MMO creation 101

[xUngodly]

Heres my 2 cents: Not that anybody cares I figured Id throw it out there.

 

Length of Game Content is mainly what Im talking about here. I agree and disagree on this part of the argument. I agree that the game is a bit short compared to other MMO's. I mean its been what 2-3 months something like that and I already have 2 50's (and no I did not grind to get there. I did take my time)

 

So yes I could see why people are saying this game is to short. But also in the same sense you dont want it to where it takes hours and hours on top of hours to get to the end game or when you get there you dont want it to take FOREVER to get some nice gear like some MMO's cough *WoW* cough. Because that will get boring really really fast! At least it did for me I personally just gave up.

 

So I think they should extend it some more but not a whole lot. Also the thing I hate the most with Most if not ALL MMO's is Fresh 50. Meaning When you first become 50 its hard and sometimes annoying to get decently geared so you can do in this case Hardmodes and Operations. Who wants to go do the same quests over and over and over every single day to get daily commedations and whatever else. Or PVP your but off Champion Bags. What happens if you HATE PVP or just not good at it.

 

When I was a fresh 50 every group I got into for Hardmodes I got kicked out because "I wasnt geared enough" Thats just retarded. So what did I do I went and grinded in PVP to get Centurion and Champion Gear. I dont hate PVP but I dont like it either. So with that said They need to give better options for Fresh 50's to get geared for Hardmodes or Operations OR Make it a little easier on some of the Hardmodes for Fresh 50's to get geared for. Liek Black Talon, Hammer Station, Athiss, and Mandalorian Raiders.

[Iboga]

To sum up my thoughts. I disagree with you, on pretty much every point. Not going to get into it, but merely say: "Some people will never be happy with anything."

 

If you don't enjoy the game, feel you didn't get your money's worth, etc... move along. There are other games out there...

[biere]

If people devote their lives to this game and are the worlds best guild with world first kills on all bosses, do you not think they deserve recognition? Once again the 'ball in a cup' example is applicable. Why would anyone want to be best at 'ball in a cup' and not spend their time on something else?

 

They dont deserve any recognition whatsoever. If you devote your life to a game the only recognition you should deserve its from the nearest psychiatric hospital because you need serious help.

[Forsbacka]

They dont deserve any recognition whatsoever. If you devote your life to a game the only recognition you should deserve its from the nearest psychiatric hospital because you need serious help.

 

Same could be said about any hobby.

[darthdoll]

Heres my 2 cents: Not that anybody cares I figured Id throw it out there.

 

I care

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No not really... but I do, or do I? Idk.

[Matteis]

The classic armchair dev thread that spouts off without knowing anything about real development, asset allocation, time constraints and lots of other things that make the business world go 'round.

 

I like the game as it is minus the lame *** loading screens. This thread however is terrible.

[piethief]

Joined: Oct 2008. Not a fanboy nope not one bit.

 

Oh cool! We who joined in 2008 are all fanbois now?

 

Thanks for the info.

[Dayfax]

The classic armchair dev thread that spouts off without knowing anything about real development, asset allocation, time constraints and lots of other things that make the business world go 'round.

 

There is little to nothing in her post that faces the limitations you describe.

 

Further, explain how several other MMOs addressed several of the OP's concerns, at launch and at a much lower development cost than SWTOR?

 

And what's with the "armchair" stuff? Since when of fans of, well, anything not allowed to comment on it?

 

In order to posit a well articulated, defensible opinion, you've got to be a paid profressional now? When did that happen?

[Arkerus]

There is little to nothing in her post that faces the limitations you describe.

 

Further, explain how several other MMOs addressed several of the OP's concerns, at launch and at a much lower development cost than SWTOR?

 

And what's with the "armchair" stuff? Since when of fans of, well, anything not allowed to comment on it?

 

In order to posit a well articulated, defensible opinion, you've got to be a paid profressional now? When did that happen?

 

Um nope.

 

 

He/She is definitely "armchair" developing. Creating scenarios, posting their false perception of the game, telling us what should have been done.

 

Its all blah blah blah blah without true constructive criticism.

 

They went as far as creating ASCII GRAPHS that aren't even true or relevant.

 

Based on those graphs a character with 0 time spent is better than someone who plays the game a lot.

 

We know thats false. The OP was nothing more than whining and complaining. JUst like any other game forum. Just a bunch of crap about how the person thought the game should have beern structured more to them.

[Voidence]

Yay more whining... Ok for all you dense people out there

 

 

 

IF YOU DO NOT LIKE A GAME DO NOT PLAY IT. See folks its not really THAT hard. Some of you make it look like Mission Impossible or something.

[Vecke]

I'm all for people posting their opinions of the game. I'm even happier when they post the reasons for those opinions. It gives developers the opportunity to evaluate why someone quit.

 

But when you create a post that gives the inference (if not outright claim) that your opinion is some kind of empirical fact - complete with graphs and a title that has the numbers "101" - you actually hurt your own point, because you can no longer say, "Hey, that's my opinion. You can have yours, I'll have mine."

 

Instead, you open the door to people coming in and nitpicking your reasons because you presented them as facts, when everyone knows they are not facts. They are opinions.

 

And they're some well-thought-out opinions, I can tell.

 

But I happen to love, for example, the intro to the game. It had a scroll specific to my character and - depending on the character - felt like the beginning of several Star Wars movies, which is the point. In Episode 1, 2, 5, and 6, the movie didn't start with some epic battle. That's 4 out of 6 of the star wars movies that started with a scroll, a space shot, and a conversation. Which is how this game starts.

 

I'm not saying your opinions are wrong. They're your opinions, and that's cool. I'm just saying that your post screams that you're stating some universally agreed upon facts. They aren't facts.

 

Just my opinion.

[Malefactor]

The classic armchair dev thread that spouts off without knowing anything about real development, asset allocation, time constraints and lots of other things that make the business world go 'round.

 

I like the game as it is minus the lame *** loading screens. This thread however is terrible.

 

I do find it humorous that people, like the OP, who have no experience developing MMO's, make threads like this one, attempting to "teach" actual game developers with multiple titles under their belts how to make one. There's at least 1 person on the team (Rich Vogel) that helped create the MMO genre itself, working on titles such as Meridian 59, Ultima Online and others. There's decades of combined experience on this dev team, real world experience, not theory.

 

Care to share which titles you have worked on OP? Since you're teaching us and BW with your vast knowledge and experience?

 

 

Armchair devs, gotta love em.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Malefactor

[Jett-Rinn]

I'm all for people posting their opinions of the game. I'm even happier when they post the reasons for those opinions. It gives developers the opportunity to evaluate why someone quit.

 

But when you create a post that gives the inference (if not outright claim) that your opinion is some kind of empirical fact - complete with graphs and a title that has the numbers "101" - you actually hurt your own point, because you can no longer say, "Hey, that's my opinion. You can have yours, I'll have mine."

 

Instead, you open the door to people coming in and nitpicking your reasons because you presented them as facts, when everyone knows they are not facts. They are opinions.

 

And they're some well-thought-out opinions, I can tell.

 

But I happen to love, for example, the intro to the game. It had a scroll specific to my character and - depending on the character - felt like the beginning of several Star Wars movies, which is the point. In Episode 1, 2, 5, and 6, the movie didn't start with some epic battle. That's 4 out of 6 of the star wars movies that started with a scroll, a space shot, and a conversation. Which is how this game starts.

 

I'm not saying your opinions are wrong. They're your opinions, and that's cool. I'm just saying that your post screams that you're stating some universally agreed upon facts. They aren't facts.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

Very true.....every time I see one of these everlame Armchair dev post; I have to ask. How many AAA titkes have they shipped? and How many years have they been working in the industry?

 

Because if they had any real talent or anything tangible to contribute they would be in the industry. Blizzard came after Jeff Kaplan for a reason, they hired Lum for a reason.

 

Something they also never consider is their opinions are boring and so would be their games if someone was stupid enough to finance their hair-brained plans.

 

Yet they keep spending hours on these posts trying desperately to show that they know more than professionals who have decades in the industry.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Jett-Rinn

[Dayfax]

Very true.....every time I see one of these everlame Armchair dev post; I have to ask. How many AAA titkes have they shipped? and How many years have they been working in the industry?

 

Because if they had any real talent or anything tangible to contribute they would be in the industry. Blizzard came after Jeff Kaplan for a reason, they hired Lum for a reason.

 

Something they also never consider is their opinions are boring and so would be their games if someone was stupid enough to finance their hair-brained plans.

 

Yet they keep spending hours on these posts trying desperately to show that they know more than professionals who have decades in the industry.

 

Yes, because media professionals always release quality content polished to a high sheen. Stuff like Spore, Duke Nukem Forever on the gaming side, and The Spirit, Battlefield Earth, and Catwoman on the movie side, well, they just don't happen. Because paid professionals always have all the answers.

 

It doesn't take decades of industry experience -- in any industry -- to suggest that you release stuff when it's done, polished, feature complete, or that you care about customer service.

 

What is interesting to me about the folks critiquing the OP: you attack her tone or her credibility, but I haven't seen very many posts successfully critiquing any one part of her message.

 

GG on that one. (I also assume you're an industry professional as you are deigning to speak from a position of authority here.)

[PulseRazor]

Best gear in one week?

 

I shudder to think how much you are playing to run through the game in less then a week. I consider myself a pretty heavy gamer, and I play this game every day for hours... I am no where near the end of act one on any character, I am thoroughly enjoying the game.

 

Maybe if less min maxers played the game 24/7 and treating it like a Job would take a step back and evaluate why they are playing this game to begin with we could have a constructive forum.

[Jett-Rinn]

Yes, because media professionals always release quality content polished to a high sheen. Stuff like Spore, Duke Nukem Forever on the gaming side, and The Spirit, Battlefield Earth, and Catwoman on the movie side, well, they just don't happen. Because paid professionals always have all the answers.

 

It doesn't take decades of industry experience -- in any industry -- to suggest that you release stuff when it's done, polished, feature complete, or that you care about customer service.

 

What is interesting to me about the folks critiquing the OP: you attack her tone or her credibility, but I haven't seen very many posts successfully critiquing any one part of her message.

 

GG on that one. (I also assume you're an industry professional as you are deigning to speak from a position of authority here.)

 

Actually I am; as most folks already know.

 

And your points have very little relevancy because your dealing with semantics. If Bob thinks that TOR should have been a sandbox that's fine; If Bob thinks TOR sucks because it isn't well that's just silly. That's why attacking her message is superfluous.... because it isn't a message..it's an opinion.

 

 

And as for polish goes sorry the only people I hear complain about lack of polish is the handful of Doom-cryers and their alts. Even people at G4 are laughing at how absurd the notion is that TOR isn't feature complete and lacks polish.....that's pretty sad.

[Ozzone]

You should listen to the players and change the game the way they want to.

 

Which players? The hardcore PvP crowd? PvE crowd? Casual gamers? Fanboys?

 

If there was a general consensus on what needs to be changed, then it makes sense. But when you have so many different opinions on what players want, it's impossible.

[Rotny]

The problem is the game is way too easy. There's little skill or challenge involved unless it's premade vs premade or nightmare mode. Remember the epic journey from lvl 1 to Molten Core during vanilla wow. That kind of epic adventure doesn't exist here. You can lvl 1 to full columi in like a month this just shouldn't be possible except for the people who play 18 hours a day.

[VegaPhone]

armchair developers...lol.

 

Where to start:

BioWare did exactly what you stated. You don't like where they saw a competitive advantage so some how BW 'did it wrong.'

 

First Impression:

SWTOR does this and does it well. You personally don't like, but a huge population disagrees with you.

 

Reward value:

In other words, you're advocating triggering a gambling addiction design to this game OR a real life simulation. There's nothing in game design that says anything remotely close to what you're advocating...except those trying to invoke a gambling addiction. MMOs like Second LIfe, Tale in the Desert, or single player success stories like the SIMS prove that. Not to mention the vast majority of games that exist. A game only needs to be fun. Period.

 

Quality

BW released a quality game. YOU don't think so, but that doesn't make SWTOR a bad game.

 

Leveling

there's far more than 20-30 hours, and the questing they did implement is done in fun and unique ways. You stating the contrary doesn't make it so.

 

Conclusion

BioWare didn't fail, you're litany of untruths notwithstanding.

 

 

tl;dr: LOL @ armchair developers.

 

So you want to have moral discussion for not having gambling in game?

 

Do you really want to have a moral discussion about what is outside peoples windows, and what is on the TV?

 

What it means to have access to the internet as well.

 

Also have you seen the SW movies?

 

There are already gambling tables in SW. The idea exists. People should learn self control. And they dont learn that from complete denial of something, and then when they are exposed to it, they lack self control.

 

Strange how you care about addiction, but use an MMO forum to talk about addiction. MMOs are addictive, they are designed to have no end.

 

Are you going to preach to me about the right thing to do while I waste my time playing a video game?

 

If you are so righteous you are already in the wrong place. Playing video games is not for someone who is so righteous. You should be saving the world and setting an example.

 

Why do people all of sudden try to make a difference with swtor?

 

Fix everything else. When you are done with the world, then try to make swtor an ethical representation of the world.

 

However, there are many great things in swtor also from an ethical point of view with the alignment system teaching about ethics. So there is good stuff, but of course the very bad as well.

[Hypernetic]

I wonder what the fanboys will say when this game completely dies.

 

Something like "WoW kills another MMO" or "entitlement" I'm guessing.

[darthdoll]

I wonder what the fanboys will say when this game completely dies.

 

Something like "WoW kills another MMO" or "entitlement" I'm guessing.

 

I wonder what you will say when it surpasses WoW in subs.

 

Something like "Oh it will die in 2 years from now", when it doesnt you change your opinion and say "Oh its 4 years".

[Vecke]

So you want to have moral discussion for not having gambling in game?

 

Do you really want to have a moral discussion about what is outside peoples windows, and what is on the TV?

 

What it means to have access to the internet as well.

 

Also have you seen the SW movies?

 

There are already gambling tables in SW. The idea exists. People should learn self control. And they dont learn that from complete denial of something, and then when they are exposed to it, they lack self control.

 

Strange how you care about addiction, but use an MMO forum to talk about addiction. MMOs are addictive, they are designed to have no end.

 

Are you going to preach to me about the right thing to do while I waste my time playing a video game?

 

If you are so righteous you are already in the wrong place. Playing video games is not for someone who is so righteous. You should be saving the world and setting an example.

 

Why do people all of sudden try to make a difference with swtor?

 

Fix everything else. When you are done with the world, then try to make swtor an ethical representation of the world.

 

However, there are many great things in swtor also from an ethical point of view with the alignment system teaching about ethics. So there is good stuff, but of course the very bad as well.

 

I don't really have a pod in this race, but I think all the person you quoted was saying (in an admittedly snarky way) is that a game just has to be fun. Period. It was just a reaction to the OPs assertion that it's "common knowledge" that in order for an MMO to be good, that MMO has to follow the "addiction model." The OP was just disagreeing with that.

 

This entire thread is just people reacting to the "my opinions are facts" tone of the original post.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Vecke

[Dayfax]

Actually I am; as most folks already know.

 

And your points have very little relevancy because your dealing with semantics. If Bob thinks that TOR should have been a sandbox that's fine; If Bob thinks TOR sucks because it isn't well that's just silly. That's why attacking her message is superfluous.... because it isn't a message..it's an opinion.

 

And as for polish goes sorry the only people I hear complain about lack of polish is the handful of Doom-cryers and their alts. Even people at G4 are laughing at how absurd the notion is that TOR isn't feature complete and lacks polish.....that's pretty sad.

 

Forgive me if I am skeptical of your appeal to authority here.

 

Aside from that, you seem to be under the erroneous impression that all opinions are equal, and have merit, simply because they've been given voice.

 

Feel free to voice anything you'd like but if you can't (or won't) back it up with any kind substantive argument, it's not worth discussing or even considering.

 

The OP has a certain viewpoint about the game and basic design and expressed that viewpoint through multiple, well articulated points. Again, I'm not sure how you can argue that calls for "polish" and "customer service" are pure opinion, easy to dismiss. Frankly, that just seems ludicrous to me. It's as if your a hair's breadth away from telling people to "L2P" when they complain about game breaking bugs.

 

Speaking of which --- when game breaking bugs still exist in endgame content two months after launch, that's not a polished product. That's not really debatable, either, or a matter of opinion. When a product is broken in release, you can't really claim it is, on some fundamental level, well crafted.

 

Feature complete is debatable. In that regard, I don't think the game is lacking (although a lot of people on these forums disagree). But then there's a difference between features and basic, core design decisions too.

[darthdoll]

Thats just silly....but I thank you for the signature kiddo.....

 

Your welcome... Obviously you know I am correct because you could not come back with any response other than laughing. Please, oh please tell me how TOR is losing "lots of subs" oh wise one.

[Frozenshiva]

Oh look another topic where someone thinks he knows more about creating video-games than the people making them for a living and on a daily basis.

 

You people wouldn't be able to release a B grade title for all its worth if your life depended on it. Let alone a AAA title.