Gut vs Incendiary Round for PvP

[hotfuss]

Most of the popular builds I see posted here get Gut for pvp. Why is that? Isnt Gut Kinetic dmg while Incendiary Round Elemental (which means it bypasses more defences)?

 

I personally use a 21 - 2 - 18 build, which may look weird, but the damage output of incendiary round and the free HiB spamfest is extremely more satisfying than going for Gut.

 

So what am I missing?

Edited February 29, 2012 by hotfuss

[Anacoluthe]

I guess the low ammo cost of gut could be one of the reasons people like it.

[hotfuss]

what you say is true but my build gives you free HiB proccs plus you regenerate a cell everytime you use one on a burning target so you are actually better off ammo wise.

[me_unknown]

actually your built is very interesting.

but there is another point why i think many are using gut:

you can have static surge, and more of the overall usefull talents from the tactics tree.

 

i'm not saying your build is worse, i just say depending on playstyle it may not be better.

[Zeel_Aldair]

I'm using this 28-13-0 spec right now, but with the change to DoTs not affecting node caps in the next patch I'd be interested in dropping Gut if there's anything particularly good to take instead of it.

 

I'd agree that there are more useful talents at the bottom of the Tactics tree than Assault Specialist for me, but I could spare a few points. Those would usually go into Heavy Stock in most builds I guess? Soldier's Endurance really isn't great per point, but every bit of Endurance helps.

[hotfuss]

I dont know what you guys prefer from the tactics tree the only big sacrifice I made is what you pointed out, that you lose the extra crit damage on stock strike, but thats up in the shield tree. I guess math can sort that out, 30% more crit dmg on stockstrike or a lot more HiB at no ammo cost + an unmitigated incendiary round. Edited February 29, 2012 by hotfuss

[Hethroin]

I run 31 assault Incendiary round is good damage, but it's also expensive. The best thing about is that it opens a fresh target to HIB from 30m out. Using Incendiary too much will quickly deplete your ammo. The 30m range nicety is somewhat reduced when you consider that you have 30m charge and pull with a heavier hitting SS, while your HIB does less damage. I suppose having the option to NOT charge/pull is good to have too. My thinking is that with charge and 30% more damage on SS the tactics talents that make it free are better than IR and a HIB reset talents that also make you pick up plasma cell improvements, which you will never use, along the way.

[Coramac]

I run 31 assault Incendiary round is good damage, but it's also expensive. The best thing about is that it opens a fresh target to HIB from 30m out.

 

^

 

One of the things a lot of people don't realize about Assault (and one of the reasons they have such horrible survivability) is that it is very effective at range. Shield and Tactics really require you to operate in a 0-10m range. Tactics arguably makes you operate in melee range depending on your talents. Assault is capable of anywhere within 0-30m. I rarely go into melee range voluntarily unless I'm going for a burst combo and want the higher HIB reset chance on Stock Strike.

[ezrafetch]

1. Your build is not "weird" - it's the often-used Carolina Parakeet build. It's highly effective, with a great mix of burst, tanky-ness, and reasonable resource management that few other classes have. Most PvPers actually don't use Tactics-based builds since you sacrifice Ion Cell and tanky-ness, especially for pugging/solo since Tactics requires, well, tactics and coordination. I see tons more Assault and Shield hybrids than Tactics specs. People probably post more about Tactics since there are few specs that do well in a PvP setting.

2. People use Gut in Stockstrike-focused builds (see: Iron Fist), since it's a cheaper DoT to manage than Incendiary Round. Since you're spamming more Stockstrikes (with CD resets and all), Gut becomes the more effective DoT since it's cheaper. Plus, even in Stockstrike-based builds, Gut's main use is to prevent node caps (though this is supposed to change in 1.1.5 with DoTs no longer affecting node caps).

3. As I said earlier, it's a cheap DoT. You also waste many less points in going for Gut than for going for Incendiary Round. The bottom two tiers of Tactics are much, much better than Assault's, especially if you're going for Ion Cell. If you have < 18 points to spend in a second tree, Tactics is a much better candidate for that than Assault. Assault's first few tiers are pretty useless, especially the ones that require Plasma Cell, which you aren't using if you're using Ion Cell.

4. You get Gut because you want Hold the Line, because Hold the Line is awesome. End of story.

Edited February 29, 2012 by ezrafetch

[Coramac]

4. You get Gut because you want Hold the Line, because Hold the Line is awesome. End of story.

 

Having a sign that says "Stun me" is far from awesome.

[ezrafetch]

Having a sign that says "Stun me" is far from awesome.

 

Having a sign that says "Save your stun for a better situation, because you can snare me" is even farther from awesome.

Edited February 29, 2012 by ezrafetch

[Blurps]

The purpose of most hybrid builds is to run in Ion Cell and add at least some DPS through Tactics or Assault to the durability of the tanking stance.

 

In Assault anything less than 18 points is pretty useless though, you need the HiB reset mechanic to get anything significant out of it and even then you waste some points when not running in Plasma Cell. Unfortunately that means you'll have to make some big sacrifices in the Shield tree.

 

Gut otoh will allow for a much more well rounded point distribution in Shield, the first two tiers of Tactics are heads and shoulders above those in Assault and complement Shield much more and with Storm as well as 35 sec Harpoon loosing the long range capabilities of the Parakeet build argueably doesn't hurt that much.

 

Imo both builds are fantastic, but the synergy between the trees is much better in Iron Fist than in C.Parakeet. Having the option to stay at 10-30m range can be extremely useful in pvp situations especially outside of warzones though and if you find yourself frequently wanting to disengage from the enemy it's probably your best option as far as hybrids go.

[Coramac]

Having a sign that says "Save your stun for a better situation, because you can snare me" is even farther from awesome.

 

Snare, Knockback, knockdown, Pull, etc.

 

Without stun immunity and/or interupt immunity, it's a mediocre ability. It's a one-legged man's version of CC immunity.

[Zeel_Aldair]

So okay, I haven't actually tested out Hold The Line before (always been too deep shield spec), but the tooltip says "Grants 8 seconds of immunity from all movement-impairing effects, knockdowns and physics and increases movement speed by 30%.".

 

So I took that to mean all snares/roots/knockdowns and knockbacks/pulls (that's the "physics" part), but I guess I'm thinking it's better than it is. All that AND a sprint. So what does it not work against?

 

I'm very unlikely to give up Storm for it anyway, but curious all the same.

[Coramac]

So okay, I haven't actually tested out Hold The Line before (always been too deep shield spec), but the tooltip says "Grants 8 seconds of immunity from all movement-impairing effects, knockdowns and physics and increases movement speed by 30%.".

 

So I took that to mean all snares/roots/knockdowns and knockbacks/pulls (that's the "physics" part), but I guess I'm thinking it's better than it is. All that AND a sprint. So what does it not work against?

 

I'm very unlikely to give up Storm for it anyway, but curious all the same.

 

It basically works against everything but stuns, disorients, and interupts. It's not terrible; it's just not good. It's average and definitely not a talent worth reaching for at 21 points into Tactics. If you are going more than 21 points in Tactics, you are going to have Pulse Generator. Hold the Line offers very minimal protection for getting off a Pulse Cannon against someone remotely competent. At a 30% movement speed boost, it's not a very good gap closer which is something that would benefit Tactics. And... it's only going to be a 13% movement speed increase if you have Battlefield Training (115% to 130%). It will give you a little better melee uptime on a target, but that's really about it.

 

It's a very solid 1 point ability. It's not a very solid 21 point ability. By this I mean, if you are going deep Tactics, it's definitely worth the single point. Otherwise, it's totally not worth it. This compared to going 18 points into Assault. You completely waste 3 talent points and pick up 2 weak talent (5 points) to pick up Ionic Accelerator and High Friction Bolts. That's an example of a reach that may be justifiable.

[Zeel_Aldair]

Great. Thanks very much for the assessment - that's exactly what I was looking for, and I'd agree then that it's excellent on its own but not worth the reach to get there, at least for me. Likewise though I'm not sure the deeper skills in Assault Specialist would suit my playstyle so well. But it's really good to hear everyone's opinions on the various builds. Still some tweaking required for me I think.

[ezrafetch]

It basically works against everything but stuns, disorients, and interupts. It's not terrible; it's just not good. It's average and definitely not a talent worth reaching for at 21 points into Tactics. If you are going more than 21 points in Tactics, you are going to have Pulse Generator. Hold the Line offers very minimal protection for getting off a Pulse Cannon against someone remotely competent. At a 30% movement speed boost, it's not a very good gap closer which is something that would benefit Tactics. And... it's only going to be a 13% movement speed increase if you have Battlefield Training (115% to 130%). It will give you a little better melee uptime on a target, but that's really about it.

 

It's a very solid 1 point ability. It's not a very solid 21 point ability. By this I mean, if you are going deep Tactics, it's definitely worth the single point. Otherwise, it's totally not worth it. This compared to going 18 points into Assault. You completely waste 3 talent points and pick up 2 weak talent (5 points) to pick up Ionic Accelerator and High Friction Bolts. That's an example of a reach that may be justifiable.

 

I honestly think you're underestimating what it already provides on a short 30s cooldown. Immunizing yourself to a knockback + snares/roots for 8s allows you to maintain uptime on your opponent, which will, more often than not, be the difference between the kill and the non-kill.

 

Scenario:

1. You get the jump on a Sorc.

2. Sorc makes you eat a stun. Sit through it, they can't burst you down fast enough.

3. Get back on the Sorc. Sorc attempts to use Overload to knock you back, so you immunize yourself with Hold the Line. You stay on them and damage them instead of having to find a way to re-close the gap, which means a whole lot for Tactics specs.

4. Win.

 

If they reverse the order and chain them (Overload >> Stun), you can Hold the Line through the Overload and eat the stun (especially if you're close to getting knocked off an edge). Especially, especially if they talent the 5s root on Overload, because they can just waltz away while you just sit there, without Hold the Line. Either way, you will win because you got them to blow 2 CCs, where you negate entirely the use of one. You can even continue to work through their bubble mezz if your Hold the Line is still up, which is key vs. the Sorcs that talent it. And this is worst-case scenario, vs. the class and spec that has the most CC/utility attached, Mercs and other casters are easy to deal with in comparison, you just have to out-DPS them, and/or interrupt the right skills for an easy win. That's really a separate issue to the efficacy of Hold the Line, though.

 

However, I would not recommend Tactics past 22, especially in PvP pug settings. with the higher tiered talents, it really requires group coordination to achieve anything, which cannot be guaranteed at all when pugging. However, I do think the 1/22/18 build, based off of Oozo's 23/18, is the best PvP spec for maining Tactics. It gives you the excellent general PvP utility of the lower part of Tactics, while gaining extra utility and some gap closing and CC immunity with Hold the Line, while still retaining the Ionic Accelerator proc awesome-ness of Assault. You'd obviously run Plasma Cell in this instance. High Energy Cell is really underpowered, actually, even with the ammo regen (in addition, it appears that the FRW talent might be buggy/broken in its current form, making it a total waste of points). Plasma Cell represents a greater DPS gain by far.

 

Also, attaching a stun immunity would make Hold the Line beyond overpowered with its current uptime percentage. Not one class has an absolute CC immunity ability. Then, giving out an absolute CC immunity ability, especially in a DPS spec like Tactics which can put out some pretty numbers (there'd also be no point to interrupt immunity either as the only activate/channel ability for Vanguards is Pulse Cannon)...it would be a wrecking ball ability. At that point, with those extra immunities, it would just be an "EZ I WIN" button and wreck the game balance. You'd see 19/22 specs a lot more, I'd imagine, since they'd be pretty tanky yet still manage decent DPS and have the greatest utility in the game with 27% uptime on an absolute CC immunity skill, 67% uptime interrupt, 35s Grapple, snare-on-demand, Stockstrikes flying around like crazy. You'd lose the Storm gap closer, but with a Sprint + absolute CC immunity ability, nothing is stopping you from getting to your target. Ever. And everything would die. Which, come to think of it, I wouldn't mind, but for balance's sake...

 

That is to say, I prefer pure Assault specs for DPS, but I need to give the 1/22/18 a better try before coming to any conclusions. It certainly is an effective spec and is probably the best you can do for Tactics PvP.

Edited March 1, 2012 by ezrafetch

[Raggok]

Both Gut and Incendiary Round are going to have greatly reduced value in WZs once DoTs can't stop caps. It's looking like shield builds are going to be most effective in rated WZs when it comes to winning objectives and group play.

 

As far as solo DPS builds, I still like the Tactics/Assault Hybrid for it's mobility. And, Hold the Line is just a great ability. Just think about it's uses in Huttball or running door to door in Voidstar. Not all abilities should be graded as deathmatch abilities. Hold the Line is a topnotch ability when it comes to WINNING warzones.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Raggok

[Blurps]

Not sure why HtL is getting so much hate lately. Being immune to roots, snares and knockbacks for 8 out of every 30 seconds is invaluable for a pure close quarters combatant. It may not be as flashy as Storm, but it's just as useful.

[Coramac]

I honestly think you're underestimating what it already provides on a short 30s cooldown. Immunizing yourself to a knockback + snares/roots for 8s allows you to maintain uptime on your opponent, which will, more often than not, be the difference between the kill and the non-kill.

 

I'll address this before explaining why your scenarios don't work (against competent people at least) because I think a lot of people are looking at it the same way you are which is in isolation.

 

Hold the Line looks good on paper, but when you consider how the various specs are operating, it gets a greatly diminished value.

 

If you are going an Assault build, Hold the Line's only value to you would be that it helps with kiting. Assault functions as a variable range build and with high versitility (being able to burst or pressure from 0-30m). Assault is NOT a melee build. Going deep Assault basically eliminates the need for Hold the Line as it's primary benefit is increase melee uptime. When you reach for Hold the Line, you give up significant burst and ranged effectiveness. You gain essentially nothing going from Assault to your hybrid build. You gain a marginal edge on ammo but lose damage, are forced into melee for talents, lose survivability (range is a huge boost to longevity), and lose Assaults very legitimate 30m attack range. You don't really gain in utility either. Assault has some very nice utility. Personally, even though you don't see it much, I love Reflexive Shield when I have a healer. It's awesome. However, I don't have Degauss which would synergize with it. I don't really need snare removal in Assault. This is the real beauty and strength of Assault that a lot of people do not play to. You engage targets based on their weak range not your strongest range (which is melee to be fair but 10m is only very slightly weaker; the 30m engagement range is primary for initiation, target swapping, and pressure).

 

If you are going Shield spec, you have two primary routes- pure Combat Support (Ironfist) or support with increase pressure / damage (Caroline). Storm offers far superior mobility than does Hold the Line. They are different and have some advantages and disadvantages, but Storm as a complete package is superior. The root is far better for a support spec (if you are going Shield at all, you are primarily support). Storm functions as a legitimate gap closer. Strong talents selections all the way through Storm (this is a huge advantage). Vertical mobility is very nice for Civil War and Huttball (especially the latter). Hold the Line does let you swap between targets better and is not related to Resolve. Those are it's advantages vs. Storm. As a result, if you are going support, Hold the Line is an unjustifiable reach even though support builds are melee oriented. Uptime is also less important here as support's goal isn't as focused on damage. Additionally, the Carolina build does maintain some of Assault's 10m range power and is thus less impacted by the effects that Hold the Line protects against.

 

A deep Tactics build (very viable although niche) actually does make good use out of Hold the Line. This is a pressure build. Pressure builds are great damage assist builds and no Trooper build puts on pressure like Tactics with HEC. It's a pure melee build. It doesn't operate effectively outside melee range. Hold the Line is excellent here for superior uptime. It could really use interupt protection to help with Pulse Generator, but it still works well. This build brings is the most ammo friendly spec by a long shot. Additionally, by going 31 points for Fire Pulse, you pick up some non-trivial burst. You get increased crit damage and a very nice ability with delayed damage for 1 ammo.

 

The */2*/18 build gives up a tremendous amount to get HIB resets that it has no business getting with 21 points in Tactics. It loses significant pressure and ammo regeneration by dropping HEC for Plasma Cell. It picks up several weaker CDR talents to avoid the HEC talents. When you run through the spec from a cost / benefit perspective, it really falls apart because it reaches for two non-synergistic talents- Hold the Line and Ionic Accelerator. Both deep Assault and deep Tactics have superior burst. Assault has a range advantage that negates the need for Hold the Line. Tactics gets Hold the Line and superior pressure. Both have superior survivability as Assault gets ranged and Reflexive Shield and Tactics gets Shock Absorbers. Both get additional abilities that play to the strenghts of the specs with Fire Pulse and Assault Plastique. This build has the same playstyle of a deep Tactics build but is weaker in virtually every phase of PvP than a deep Tactics build. That being said, this build does have one thing that it does better than any Trooper build and arguably any other build of any other class- melee kiting. Between Sweltering Heat and Hold the Line, it is absolutely trivial to kite melee classes. However, this isn't really a good advantage to have in the overwhelming majority of PvP encounters, and Assault does it pretty well already.

 

Scenario:

1. You get the jump on a Sorc.

2. Sorc makes you eat a stun. Sit through it, they can't burst you down fast enough.

3. Get back on the Sorc. Sorc attempts to use Overload to knock you back, so you immunize yourself with Hold the Line. You stay on them and damage them instead of having to find a way to re-close the gap, which means a whole lot for Tactics specs.

4. Win.

 

Win occurs in #2 as the Sorc improperly leads with a stun. Additionally, you need to use Hold the Line before Overload in #3.

 

If they reverse the order and chain them (Overload >> Stun), you can Hold the Line through the Overload and eat the stun (especially if you're close to getting knocked off an edge). Especially, especially if they talent the 5s root on Overload, because they can just waltz away while you just sit there, without Hold the Line.

 

You have to use Hold the Line before the Overload. It's going to put up a very recognizable graphic. If the Sorc uses Overload with that graphic up, he's a bad Sorc. He's going to stun you, get range, then Overload you when Hold the Line is down. You can trinket out, but at best in this situation, it's going to get you marginally better uptime and defintiely not a full 8 seconds.

 

High Energy Cell is really underpowered, actually, even with the ammo regen (in addition, it appears that the FRW talent might be buggy/broken in its current form, making it a total waste of points). Plasma Cell represents a greater DPS gain by far.

 

High Energy Cell is very underrated.

 

Also, attaching a stun immunity would make Hold the Line beyond overpowered with its current uptime percentage.

 

Agreed. It would definitely need to be tweaked. It could be done with increasing the CD, decreasing the duration, a combination of both, or something in a different direction (IE short stun immunity).

 

That is to say, I prefer pure Assault specs for DPS, but I need to give the 1/22/18 a better try before coming to any conclusions. It certainly is an effective spec and is probably the best you can do for Tactics PvP.

 

Don't understimate the power of a deep Tactics build. I don't run it, but it is a very effective build.

 

Not sure why HtL is getting so much hate lately. Being immune to roots, snares and knockbacks for 8 out of every 30 seconds is invaluable for a pure close quarters combatant. It may not be as flashy as Storm, but it's just as useful.

 

You actually answered your own question. Assault isn't a pure close quarters build. Storm is better for support builds. Tactics is pure close combat and benefits from it. As I said, if you go deep Tactics, it's a very solid talent. It's not good for anything else and this is why it is overrated.

[ceelaniri]

If you are going an Assault build, Hold the Line's only value to you would be that it helps with kiting. Assault functions as a variable range build and with high versitility (being able to burst or pressure from 0-30m).

 

Sorry for just picking on this small point in your huge analysis

 

I m not yet 50 on my vanguard but i intend to pick hold the line mainly for the kiting ability.

Given the amount of gap reducer and CC, as an assault spec you are bound to be in melee range a few time. Combined with degauss, htl seems to be a very good way to run away from bad positioning and regaining a decent range or finishing someone and running somewhere to be forgotten.

 

I believe it offers more exit opportunities than storm since you dont need target and that the tab target is horrid in the first place. Therefore, I would assume that it s easier to LOS and kite with it; making it very valuable.

[Coramac]

Sorry for just picking on this small point in your huge analysis

 

I m not yet 50 on my vanguard but i intend to pick hold the line mainly for the kiting ability.

Given the amount of gap reducer and CC, as an assault spec you are bound to be in melee range a few time. Combined with degauss, htl seems to be a very good way to run away from bad positioning and regaining a decent range or finishing someone and running somewhere to be forgotten.

 

I believe it offers more exit opportunities than storm since you dont need target and that the tab target is horrid in the first place. Therefore, I would assume that it s easier to LOS and kite with it; making it very valuable.

 

It's a legitimate kiting pick and the */2*/18 build is amazing for kiting. The problem really lies in that if you have the points in Tactics to get Hold the Line, you are really are a melee. Kiting in this build while very effective, doesn't do much damage while kiting. Assault does substantial damage while kiting. When kiting, Assault only loses a higher chance to proc a HIB reset and the increased damage of a Stock Strike over Ion Pulse while in melee range. You don't lose the interupt as any class you are going to kite isn't going to have anything to interupt. If you are pillar hump a caster, HtL is of marginal benefit as your going to be fighting at a range only Assault has the capability to do with any kind of legitimacy.

 

That said, it's pretty effective in 1v1 situations vs. Shadows, Concealment Operatives, and Guardians. A really good Marauder is going to be able to very largely circumvent your kiting ability, especially a Combat equivilent spec. I think Assault is preferable against a good Marauder for kiting due to increased damage output.

[ceelaniri]

It's a legitimate kiting pick and the */2*/18 build is amazing for kiting. The problem really lies in that if you have the points in Tactics to get Hold the Line, you are really are a melee. Kiting in this build while very effective, doesn't do much damage while kiting. Assault does substantial damage while kiting. When kiting, Assault only loses a higher chance to proc a HIB reset and the increased damage of a Stock Strike over Ion Pulse while in melee range. You don't lose the interupt as any class you are going to kite isn't going to have anything to interupt. If you are pillar hump a caster, HtL is of marginal benefit as your going to be fighting at a range only Assault has the capability to do with any kind of legitimacy.

 

That said, it's pretty effective in 1v1 situations vs. Shadows, Concealment Operatives, and Guardians. A really good Marauder is going to be able to very largely circumvent your kiting ability, especially a Combat equivilent spec. I think Assault is preferable against a good Marauder for kiting due to increased damage output.

 

well so far, in 1vs1 my tactic has been to pepper them for afar with IR/HIB/Sticky and hammer shot a lot and when I am inevitably engaged in close combat I can use ion pulse/stock strike/gut and hib when it procs which is actually where the dmg lay.

 

it has worked fairly well so far but that s in the 10-49 bracket as melee class players dont seem to expect all the dmg output to be at that short range. (ion pulse hurts and put a snare+dot on top of that).

 

i ll see how i fare with it once 50 but so far i really like it although ranged fight seems to be a bit longwinded with that kind of "long range" dps.

 

i ve found it very good at harassing people at nod.

[Blurps]

if you go deep Tactics, it's a very solid talent..

 

I guess we can all agree on that and I don't think anyone claimed it's a must have for every Vanguard. There are plenty builds around that will work just fine without it.

 

Not a big Tactics fan myself, my Vigilance Guardian works much better for the same purpose. For me anyway.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Blurps

[grandmasterub]

PvP tactics should run ion cell imo and just get in their face. It works for me. Its not bursty but they aren't aloud to ignore me and I stand up well.

 

Gut>fire pulse>SS>HiB>ion spam

 

Repeat with cryo/pulse cannon as necessary.