguments on this forum, most people will reject a certain linereasoning in defense of a class they think needs nerfed then turn around and use the same reasoning to defend another class they have no issues with or want to preserve. So will you defend both? Will use the same reasoning to defend any of the other classes that people on the forums complain are to strong 1v1 because of x, y or z?

 

Pyrotech powertechs, tank assassins, and tank powertechs are all just about as good in 1v1s as marauders/sentinels are, I don't think any of them should be touched.

 

 

Accept everyone has whined as though pvp IS balanced around 1v1 when discussing classes they want nerfed like sorcerers and sages. I've seen the same logic you and your supposed 10,000 others are using to defend marauders 1v1 capabilities be rejected when used to defend other classes on this forum. So, will you say sorcerers and sages are ok too then even if they are considered the kings of 1v1 and people whine about how they can't be locked down and killed or whatever? Will you defend other classes when people complain about their 1v1 capabilities?

 

Sorcerers are overpowered because their array of crowd control, low ramp-up time on dps, AoE damage, and other team support utility makes them more useful in an 8v8 than any other class. I should know, I play one at 50.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Aidank

[skarlson]

Pyrotech powertechs, tank assassins, and tank powertechs are all just about as good in 1v1s as marauders/sentinels are, I don't think any of them should be touched.

 

Kudos to you then, you are one of the few people who are consistent in their viewpoints rather than hypocritical. I can respect that even if I disagree with your assessment.

[Anbokr]

Marauders in a nutshell: Pure dps class with high damage output, some defensive cooldowns, and group utility. No stuns, no snares (unless carnage--which is garbage), and no knockbacks. Pure damage--that's what the class is all about. The class is extremely vulnerable to roots/knockbacks--our charge is on a 12 second CD (annhilation, 15 for other specs) and doesn't stun/grant immunity to CCs. You can literally charge someone, get knocked back/slowed immediately and be useless for another 10 seconds.

 

News flash: EVERY single AC in this game has at least 3 defensive cooldowns that are strong and efficient; this isn't exclusive to marauders.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Anbokr

[Lightzzoutt]

Level 50 Sentinel. Full Champion.

 

 

I can openly say I know for a fact this class is not OP. I started doing wz's and not even hitting 75k. Now that I've learned my class and my enemies I'm easily topping the charts bc I know who to attack and when. I'm not leaping into combat and killing everthing.

 

I'm spotting my target. and focusing on 1 individual like all sents/maras should. If you are to dumb to not support the person being attacked by me that is you're fault. If you focus on a sentinel its as good as dead.

 

Same thing with merc and tracer missles. If you don't eliminate them they will wreak havoc. Same thing here. You have to eliminate enemies of threat. and If I'm putting pressure on you're squishies you have to take me out.

[Chaosmagistrate]

Would you use that same reasoning to defend sorcerers who are not nearly as strong as marauders 1v1? If you consider them as strong or stronger than marauders 1v1 it would be even more inconsistent if you said no and rejected the same reasoning to state sorcerers are fine. That is the problem with most arguments on this forum, most people will reject a certain line of reasoning in defense of a class they think needs nerfed then turn around and use the same reasoning to defend another class they have no issues with or want to preserve. So will you defend both? Will use the same reasoning to defend any of the other classes that people on the forums complain are to strong 1v1 because of x, y or z?

 

31Madness Sorcs are direct counters to Anni-Maras, in fact they are direct counters to most melee. I don't have a problem with that, as 31Madness can be countered with Rage Juggs/Maras, Snipers, and PTs.

 

1v1 is nothing but a novelty. Fighting your hard counter is just that. Your spec will always have something designed to neutralize it.

 

I don't defend any class. In fact, during the Ops nerfs, I advocated that the nerfs were overboard, and at the time, I didn't play an Sc or did I plan to.

 

I don't even consider Sorcs OP. Highly annoying as 20/21 hybrids, extremely difficult to maintain uptime as 31Madness, and as healers, pretty easy to shut down, if not outright kill.

 

It's just most people can't admit they got outplayed and its not the class that beat them, but the spec and more importantly- the player behind the spec.

[exphryl]

Kudos to you then, you are one of the few people who are consistent in their viewpoints rather than hypocritical. I can respect that even if I disagree with your assessment.

 

Again, it's hard to equate something like a Pyro to a Mara due to cooldowns. Maras will come out on top due to that, the other high burst classes have NOTHING even close to those abilities. Healing? Immunity shield? Vanish? GG

 

I've always personally wouldn't mind slightly lower burst but more survivability as a Pyro. Being alive doing lower damage is better then being dead doing no damage...

[jonnyshadow]

You know what I have to save myself from death?

 

Nothing.

 

Zero.

 

If I am going to die, I am going to die no ifs ands or buts about it.

 

Your move sentinel.

 

you have your range (can tell your a range char since you dont have anything) you have 26m on us...you hit us before we hit you + your suppose to kite which makes it a bit more trickier for us to hit you...plus if your a commando you have a knock back slow....vangaurds have slows...gunslinger got a knock back root...every class has something in their arsenal to make up for the other so called advantages another class has

[FlowShow]

Sentinels DPS and CD's make up for the lack of utilities/CC's.. Give us an AOE knockback so i can spam it on site of another player like most.

[dgrabs]

The same people complaining about marauders are the same people complaining about sorcerers.

 

Bads.

 

They can't figure out how to beat them, so they rush to the forums to QQ and demand a nerf.

 

As a marauder, do sorcs get me sometimes and I rage smash keyboard? Yes. But there were things I could have done to beat them. They aren't unbeatable like many claim they are. Some people fail to realize that a sorc running into a corner and healing himself is the equivalent of a dead sorc: ie they are out of the battle. Same goes for a mara/sent. If they've used those godly defensive CDs (wildly overblown btw, as they are easily countered) and gotten away from you, then they aren't on target and their effectiveness is slim to none.

 

So many people are narrow-minded and incapable of thinking on the next level. It's not always about killing someone. Forcing them out of the battle is sometimes just as good, if not better than a kill.

 

Maras don't need a nerf any more than sorcs do.

 

If you want to complain about a class, please for the love of god someone mention hybrid tank spec Assassins/Shadows

[AncientForce]

The same people complaining about marauders are the same people complaining about sorcerers.

 

Bads.

 

They can't figure out how to beat them, so they rush to the forums to QQ and demand a nerf.

 

As a marauder, do sorcs get me sometimes and I rage smash keyboard? Yes. But there were things I could have done to beat them. They aren't unbeatable like many claim they are. Some people fail to realize that a sorc running into a corner and healing himself is the equivalent of a dead sorc: ie they are out of the battle. Same goes for a mara/sent. If they've used those godly defensive CDs (wildly overblown btw, as they are easily countered) and gotten away from you, then they aren't on target and their effectiveness is slim to none.

 

So many people are narrow-minded and incapable of thinking on the next level. It's not always about killing someone. Forcing them out of the battle is sometimes just as good, if not better than a kill.

 

Maras don't need a nerf any more than sorcs do.

 

If you want to complain about a class, please for the love of god someone mention hybrid tank spec Assassins/Shadows

 

I lol'd when you said hybrid tank spec assassin/shadows. easy to beat if you know how.