Girdeux Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Do you know what the word cite means? AOTC commentary Shmi Burial scene. Now run along and do your own research yourself next time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffduck Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Bit of a nitpick here but his drawing "the chosen one" to the dark side was more a matter of prophecy than his ability. It was from the dark side that Vader would eventually destroy the dark side and "balance" (in quotes because Lucas is clearly uneducated about what the word means) the Force. Also, way to exclude America from the light side. Guess now, I really do have to move to Canada... In my oppinion the prophecy relied on his ability... so wich came first, the chicken or the egg:) Guess you do.. no worries though, Canadian girls are cuter. More attuned to the light side.. they are c¨,) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 EDIT: I see you are assuming that Light Siders channel the force in the same way the Dark Siders do, a dark sider abuses the force, bends it to their will and use their aggressive emotions to channel power, the Dark Side. You're not quite getting it. Should some Force-sensitive channel the Force via their more positive emotions and passions, where would that sit? And should you claim it can't be done, you will need to cite some source - I shall remind you, though, that we have an example in TOR of just such a thing, and TOR has canon status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 AOTC commentary Shmi Burial scene. Now run along and do your own research yourself next time First off, I'll have to check that at some point - that said, there's been some stuff I've seen on commentaries that's either taken out of context or completely refuted by the "text" - which actually outweighs the vaunted "Word of God"; go look up The Death of the Author some time. And second, if you somehow think that you're not under obligation to provide evidence for your arguments, you have absolutely no concept of how debate and reasoned discourse function. It is your job to prove your case - it is not the audience's job to find your evidence for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffduck Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Wrong. Yoda is flat out wrong. If he was right he wouldnt be sitting in a swamp and Obi-wan camping out in a mudhut with the jedi in almost extinction. Lucas says the Dark side is more powerful which makes The Dark side the most powerful. End of discussion. Wrong. you are wrong. Camping out is nice.. (^^,) Anyways.. they do it because it is whats nessecary for the light to prevail.. Obi-wan goes to watch over Luke and Yoda to stay alive so he can meet Luke at the right time. Light side is the most powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ounkeo Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I think you're mis-reading into the whole "what is more powerful" thing. Individually, I think it can be clearly exampled that Sith are generally more "powerful" but that's not really half of it. Sith are naturally more aggressive than Jedi, who spend their lives as, peace negotitors and mediators. For a Jedi, violence and life taking are last resorts. To a Sith, life taking and violence are the first reosrt to solve any and all problems. It's very shallow to say that the Sith is therefore stronger. They are not. They are more aggressive and have no compunction about killing and really have little to no morality as we know it. That's not proof of power. That's just a perspective. Your arguement boils down to "Those who shout loudest are most pwoerful." Just think about the whole philosophy of the Jedi. It's about self control. Even when they use the force, it's controlled and disciplined. Sith just open the floodgates wildly and burn themselves up over time. It's finesse vs sheer brute force. Jedi practice self discipline and limitation. What need does a Jedi have to eat planets!??? It doesn't fit anywhere in their philosophy so that's simply not something they desire to do. I'm sure if Luke wanted to eat planets, he probably could. Would you consider the ability to change history without lifting a finger in violence power? Of course you would. Influence is power. Just as sheer physical brute force is a form of power. Your arguement is saying, only physical might = power. Only shouting loud = power. That's simply not true and the "power" you note are easily taken away or removed or supplanted or overcome. They are low level powers because they are easily accessible and projected but just as easily completely negated. The Emporer isn't powerful because he can eat planets. He is powerful because he influences and subverts; something far more powerful than what he can do with the force. His subjugation of the Galaxy was not specifically due to the dark side; it, along with other things and traits were just tools to an end. The most dangerous thing about the Sith Emporer is their ambition; above all else. The Dark side, like their warships and troopers and star fighters, are simply tools he uses - and it could be argued easily that his fleet is massively more effective than his command of the Dark Side in achieving his intended goals. It vould be easily argue that his political clout is easily more powerful than his command of the Dark Side; however potent he was at it. Power isn't so narrowly defined as "how hard can you punch". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygdrasel Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 It's the "reality" under debate. If you think that's BS, well, you shouldn't be wasting your time on it. Things that are utterly nonsensical needn't be debated: They're wrong by virtue of common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Things that are utterly nonsensical needn't be debated: They're wrong by virtue of common sense. So, you're saying this entire debate shouldn't happen. At all. And that Star Wars is non-sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygdrasel Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 In my oppinion the prophecy relied on his ability... so wich came first, the chicken or the egg:) Guess you do.. no worries though, Canadian girls are cuter. More attuned to the light side.. they are c¨,) The Ewok. Clearly. And believe me, I know...Canada lucked out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 You must be new here. LUCAS: 'to become the most powerful Jedi, and the only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark side because the Dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side, which is the Dark side' All well and lovely, but ultimate power and stronger in regards to what exactly? I stated this earlier, He never states this is in reference to the Force, but if you actually listen to the full statement, he is talking in reference to Anakin Skywalker. The Dark Side is the quicker and easier path to ultimate power, the Light Side takes very long to master, much longer than the Dark Side does, and that is what I think Lucas means in regards to Anakin, because the Dark Side was the only way for him to gain ultimate power in that respect. Both the Light Side and the Dark Side lead to 'ultimate power' if you will, the Dark Side is easier and quicker, but that is swapped for the wisdom and knowledge of a Jedi. Even then, that all depends on the user. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 The Ewok. Clearly. And believe me, I know...Canada lucked out there. I know, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygdrasel Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 So, you're saying this entire debate shouldn't happen. At all. And that Star Wars is non-sense. I never said any of that. Pay attention to my words instead of the words you shovel into my mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girdeux Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 First off, I'll have to check that at some point - that said, there's been some stuff I've seen on commentaries that's either taken out of context or completely refuted by the "text" - which actually outweighs the vaunted "Word of God"; go look up The Death of the Author some time. And second, if you somehow think that you're not under obligation to provide evidence for your arguments, you have absolutely no concept of how debate and reasoned discourse function. It is your job to prove your case - it is not the audience's job to find your evidence for you. Right. Because the quote is taken out of context when it states in black and white "The dark side is more powerful". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I never said any of that. Pay attention to my words instead of the words you shovel into my mouth. Pay attention to the words you're responding to, then. I said that it's the "reality" under debate, it being Star Wars, and you said that it's non-sense and shouldn't be debated. I was giving you the benefit of assuming you got the point of what I was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Right. Because the quote is taken out of context when it states in black and white "The dark side is more powerful". There's a lot of context that could change the meaning of that, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygdrasel Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Power isn't so narrowly defined as "how hard can you punch". Likewise, Sith are not so narrowly defined as immoral psychotic killers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girdeux Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 All well and lovely, but ultimate power and stronger in regards to what exactly? I stated this earlier, He never states this is in reference to the Force, but if you actually listen to the full statement, he is talking in reference to Anakin Skywalker. The Dark Side is the quicker and easier path to ultimate power, the Light Side takes very long to master, much longer than the Dark Side does, and that is what I think Lucas means in regards to Anakin, because the Dark Side was the only way for him to gain ultimate power in that respect. Both the Light Side and the Dark Side lead to 'ultimate power' if you will, the Dark Side is easier and quicker, but that is swapped for the wisdom and knowledge of a Jedi. Even then, that all depends on the user. Strength=Power. Youre debating that Lucas thinks the words mean 2 different things. The fact is Anakin wants to become the strongest ever, and Lucas is saying thats only possible if you go to the dark side because the Dark side is more powerful. "The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time." --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 You're not quite getting it. Should some Force-sensitive channel the Force via their more positive emotions and passions, where would that sit? And should you claim it can't be done, you will need to cite some source - I shall remind you, though, that we have an example in TOR of just such a thing, and TOR has canon status. Care to share exactly whom in regards that is to? this TOR source? Again, in none of the canon has anything stated someone can channel positive emotions to fuel any form of force power, it doesn't work that way, their is predominantly the light side and the dark side, both ways have been described fully. Like I said, never before has any canon stated positive emotions can be channeled for force power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Strength=Power. Youre debating that Lucas thinks the words mean 2 different things. The fact is Anakin wants to become the strongest ever, and Lucas is saying thats only possible if you go to the dark side because the Dark side is more powerful. "The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time." --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary. Fair enough, I'll respectfully bow out to that where his meaning is concerned, I didn't think his statement was so literal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygdrasel Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Pay attention to the words you're responding to, then. I said that it's the "reality" under debate, it being Star Wars, and you said that it's non-sense and shouldn't be debated. I was giving you the benefit of assuming you got the point of what I was saying. If you follow this conversation from its beginning, you will see I was not debating Star Wars as a whole. I was stating that certain pieces of Star Wars canon are nonsensical dreck and thus neither worthy of nor open to debate. Why or how you managed to warp the conversation into encompassing the whole of Star Wars is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Care to share exactly whom in regards that is to? this TOR source? Can't recall the exact line, but... (Very minor Knight spoiler) The Sith encountered on Tatooine by the Knight (Lord Praven I think his name was?) explicitly states something along the lines of honour and something else being his only passions - thus the ones that drives his Force power. There is absolutely no case from text to claim that he's lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girdeux Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Fair enough, I'll respectfully bow out to that where his meaning is concerned, I didn't think his statement was so literal. Good to see youve finally come over to the dark side of the force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 If you follow this conversation from its beginning, you will see I was not debating Star Wars as a whole. I was stating that certain pieces of Star Wars canon are nonsensical dreck and thus neither worthy of nor open to debate. Why or how you managed to warp the conversation into encompassing the whole of Star Wars is beyond me. Go. Read. You said that the canon was BS, non-sense, not worth debating. I pointed out, however, that the canon is the "reality" of Star Wars. To dismiss it as non-sense is to dismiss Star Wars as non-sense. Some certain pieces can be removed (hence debates over what is canon), but others are too central. In and of itself, that's not too far out there - after all, Star Wars starts out as some pretty shallow fiction. Any depth, really, is in the EU. However, entering a discussion such as this whilst holding such an opinion is very odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Strength=Power. Youre debating that Lucas thinks the words mean 2 different things. The fact is Anakin wants to become the strongest ever, and Lucas is saying thats only possible if you go to the dark side because the Dark side is more powerful. "The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time." --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary. A more useful quote. Notice that he points out the self-defeating nature of the dark side, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Can't recall the exact line, but... (Very minor Knight spoiler) The Sith encountered on Tatooine by the Knight (Lord Praven I think his name was?) explicitly states something along the lines of honour and something else being his only passions - thus the ones that drives his Force power. There is absolutely no case from text to claim that he's lying. Found it, he never states he actually channels positive emotions for power, he just states his passions are integrity and honour, which can mean anything. PS: You'll have to ignore whatever that music is in the background. Edited February 28, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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