The thought that WoW has more endgame content

[Ngamok]

OP is right in one regard. WoW has dumbed down most of the content for casuals to play because that is their greatest population.

 

But I believe (my own opinion) that WoW has killed MMOs. Every MMO that comes out today people expect free stuff in terms of loot (TBC introduced the first of get tokens for loot model) because this loot is easily farmable in a short amount of time. Then people come to the forums and complain they have nothing to do because they farmed all their gear in 2 weeks. They also expect that every game have Battlegrounds and arenas which sort of kills open world PvP because most people will just sit in the major hub and queue from there. Then they come to the forums and complain that the world seems dead.

 

Also, games need to stop copying classes. Otherwise you'll always have the broken classes each game has to offer. WoW has gone from one end to the other in terms of class balance. Even arenas had broken mechanics. RMP anyone? RIFT had to nerf Pyro Mages, Riftblade warriors, and then proceed to make marksman rogues op. Even CoH had to nerf fire tanks because of the imbalance it caused. If Devs stop making these kinds of classes, there would be less complaining. Why do they even make something so strong and then think it would be ok? Who didn't see the Operative / Scoundrel as a class that would never get nerfed? It's because they said, oh look rogues in WoW were popular, let's do the same thing here and give them stun lock.

 

They need to add world events like RIFT has to get more people out. My server was always bustling with activity because people were out doing the daily raid rift + world events for the purple shards for loot (WoW model). RIFT's story was weak though and I lost interest in it pretty fast. The soul system was the best part of it.

[Tamoe]

Fruity Pebbles beat the snot out of Lucky Charms and everybody knows it.

 

To deny that makes you a lepreboi.

 

lol post fanboi.

fruity pebbles was great till all the noobs complained about

it had too many flavors. It was no problem for experienced

cereal eaters to group up the pebbles floating in the milk

and eat what they wanted.

but all the noobs complaining got it nerfed and now we only

have ONE flavor... Cocoa Pebbles. Post really dropped the ball

by caving in and they are not getting any more of my money

[Jxspyder]

Feel free to save your quote of my post and refer to it in 2 months

 

Link to analysts forecasts please?

Links to server pop data please? (Actual player numbers, not banding for high/med/low which changes and is different per server)

 

This game will take a very long time to return anything significant back to it's investors.

 

Do the math, it's not difficult.

 

You're welcome

 

Typical dodge. "Next month it will fail." Why are you still here if that's the case?

 

Go through any of the population threads, and you'll find the links to EA's stockholder conference call, which presented us the only factual subscription numbers we've seen, as of Feb. 1.

 

This game needs a 500k sub base in order to return investment. After the first round of 30-day subscriptions, it had 1.7 million, with over 2 million boxes sold.

 

Did the math, still not failing. Sorry that bothers you so much.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Jxspyder

[Azzras]

Thought #1...

Well, yes, of course WoW has more raid content... I mean, they have been going for what, nearly 8 years, and had 3 expansions?

 

This statement is kind of off.

 

WoW only has 1 viable raid. Just 1.

[Smitar]

Lol.

 

 

Btw to the OP, id like to see the armory of your main in WoW, where i can see how easy the heroics are.

 

Burning Crusade had some killer content also.

 

I know, I had to ROFLMAO at that. "WoW Heroic level raids are just as easy as SWTOR" "WoW heroic raids are the same content as regs so I never bothered to do any". Oh my.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Smitar

[OldBenSmokin]

lol post fanboi.

fruity pebbles was great till all the noobs complained about

it had too many flavors. It was no problem for experienced

cereal eaters to group up the pebbles floating in the milk

and eat what they wanted.

but all the noobs complaining got it nerfed and now we only

have ONE flavor... Cocoa Pebbles. Post really dropped the ball

by caving in and they are not getting any more of my money

 

Do you have the Kellog's numbers on that or are you just talking out your ***?

Edited March 1, 2012 by OldBenSmokin

[Arkerus]

While I hate the bloated blizzard monster pig as much the the next guy, to suggest that swtor has even a fraction of its content is laughable, no matter how you look at it. With 3 years of dev love swtor still couldnt match that behemoth for content...

 

Well you make a point...

 

TOR doesn't have 20 unused raids that people use for "the lolz" or abandoned a long time ago. You know, NOT relevant content.

[Lunablade]

I love SW:TOR as much as the next fanboy... but you can seriously be trying to tell people that TOR raids are just as hard as WoW's can you?

 

My first week of hitting 50 I pugged EV with random people, and no vent and we cleared all but Soa within 2 hours... the only reason we couldn't beat Soa was because of the literally dozens of bugs.

 

Now I regularly pug HM EV and always go at least 4/5 with just random people.

 

Pugs can't even beat 25 man LK in WoW consistently and they outlevel it and out gear it by multiple tiers.

 

Yeah this reminded me on when I played still WoW during Wotlk and pug of several level 80 wanted to get throught SWP but they got wiped badly on Felmyst.

 

 

 

 

Here's a few reason why WoW's end game is so much superior--

 

1. Raiding caters to both the very casual (through the new "looking For Raid" feature) and the very hardcore (through extremely well-designed heroic bosses)

 

2. Achievements - lot of people who don't like to raid are achievement chasers. Plenty of achievements to chase at max level

 

3. Transmogrification - This was an amazing addition. This has now made people want to play the old raid in order to get a hold of that cool-looking one piece of gear that they always wanted. I see people running MC, BWL a LOT (which is amazing since they are outdated and dead raids)

 

4. Monthly events like "Darkmoon Fair" - another neat way of breaking the tedium of the repetition that is part of an MMO. Tons of people take part in this for achievements, rare mounts and often just for fun

 

5. Mini games like fishing, cooking and archaeology. I have never figured out why something as simple as Fishing is so massively popular in WoW. I have never been a fishing guy. But I have guild-mates spend hours fishing out coins in Dalaran. Talk about joblessness.

 

6. Mini games like "Plant vs Zombies" - Neat touch.

 

7. Rare pets and mounts - this is a massive chick magnet. One of my friend's girl friend spends hours farming cute non-combat pets and rare pets for her hunter. She would spend hours taming those rare spirit beast. This is a massive mini-game. Unless you have played a hunter, you have no idea how much of an obsession taming rare pets can become even to the best (or worst) of us.

 

8. Seasonal events like "Fire Festival", "Valentine's Day" etc - this adds a sense of time to the MMO and also forces people to farm for rare mounts and other items --- "ZOMG, it's my last chance this year to get the Headless Horsemen Mount. I WANT, I WANT!!"

 

9. Arenas - for hardcore PvP junkies who prefer them. Balancing nightmare causes FOTM which is a constant dev challenge. However, arenas in WoW are very popular in spite of balance issues.

 

10. Battle Grounds -- for the casual PvP-er, this is great fun. Lots of BGs to choose from.

 

11. Twinking - A great diversion to people who dig these sort of thing. Low level (level 19 bracket is most intense) PvP twinking is amazing fun.

 

12. BoA and alt leveling -- Last but not least, BoA gear makes you want to level alts. Put Crusader on a BoA 2H axe and level that warrior u always wanted to level but was too lazy to do so before.

 

TLDR -- WoW caters to a very diverse playerbase from the hardcore PvP-er and PvE-er to the very casual camper; from the people who like massive 25 man content to the people who love to solo. And this is why they have 10 million sub.

 

 

As someone who played WoW for 6 years since vanilla I have to agree with this post Blizzard with their end-game caters to both casual and hardcore players while it feels that Bioware with current TOR content caters only to very casual crowd which is not good for this game in the long run because for this game to survive and to keep subs and popularity they need different kind of players to be satisfated with their content , they need time sinks and variety of challenges at the endgame for the players to not get bored of the content fast.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Lunablade

[Azzras]

 

As someone who played WoW for 6 years since vanilla I have to agree with this post Blizzard with their end-game catter to both casual and hardcore players while it feels that Bioware with current TOR content catter only to very casual crowd which is not good for this game in the long run .

 

Which is why I'm assuming they are inviting guilds to test patch 1.2 and also hiring local players to test patches.

 

Wish I lived in Austin now.

 

[Ironspeed]

I think a lot of the people are complaining there isnt enough to do NOW. Though I will say expecting a 2 month old game to have remotely as much content as an 8 year old game is silly.

 

I would rather have it be from when cataclysm launched tbh, and 2 month old game, sure but you have to count some of the developent time, it's not like the game just came from nothing.

 

So if we look at the expantions in WoW from when they started on TOR (they say WoW is a inspiration so..) you can clearly see that Blizzard has done something right with the franchises.

 

In order to keep your playerbase comming back, you need to offer timesinks, grinds or otherwise, sure we have Ilum, but Cata has 4 or 5 factions for your toon, on top of that I allways finnish of my netherwing dailys, yes it's not endgame per say, but it's something I ENJOY doing, so then we have quest hubs with every new raid instances (almost atleast) this places are compact and easy, but I still end up doing them more often then not.

 

As for the PvE, not counting every max level instance and raid is sad in my view, sure if you allready done all you will focus on the latest and grates, but Cata isnt that old, and I think we will se a filler raid before the expantion (depending on when it comes though) so we have several raids (if you count the difference with HM it's more, progression vice that is).

 

Achivments is a good idea, it keeps more of the people online, makes them want (or feel like they need to, who cares) stay online and do them over and over, even if it's a guild run its generaly good for the game. and the rewards, like them or not is something to "work" for, want the silly title do the achivment, want more mounts and pets, farm for them.

 

Well thats my view atleast, Blizzard has more and better timesinks, the rewards differ and pleases the bigger crowds, the tools are there and you can chose to use them (LFG/LFR).

 

Not saying I'm going back anytime soon, I'm tired of the settings and the game iteself, even if my own opionion is that it's better, so I'll finish my levling and play with my friends when we can (TOR that is).

[ferroz]

To de-bunk and explain some thoughts

 

Thought #1 WoW has more raid content

 

False - Ever since BC WoW has implemented 2 instances in the first raid tier of an expansion. We are seeing, so far, the same model in TOR. Cataclysm was the exception to this in WoW but the raids easily were considered one raid as clearing both BOT/BWL in one night was common place.

Right now wow has 3 tiers of end game content, all with hard modes, plus a raid that is unlocked via pvp.

 

that's more raids than we have as end game now in swtor.

 

 

Thought #2 TOR raids are too easy vs. WoW

 

False and LOL @ Cataclysm and Wrath. WoW raids haven't been difficult since BC and the 2nd and 3rd tiers of the past 2 expansions, even on HM, difficulty has been laughable. The first tier in Cataclysm was easy before everyone complained of its difficulty and subsequently got nerfed. Although the difficulty in TOR isn't very high WoW is not any more difficult.

The fights in tor are much simpler than the ones in wow, with some even claiming that hardmode ops = lfr difficulty.

 

really, tor in general (not just raids, but hard mode FP as well) just uses a lot of enrage timers to cover up the fact that the fights are mind numbingly easy.

 

Thought #3 There is nothing to do in TOR at endgame vs. WoW

 

And what is there to do in WoW? Farm dailies, grind dungeons, raid, farm achievements. Looks pretty similar to the TOR endgame to me. No, TOR doesn't have as many dailies but we're really splitting hairs here. There are no achievements in TOR as of yet but if you are farming achievements you must be pretty bored with a game to do so. MMO's have a grind to get gear at endgame and TOR hasn't changed anything up.

You left out arena, rated battlegrounds.

 

So wow has achievements, arena, and rated battlegrounds, plus more raids, more dailies, more battlegrounds, more mounts/pets/collectables, holiday events. That first one is significant, since it includes stuff like rep grinding (which people did even back in EQ for no actual benefit). That looks like significantly more than what tor has.

 

 

Thought #4 TOR is more aimed at casuals than WoW

 

Really? LFR is all that needs to be said on that. There is nothing wrong with being a casual, some people realize life is more important than a video game but you can't say WoW isn't aimed at a casual market. In this day and age all MMO's are going to be catering to a casual audience, that is how the market has changed and this is how developer's are going to adapt to stay afloat int he marketplace.

Yes, I'd say that TOR is even more aimed at casuals than WoW, even with LFR. Edited March 1, 2012 by ferroz

[Devlonir]

So if we look at the expantions in WoW from when they started on TOR (they say WoW is a inspiration so..) you can clearly see that Blizzard has done something right with the franchises.

 

This is actually a very flawed way of looking at it. From the World of Warcraft Wikipedia page "Development of the game took roughly 4–5 years". You cannot dismiss TOR by saying: When they started development on TOR, WoW only had this and this. And look what WoW developed in the meantime.

 

WoW, by then, already had a clear direction and was already pumping out content in a steady (though slow) stream, while also having 5 years of development and a few years of open beta testing, sorry I mean vanilla WoW, behind it.

 

Of course, you can expect more from a new game. But not content wise. Especially not in a themepark game like WoW or TOR.

 

I actually think this game, given time, will put WoW to shame when it comes to the amount of content the development team can push out. Two content patches in the first 3 months of the game is what we are looking at once 1.2 comes out. That is a pace Blizzard could never even dream about.

 

I do admit the Operations and Flashpoints need more tweaking and the difficulty of them should go up. But most of early WoW was also tank&spank. And although you can assume many veterans from earlier MMOs join the game, Bioware is also focussing on drawing in non-MMO players to this game. So the early Operations and Flashpoints cannot be too hard for new players to fight.

 

I do hope they do step up their harder content soon though, because loosing the hardcore player base is not something you want in the long run. Because every new player can be a future hardcore player who gets burned out by spending too much time on the game before they become an adult casual ;-)

[-Xeper-]

"loosing the hardcore player base is not something you want in the long run."

 

No, we want them all to pack up there stupid ego's and doomsayer camp sites and go back to scoffing chips and mountian dew while snort loling over Skyrim meme's before the real portion of game population settles into end game. The last thing we need is hardcores causing guild drama, spamming recount and demanding raid achieves while killing off all gameplay and the positive vibe from happy new players.

 

By the way OP made alot of valid points which has been berried in stupid.

[Hypernetic]

This game sucks though.

 

/thread

[Azzras]

This game sucks though.

 

/thread

 

This game is fun.

 

/open thread

[BlackZoback]

Right now wow has 3 tiers of end game content, all with hard modes, plus a raid that is unlocked via pvp.

 

that's more raids than we have as end game now in swtor.

 

Of which two are obsolete save for legendary staff farming, and the PVP "boss" is nothing but a tank n spank loot pinata.

 

The fights in tor are much simpler than the ones in wow, with some even claiming that hardmode ops = lfr difficulty.

 

really, tor in general (not just raids, but hard mode FP as well) just uses a lot of enrage timers to cover up the fact that the fights are mind numbingly easy.

 

All subjective, and the difficulty's line up like:

 

Normal = LFR

Hard = Normal

Nightmare = Hard

 

Besides with an announcement like this (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=335137) it shows they are listening.

 

You left out arena, rated battlegrounds.

 

Probably on purpose because arenas are an admitted failure and RBG is not far behind, calling pvp in that game broken is being too kind.

 

Yes, I'd say that TOR is even more aimed at casuals than WoW, even with LFR.

 

Since endgame locusts consist of about 1% of the playing population, its just smart business to make your game more accessible.

Edited March 1, 2012 by BlackZoback

[ferroz]

Of which two are obsolete save for legendary staff farming, and the PVP "boss" is nothing but a tank n spank loot pinata.

No, they're all non-obsolete end game for some people; I know people who were very casual and were still doing the original cata raids as their primary end game content other than dungeons, at least back in January (I didn't' check in during February).

 

and really, the "tank and spank loot pinata" that you're talking about actually have mechanics beyond "dps before it hits enrage" ... which seems to be the standard TOR mechanic. If you scoff at them being end game content, you basically have to scoff at most of the things cited as TOR's end game content...

 

All subjective, and the difficulty's line up like:

 

Normal = LFR

Hard = Normal

Nightmare = Hard

 

Besides with an announcement like this (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=335137) it shows they are listening.

Eh, there are plenty of people on the forums claiming that they're more like

 

normal = non-heroic cata dungeons

hard = heroic cata dungeons

nightmare = lfr.

 

Probably on purpose because arenas are an admitted failure and RBG is not far behind, calling pvp in that game broken is being too kind.

It's still end game material that wow has that this one doesn't

 

the fact that it's a mistake from a design perspective doesn't mean that it isn't successful from player content perspective. The quote that you're referencing means the former, not the latter.

 

Since endgame locusts consist of about 1% of the playing population, its just smart business to make your game more accessible.

I'm not disagreeing with that statement, I'm disagreeing with the claim that TOR isn't aimed at casuals more than wow

 

The reason you give here is why TOR is aiming at being even more casual friendly than WoW.

Edited March 1, 2012 by ferroz

[Icebaron]

What WoW has that SWTOR does not

 

Arena

Flying Mounts

Rated Battleground

LFD finder

Open World Feel

Smooth reactive gameplay

Swimming

Chairs to sit in

Day/Night cycles

Vastly different races

Factions you can support

Leaders worth following

Dual Spec

Weapon choices

Crafting professions that matter

Economy that works

Multiple Hubs people gather at

Decent framerates in hubs mentioned above

Capitol city raids

Modable UI

Multiple zones to level in (1-60 anyways)

Target Dummies

Holidays

Choice of pets

Barbershop

Armory

Sever Transfers

Faction Transfers

Name/Race Changes

Forums that link to characters in game

GM's in game that come talk to you when you open a ticket

Guides and fansites galore for every aspect of gaming

Moonguard Goldshire ERP

Guild Tabards

Choice of Battleground/Warzone entered

Combat Log

Rare Spawns

Achievements

Class specific mounts

Factions to gain affection with

Easily accessable dueling centers

Restrictions on mounts at Auction House

Fishing

Cooking

Organic AND mechanical mounts

Classes that can teleport other players

Classes that can summon other players

Beer

Macros

[Raeln]

Yes it does and here is why. Wrath was the dawn of "catering to the casuals" Naxx was the first (although it was a reboot) of the "we want all players to see the content" idea.

 

The opening of Wrath is the most appropriate comparison for SWTOR. There was Naxx, Sarth & Maly. All were puggable. My servers first 10 man server kill of maly was a pug in the first week. One raid and 2 (basically) instanced 'world bosses'

 

Wrath was also bugged to high heII Cata was LITERALLY a fixed and improved Vanilla WoW with the beauty being that all the original players were long gone so they got away with it. They made you pay 50 bucks for the same shlt you already had!

 

WoW in my opinion has a better engine, and a more fine tuned combat system and that is it. Content was all the same. Even the dungeons all had regurgitated maps we had all seen a hundred times!

 

TOR's current issues aside, if WoW was so awesome - they would not be close to losing 2 million subscribers and laying off 600 employees. All I might add, since Cataclysm launched.

 

Note: I was a 7 year subscriber to WoW. I have zero desire to return to pandaland either.

[Raeln]

What WoW has that SWTOR does not

 

Arena

Flying Mounts

Rated Battleground

LFD finder

Open World Feel

Smooth reactive gameplay

Swimming

Chairs to sit in

Day/Night cycles

Vastly different races

Factions you can support

Leaders worth following

Dual Spec

Weapon choices

Crafting professions that matter

Economy that works

Multiple Hubs people gather at

Decent framerates in hubs mentioned above

Capitol city raids

Modable UI

Multiple zones to level in (1-60 anyways)

Target Dummies

Holidays

Choice of pets

Barbershop

Armory

Sever Transfers

Faction Transfers

Name/Race Changes

Forums that link to characters in game

GM's in game that come talk to you when you open a ticket

Guides and fansites galore for every aspect of gaming

Moonguard Goldshire ERP

Guild Tabards

Choice of Battleground/Warzone entered

Combat Log

Rare Spawns

Achievements

Class specific mounts

Factions to gain affection with

Easily accessable dueling centers

Restrictions on mounts at Auction House

Fishing

Cooking

Organic AND mechanical mounts

Classes that can teleport other players

Classes that can summon other players

Beer

Macros

 

Many things on your list are completely subjective.

 

Other things are completely useless.

 

Some things are entirely destructive.

[BlackZoback]

No, they're all non-obsolete end game for some people.

 

and really, the "tank and spank loot pinata" that you're talking about actually have mechanics beyond "dps before it hits enrage" ... which seems to be the standard TOR mechanic.

 

Like i said save for staff farming they are all obsolete.

 

Also most bosses still have enrage timers, they are just so easy to beat (and some cleverly disguised) most people forget they are even there.

 

Eh, there are plenty of people on the forums claiming that they're more like

 

normal = non-heroic cata dungeons

hard = heroic cata dungeons

nightmare = lfr.

 

That's coming form the 1%ers and their wannabe groupies.

 

Also believing people on these troll infested forums is comical, and I almost feel sorry for you.

 

the fact that it's a mistake from a design perspective doesn't mean that it isn't successful from player content perspective.

 

Unless you happen to play a class that isn't one of the "chosen ones" arenas are a completed failure.

 

And hopefully will never show up in this game.

 

I'm not disagreeing with that statement, I'm disagreeing with the claim that TOR isn't aimed at casuals more than wow

 

This might be a shock to you but ToR is aimed directly at the casual crowd, and they have the jump on WoW because they included the three difficulties right off the bat.

Edited March 1, 2012 by BlackZoback

[Lethality]

To de-bunk and explain some thoughts

 

Thought #1 WoW has more raid content

 

False

 

Stopped reading right there.

[Lethality]

Many things on your list are completely subjective.

 

Other things are completely useless.

 

Some things are entirely destructive.

 

And most things are what paying players are looking for.

[noodlehaus]

the one good thing that I like in WoW is that when leveling, you actually have several maps you can choose from, unlike in SWTOR right now where all your toons will go through the same sequence of maps while going for 50.

[Muskaan]

TOR's current issues aside, if WoW was so awesome - they would not be close to losing 2 million subscribers and laying off 600 employees. All I might add, since Cataclysm launched.

 

Note: I was a 7 year subscriber to WoW. I have zero desire to return to pandaland either.

 

Blizzard laid off 600 employees; not WoW. WoW is just one game that Blizzard sells. Blizzard was mostly a small company which suddenly hit big because of massive successes of all 3 of their major franchises. And now they have plateaued. Hence need to trim the fat. Read Mike Morheim's press release. Most of their cut backs are on non development region.