Wish you could change advanced classes, great idea!

[Maltra]

"Their reasons suck" is a non-argument. Its also irrelevant to the discussion.

 

There's a name for that as well.

 

 

 

I'm not baiting anyone. If you can't put your anger aside over a topic like this, that's your problem.

 

If i explained once (and i'm sure i did it more than once) in all these months why their reasons suck (and it's always the same 3-4 reasons really, so it's not hard) to this day i can just say their reasons sucks. I'm not required to type in every single reply i make what has been said in all these months.

 

You're just here to argue semantics (cause you can't possibly argue anything intelligent about the real matter at hand) and bait people into being reported. I'm sorry but you're out of luck, it's not gonna happen.

[aznthecapn]

If i explained once (and i'm sure i did it more than once) in all these months why their reasons suck (and it's always the same 3-4 reasons really, so it's not hard) to this day i can just say their reasons sucks. I'm not required to type in every single reply i make what has been said in all these months.

 

You're just here to argue semantics (cause you can't possibly argue anything intelligent about the real matter at hand) and bait people into being reported. I'm sorry but you're out of luck, it's not gonna happen.

 

See, I've been here for months as well. And I've never seen you. I'm not going to rehash everything that's been said. All the more reason why this subject needs to go away for a while. I will repeat something I've typed two times already - just for you.

 

The reasoning for both sides has been laid out many, many times. Its in threads dozens of pages long. The reasoning isn't going to change - there are no new ideas. The only thing that may change in this grand scheme is the players. Down the road - three months, six months, twelve months - people might change their mind about how the classes work. Some feature of the game may change and everyone sees them differently. You might think "nope, changing AC is wrong". I might suddenly decide "you know, those guys were right all those months ago - we need AC swapping". Who knows. But for now and for a while, its a dead horse. The developers said no, they know our reasoning, we need to move on for a while. Let it marinate. See how we feel a few patches down the road.

[Maltra]

See, I've been here for months as well. And I've never seen you. I'm not going to rehash everything that's been said. All the more reason why this subject needs to go away for a while. I will repeat something I've typed two times already - just for you.

 

The reasoning for both sides has been laid out many, many times. Its in threads dozens of pages long. The reasoning isn't going to change - there are no new ideas. The only thing that may change in this grand scheme is the players. Down the road - three months, six months, twelve months - people might change their mind about how the classes work. Some feature of the game may change and everyone sees them differently. You might think "nope, changing AC is wrong". I might suddenly decide "you know, those guys were right all those months ago - we need AC swapping". Who knows. But for now and for a while, its a dead horse. The developers said no, they know our reasoning, we need to move on for a while. Let it marinate. See how we feel a few patches down the road.

 

The fact that i'm not inclined to plague the forums about the same topic for months over and over again like some others do doesn't mean i haven't been here, reading, and facepalming my *** off about it.

 

As i already stated in a reply you swiftly dismissed with the usual supponent tone telling me i have no idea what i'm talking about, "no ac switching" was a decision dicated by money, because for now it's more profitable for developers to have people spend gametime ($) to roll the same class twice to play its different set of specs. I have no doubts whatsoever that in a few months when things settle down and utility, convenience, and gameplay mechanics that actually make sense regardless of money, will be what's important, ac switching will be allowed.

 

I just hope the game won't be dead by then, because bioware seems to have this terrible habit of implementing mandatory features too late.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Maltra

[aznthecapn]

As i already stated in a reply you swiftly dismissed with the usual supponent tone telling me i have no idea what i'm talking about, "no ac switching" was a decision dicated by money, because for now it's more profitable for developers to have people spend gametime ($) to roll the same class twice to play its different set of specs. I have no doubts whatsoever that in a few months when things settle down and utility, convenience, and gameplay mechanics that actually make sense regardless of money, will be what's important, ac switching will be allowed.

 

I saw it, I just thought you were wrong. You have no evidence to support that argument. You're making wild, unsubstantiated assumptions about an industry you nothing about from the inside. Wait - I shouldn't assume that. Are you a major market MMO developer? The key thing that has mattered in MMOs remains today - choice. And the consequences that stem from that choice. We all made one when we picked our class. Now we can enjoy it or leave.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Why did you avoid the actual question and reply with something that doesn't have anything to do with what we were saying? You brought the example up, not me. Now you want to stray away from it cause you've realized my point of view actually makes sense and your world is crumbling down all around you?

 

About what you just replied on the other hand, i don't want to roll an alt in order to play one of my classes specs. I can justify alts for actually different classes, and i have as a matter of fact 5 lvl 50s, but i'm not gonna roll an alt to play what's basically a glorified spec of a class that i already have.

 

Besides, alts are just that, alts. And they get the attention they deserve: not much. I want to play the class i rolled, which is a trooper, to its fullest and i can't do that because half of its specs are denied to me due to this moronic ac system.

 

Your arguments don't make sense. If you are a Commando, it is because you rolled a Commando. A Commando is a different CLASS than a Vanguard, just like a Guardian is a different CLASS than a Vanguard. I'd say Guardians and Vanguards are closer together, as they are slightly different mechanics to do the same roles, than Commandos and Vanguards, as they perform drastically different roles healer vs tank.

 

"Specs" of a class are concentrating on different aspects of class elements that already exist. All Commandos have healing abilities, healer-spec Commandos are just better at healing. No Vanguards have healing abilities, which precludes healing specs. A healing-specced Commando is NOT a just another spec of Vanguard . . . it is a completely different class.

 

Just like back in DAoC, my Wizard and my friend's Theurgist were both advanced classes of Elementalists, but they were completely different classes, despite sharing some abilities inherited from the base class. (The level-based Earth and Frost abilities were shared).

[Maltra]

I saw it, I just thought you were wrong. You have no evidence to support that argument. You're making wild, unsubstantiated assumptions about an industry you nothing about from the inside. Wait - I shouldn't assume that. Are you a major market MMO developer? The key thing that has mattered in MMOs remains today - choice. And the consequences that stem from that choice. We all made one when we picked our class. Now we can enjoy it or leave.

 

Yeah, people were saying the same about alignment choices and color crystals, guess what? Choice isn't what matters in mmos today, it's convenience and functionality... and of course, money.

 

I'm not a major market MMO developer, although you could say my job is pretty similar, but even so, it doesn't take any sort of graduation or anything to SEE that money is what's behind the ac choice really.. game is new, people are more prone to roll characters cause they aren't that bored yet, so it only makes sense to make them WASTE gametime money rolling the same class twice. It's pretty common for games to make things easier/faster/more accessible after a while they're out.. it's no secret. This ac business is just a twisted take on wasting people's time.

 

I could make an example, it's not the same thing but is fairly similar, on wow in the past they didn't just allow you to race change to a newly released race, because they KNEW that (at least some) people were going to roll them no matter what and spend 1-2 months gametime that way, after that, the company made what it could out of it, booya paid race changes to the new races! This ac business is really no different, i just hope they simply allow it and not make it a paid service though.

 

And yeah, we can leave, as a matter of fact my whole guild did, and so will i, reason why i'm posting.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Maltra

[Deewe]

Sadly it's an argument that will never end.

 

I'm totally for it. The problem is too many people believe what Bioware tells them, that an Advanced Class is a seperate Class. But it's not. If you have a Powertech and a Mercenary, you still get called a Bounty Hunter, still go to the Bounty Hunter trainer, still get a good majority of the same abilities and still play through the Bounty Hunter storyline.

 

Advanced Classes are nothing more than glorified specs, much like a Holy Paladin or a Retribution Paladin...or a Feral Druid and a Moonkin Druid.

That's the issue.

 

Nobody has any problem in Wow with Druids being able to DPS, heal or tank and even more switch between two totally opposed templates in one click, gear and UI included!

 

Say what you want but too often people loved that, on my druid, I was instantly being able to switch from healer to tank to fill in a now missing or hard to find role. Never ever heard anyone saying I was cheating nor stealing the loot nor not knowing how to play my class and even less breaking the immersion factor nor playing the easy way.

 

To the contrary people respected that I took the time to master, spec and gear properly my character.

 

BTW in Rift we have like 5 templates per character, never ever seen anyone complaining about this. And it's the only MMO so far in which I saw LFM DPS!!!

[aznthecapn]

Yeah, people were saying the same about alignment choices and color crystals, guess what? Choice isn't what matters in mmos today, it's convenience and functionality... and of course, money.

 

That's not correct. Choice in gaming always matters. The great challenge for developers is to balance the growing desire for convenience of today's gamers (and people in general) with the tenants that made roleplaying games so fun in the past. D&D, the originator of what we do now, was a choice game. "Where do you want to go?" "Left." "How do you want to open the chest?" "Force it." BOOM! "A trap explodes reducing you to 20% health and a skeleton spawns. What do you want to do next?" That's choice. You make it, you're stuck. Hell, even Mario Bros. had hard line choices. Jump over the green shell Koopa or jump on him and then hit the shell and risk landing poorly and dieing.

 

Its a difficult balance and right now, the developers are sticking true to the old style of RPGs and forcing players to live with their major choices. I do think there are ways we can make these choices less restrictive (allowing AC changing as you level then pick one at 50) but, all in all, its still a choice at the end of the day.

 

on wow in the past they didn't just allow you to race change to a newly released race, because they KNEW that (at least some) people were going to roll them no matter what and spend 1-2 months gametime that way

 

Actually, that's not true. You were able to race change on Day One of Cataclysm. You could actually buy your race change before Cataclysm released, let it sit there on your account unused and then, when you logged in after Cat released, you could click it and change to a Goblin or Worgen. Paid race changes were not implemented until after Draenei and Blood Elves were added.

[aznthecapn]

BTW in Rift we have like 5 templates per character, never ever seen anyone complaining about this. And it's the only MMO so far in which I saw LFM DPS!!!

 

Rift will be free to play soon. It was offering free 20 levels before it was a year old.

 

I don't recommend planting your flag on a sinking ship.

[defiantlegacy]

Absolutely not, if you want to play a different class, then roll a different class.

 

Utter laziness

[DorkTrooper]

We're already getting dual spec. No need for changing advanced class, especially this early in the game. It's BW's call of course, but I would rather not have every character have all options (crystals, alignment gear, ac abilities) available on a whim, because then what's the point of even having alignment, classes, or even factions? I'm not interested in a free-for-all.

[Deewe]

Rift will be free to play soon. It was offering free 20 levels before it was a year old.

 

I don't recommend planting your flag on a sinking ship.

LMAO!!!

 

You know SWTOR boat is sinking even faster than Rift right? We lost roundly half the player base in less than 2 months.

 

There's also a slight difference, in the other game I never ever saw a poll like this.

Out of 1.5k paying customers less than half like the game in its current state.

 

Finally Rift, like it or not, has a better engine, better textures, smoother FPS, better UI, better PVE and PVP content, a more balanced game, more gear choice and character customization, isn't limited to one type of weapon per class, has more social features, faster updates, better communication with its player base all of that delivering highly polished content, not half baked one.

 

One is truly a MMO while the other is a, for now, fair co-op game.

 

 

Speaking of AC switching and talent trees Rift beats TOR so much that you have to be either blind or a dev in disguise not to admit it.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Deewe

[Raximillian]

Yeah, people were saying the same about alignment choices and color crystals, guess what? Choice isn't what matters in mmos today, it's convenience and functionality... and of course, money.

 

I'm not a major market MMO developer, although you could say my job is pretty similar, but even so, it doesn't take any sort of graduation or anything to SEE that money is what's behind the ac choice really.. game is new, people are more prone to roll characters cause they aren't that bored yet, so it only makes sense to make them WASTE gametime money rolling the same class twice. It's pretty common for games to make things easier/faster/more accessible after a while they're out.. it's no secret. This ac business is just a twisted take on wasting people's time.

 

I could make an example, it's not the same thing but is fairly similar, on wow in the past they didn't just allow you to race change to a newly released race, because they KNEW that (at least some) people were going to roll them no matter what and spend 1-2 months gametime that way, after that, the company made what it could out of it, booya paid race changes to the new races! This ac business is really no different, i just hope they simply allow it and not make it a paid service though.

 

And yeah, we can leave, as a matter of fact my whole guild did, and so will i, reason why i'm posting.

 

There is such a thing as too much convenience. Why have 4 different stats? Just have one, much more "convenient". Why have light/medium/heavy armor? Lets just have "armor", much more "convenient", etc, etc. All of those changes would detract from the game.

 

Sure, AC respec would be "convenient", but it would also make the classes much more fuzzy. Why even have advanced classes after that? just have different specs. Adding AC respec would blur the line between classes, and all in the name of convenience.

 

Also people still misunderstand what a spec is. It stands for specialization, not reclassification. It focuses your class for a specific role, not change your class altogether.

[aznthecapn]

LMAO!!!

 

You know SWTOR boat is sinking even faster than Rift right? We lost roundly half the player base in less than 2 months.

 

There's also a slight difference, in the other game I never ever saw a poll like this.

Out of 1.5k paying customers less than half like the game in its current state.

 

Finally Rift, like it or not, has a better engine, better textures, smoother FPS, better UI, better PVE and PVP content, a more balanced game, more gear choice and character customization, isn't limited to one type of weapon per class, has more social features, faster updates, better communication with its player base all of that delivering highly polished content, not half baked one.

 

One is truly a MMO while the other is a, for now, fair co-op game.

 

 

Speaking of AC switching and talent trees Rift beats TOR so much that you have to be either blind or a dev in disguise not to admit it.

 

And yet Rift is still dieing. I think its more a statement on MMOs today than it is about the class system.

[KahnyaGnorc]

LMAO!!!

 

You know SWTOR boat is sinking even faster than Rift right? We lost roundly half the player base in less than 2 months.

 

There's also a slight difference, in the other game I never ever saw a poll like this.

Out of 1.5k paying customers less than half like the game in its current state.

 

Finally Rift, like it or not, has a better engine, better textures, smoother FPS, better UI, better PVE and PVP content, a more balanced game, more gear choice and character customization, isn't limited to one type of weapon per class, has more social features, faster updates, better communication with its player base all of that delivering highly polished content, not half baked one.

 

One is truly a MMO while the other is a, for now, fair co-op game.

 

 

Speaking of AC switching and talent trees Rift beats TOR so much that you have to be either blind or a dev in disguise not to admit it.

 

I played Rift, I wanted to like Rift, the multi-class/soul system was interesting. The rest of the game? rather dull and boring. Main was a Riftstalker (Rogue-tank), and I got her to the mid-30s before boredom set fully in.

 

The most important factor for me is "Is it fun?" and TOR already beat Rift for me. ymmv.

[Bielduwyn]

Its a difficult balance and right now, the developers are sticking true to the old style of RPGs and forcing players to live with their major choices. I do think there are ways we can make these choices less restrictive (allowing AC changing as you level then pick one at 50) but, all in all, its still a choice at the end of the day.

 

I think an AC swap at level 50 is a risky idea. Particularly with a class like the Consular/Inquisitor and the Smuggler/Agent, the two ACs offer very different playstyles (not to mention roles), suddenly dropping all the new skills the other AC has to offer on them would just hopelessly confuse them. IF there would ever be a switch (but I personally hope not), it would ideally be after Coruscant/Dromund Kaas when a player had some time to sample his/her class and was capable of forming an idea of what it's all about without getting a deluge of new skills dropped onto them.

[CorellianWannabe]

Actually yes they will.

 

The very idea that people won't have use this system is BS and has been shown to be BS from the first time it came up.

 

People will always be expected to play the FotM class, and if you can change AC's you'll be expected to change your AC to what ever the FotM is.

 

So get some assertive training and say no? If peer pressure controls you then I don't know what to say-I'm sorry?

[CorellianWannabe]

I 3rd this..

 

No to AC switching.. Either research more, or roll another character..

 

The same should apply to respecs- research the talents before spending. Roll an alt for another role. No switching to accomodate guilds who pressure players to tank or heal.

 

BTW shouldn't it be on Bioware to explain the AC differences rather than on players to hunt down videos and guides?

[CorellianWannabe]

It does affect those opposed to it. It means we'll be grouping with people who aren't any good at any of there characters and dont take responibility for their lazy playign considering all the info is right there for them when they make the choice. It also means there's more people complaining about X adn cuasing the game to be dumbed down to the point of pokemon standards like WoW.

 

Choices have consequences. Its no different then picking a Mage thinking i'll be bad *** and hating it then swapping to a rogue. Especially if you lok at the Sith Inquistor / Assasin the classes play differently one is a caster where the other is a stealing melee class with some casting abilities.

 

If you can't play the easier class in the game and cast some spells properly how are you going to handle the sith assasin? If you can't play a game thats fairly easy other than some class choices and tree builds then go back to WoW where its about to become so easy your 5 year old could play it competently and collect all the pokemon.

 

How is that different from respecs? I assume you're opposed to those as well? BTW there will always be players that are bad at the game-even those that have played the same for 50 levels and have never respecced.

 

Choices have consequences-that's why Bioware took out companion deaths right?

 

So why are you here playing this 'easy' game? I hear Everquest is free to play now! Hell, download Rogue-it's super hardcore!

[RedOmen]

An Advanced Class is NOT a spec. End story, end discussion. They said there were 8 classes to play in the game, but there are in fact 16. I've seen some people call what bioware is calling classes as 'stories'. That may be more accurate. NO AC changing. I might add that I'm sitting in THE WORST AC (Sniper) of all with no flexiblity and I say NO.

[CorellianWannabe]

Absolutely not, if you want to play a different class, then roll a different class.

 

Utter laziness

 

If you want to play a different spec, roll another toon.

 

Complete and utter laziness

[Costantino]

If you want to play a different spec, roll another toon.

 

Complete and utter laziness

 

AC and Talent trees are two different things.

[Dayfax]

Because spacebar'ing through 30 hours of class story is the definition of fun & will totally keep people subscribing. Edited March 4, 2012 by Dayfax

[Xanikk]

Please god no. I don't want my assassin that I rolled to become useless since I have a sorc. :/

[aznthecapn]

I think an AC swap at level 50 is a risky idea. Particularly with a class like the Consular/Inquisitor and the Smuggler/Agent, the two ACs offer very different playstyles (not to mention roles), suddenly dropping all the new skills the other AC has to offer on them would just hopelessly confuse them. IF there would ever be a switch (but I personally hope not), it would ideally be after Coruscant/Dromund Kaas when a player had some time to sample his/her class and was capable of forming an idea of what it's all about without getting a deluge of new skills dropped onto them.

 

You misunderstand. The premise behind the idea is that you could switch as you wanted to while you leveled to decide which advanced class you prefer. The moment you hit 50 a box pops up and asks you if you want to keep your current AC or switch to the other. There's giant text in all caps telling you "PICK EXTREMELY CAREFULLY - WHICHEVER YOU SELECT NOW WILL BECOME PERMANENT. YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO CHANGE AGAIN AFTER YOU CLICK THE BUTTON BELOW." Then, just for good measure, a window will pop up when you make your selection "ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE?! THINK NOW. REALLY MAKE SURE YOU WANT TO BE A (insert AC of choice here) FOR THE REST OF THE TIME YOU PLAY THIS GAME. THERE'S NO TURNING BACK ONCE YOU CLICK YES."

 

If people STILL screw that up, they should be wearing a hockey helmet and coloring pictures for the rest of their life.