Healing in PvP is Overpowered Because You Nerfed Damage

[kweassa]

healing is a complete joke now, 3 ppl cant beat a healer who is spamming one button...

 

..best wz is voidstar where the opponents got 4 healers and 4 hybrids...

 

just stop giving healers mvp, as i always did ...

 

 

Then those 3 people need to be ashamed of themselves for being absolutely clueless.

 

 

 

 

...i really would like to see another wz and arena, im getting really bored of only 3 warzones with that grind which we have seen in ALL mmos before, this is nothing new and the pvp system failed hard

 

More different types of WZs would be nice, that much is true.

 

But a "PvP system" fail?

 

The only things that ever fail in wreckless and rude comments like these, is the players themselves.

 

A person with even just a basic understanding and tactical planning of how to cycle through a variety of powers, to keep a healer down, would not ever say something like this.

 

 

Or, is your vision of a "healer" something that is such a flimsy, squishy little heal vending machine that stays in one spot and does nothing else, that you do not need to use any important powers on a cool down and just target it and smash or blast it for a few seconds between one interrupt?

 

Something that has no way of really fighting back or resisting incoming attackers so it can give you a nice, easy and free kill?

 

Is that it?

Edited February 25, 2012 by kweassa

[origional]

The op might be exagerating but he has a point. healers are in fact OP. it so ridicolous that you cant out damage the healing of someone...

.

 

Agreed.

 

I've been playing an alt for most of the week so only pvp'd with my main yesterday and someone commented in general about people going for kills rather than objectives and my response was how the hell can I go for kills when im hitting someone and doing practically no damage.

 

Ok, im a tank and not likely to get many kills but when your enemies health is goung UP under your continous attacks then clearly something is wrong with the game.

 

I've also been dieing a lot less. Maybe once a match compared to 5 or 6 times a match.

 

Now I belive in prolonged combat, this killing people in seconds stuff is the worst type of garbage pvp imaginable, but at the same time, everyone should have the capability to keill anyone else. If a class can out heal damage then its a serious balance issue and will hurt the game.

[Nocorras]

Healers are very killable, learn to focus fire and not be bad. Guarded healers are a pain but if you focus fire and don't all interrupt at once you can kill them.

 

It should be hard to kill a healer who is guarded and getting peels from teammates.

[Adzzy]

Yes, Scoundrel/OP healers rely on crit, but they aren't the problem, because they are terrible. Its amusing that the worst healer was the one most affected by the surge nerf, but I'm glad that they aren't as ridiculous as the other healers.

 

The OP teams use sorc/merc combos which are unbeatable with tanks.

 

they're a bit so so on their own, the merc is certainly the best "self reliant healer"

 

they're also more gear reliant, as the crits can lead to impressive output without really exposing their cast bar much if at all, and geared and guarded they're by far the hardest to deal with.

 

Mercs and sorcs you can keep from meaningful healing output if you know what you're doing, especially with 2 people, operatives not so much.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Adzzy

[Jamuro]

And again with the healer hatred ...

 

but once they are nerfed into oblivion the same guys will cry out that they die every few seconds and don't stand a chance.

As mentioned about several hundred times ... if you put pressure on a healer, he will have to heal himself and therefore be disabled for his team.

 

No damage (when compared to dps speccs) and the heals focused to keep yourself alive means that your team dies and the enemy team wins.

 

But hey keep crying ... just don't wonder when pvp becomes a mindless alpharing of every class except tanks.

[zorniza]

Harpoon the healers out of pack one-by-one and focus fire them. Gosh, it's not that hard. Of course it's doable only if you have a team, but organised team always>PUG.

[Garrum]

Healers themselves aren't the problem, well at least not as much as some would say. The real problem is Guard/Taunt. They break the game when a healer is involved.

[DunsparrowSolo]

Healers themselves aren't the problem, well at least not as much as some would say. The real problem is Guard/Taunt. They break the game when a healer is involved.

 

Guard/Taunt are part of it. Not all of it.

[lokivoid]

The way to solve the issue is not to nerf the healer's output or abilities but to introduce more ways to counter or impede it.

 

Step 1 Fix the interrupt mechanics

1.have interrupts lock down a "school" or type insted of just a single ability

2. up the lockdown time from four seconds to five seconds

3. lower the cooldown of interrupts from 12 seconds to 10.

 

If that is still not enough add in more heal reduction/healing counter debuffs to classes (at the moment there is only one debuff and its limited to marauder / sentinel) and addin abilities to remove beneficial buffs from enemy targets (AKA dispel)

[Mysticjbyrd]

Healers are very killable, learn to focus fire and not be bad. Guarded healers are a pain but if you focus fire and don't all interrupt at once you can kill them.

 

It should be hard to kill a healer who is guarded and getting peels from teammates.

 

This x100. Everyone is acting like healers should be easily killable by a single dps. If healers can't even kinda survive a single dps, then there would be no point to healing.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Mysticjbyrd

[AidenPryde]

What many of the naysayers fail to realize is that Sorc/Sage can hybridize in both the DPS and healing tree.

 

I've seen many a healing and DPS Sorc/Sage hit 250k damage and 200k healing in a single match.

[ShadowOfVey]

I'd like to see the cooldown on the 12 second interrupts lowered by a second or two. I think that would go a long way, while still obviously keeping healers very powerful and useful.

[sevenpsych]

What many of the naysayers fail to realize is that Sorc/Sage can hybridize in both the DPS and healing tree.

 

I've seen many a healing and DPS Sorc/Sage hit 250k damage and 200k healing in a single match.

 

Hybrid sorc here... 0/16/25

 

In relation to pugs...

 

Its kind of funny, but 400k+ damage and ~200k healing is easy enough in void star -without- the spec into heals...

 

and that 400k+ is because I'm dpsing healers and their adjacent brute squad.

 

Of course that 200k heals is just keeping my butt upright against grav/tracer/lightning/force spam, not my team. My team is screwed if I have to main heal.

 

Point being, the numbers can lie about the effect an individual has on the outcome of a game.

 

People rely too heavily on burst damage, pick better targets and start making premades with people who mark and focus fire the healers, not everyone in any given WZ can heal forever.

 

You just have to team up and kill the one or two who can in any given PUG.

[Jaxtaro]

This x100. Everyone is acting like healers should be easily killable by a single dps. If healers can't even kinda survive a single dps, then there would be no point to healing.

 

Nonsense, a DPS should be able to kill ANYONE, the healer should survive a tank, and a protected healer should survive a DPS type.

 

The value that you want to give DPS types is astounding: "Do enough damage to only kill each other, but god forbid they kill a healer or a tank".

[RoJackal]

Nonsense, a DPS should be able to kill ANYONE, the healer should survive a tank, and a protected healer should survive a DPS type.

 

The value that you want to give DPS types is astounding: "Do enough damage to only kill each other, but god forbid they kill a healer or a tank".

 

^ This.

[HoyaPooch]

healing is a complete joke now, 3 ppl cant beat a healer who is spamming one button...

best wz is voidstar where the opponents got 4 healers and 4 hybrids...

 

just stop giving healers mvp, as i always did ...

 

 

 

i really would like to see another wz and arena, im getting really bored of only 3 warzones with that grind which we have seen in ALL mmos before, this is nothing new and the pvp system failed hard

 

 

There is just so much wrong with this one small post that I just think I'll move on

[Jamuro]

healers are only a problem in voidstar ... honestly if you can't handle a healer team in hutball, you are doing it wrong.

 

Same for civil war ... don't let them get a side and you win so easy, since they can't kill you fast enough to recapture.

 

Bad player ... nugh said

[Haeso]

Since the surge nerf, many servers have seen the rise of what I call the

 

Trollololol Heal Team

 

This is a pack of hybrid sorcerers and healing Mercs that basically run around in unkillable packs, healing for infinity. They never run out of mana because there is no mana resource in this game and they never die because you can't lock down 5 healers at once. If you are on one of them he heals himself until you interrupt, then he switches to damage, all the while the other hybrid sorcs or mercs are healing him. You cant kill anyone. They eventually will overwhelm your team and once they do, the game is immediately lost. If anyone gets low, a tank will just guard them, which is the end of any chance of getting a kill.

 

Void Star

Several healers/hybrids go to each side and camp around chatting and telling stories, while never dying and never letting anyone plant. You score 0 and then they only have to get 1 door down to win.

 

Huttball

5 healers camp the middle and you can never kill them or get them out. Thus your team can never get the ball to score unless you kill the ball carrier between the middle and your own end zone, then you have to run the gauntlet of their entire team to score, which is tough when you cant kill any of them.

 

Civil War

They slam one node, leave 2 healers at it, then slam another node. Then they leave 2-3 healers at both while the rest run to whichever node you attack. There is no possible way to dislodge them. I did 500k damage in a Civil War and had 1 killing blow.

 

I have no idea what "faster than intended kill times" means when you nerfed Surge, but surely this can't be intended. PvP in this game was fun at launch. Now it is honestly dumb as hell. You either get a premade and destroy pugs or you have stupid trollol heal teams farm you for full duration games over and over.

 

Bring back burst damage in PvP or this will never end.

You are killing this game.

 

8 players can deal enough damage to instagib a healer and the person guarding him if they all hit the same person. With an AoE taunt on all of them, maybe not, but generally speaking, rather easy.

 

Every class can do upwards of 4k within one global cooldown as far as I know.

 

Casted ability + instant ability. For Knights it's force sweep spec. Sticky -> grav round -> Demo (All non crits still above 5k all landing at the same time on a non-tank.) for a commando. Tele Wave (Casted not instant from PoM, so it doesn't trigger GCD and you can put another instant right after it)-> force in balance for sages. I don't know the names of the gunslinger skills but they have one ability that only deals damage after you hit them with something else, so that -> any casted ability -> any instant ability.

 

Burst damage is still alive and well, just now it requires coordinated burst. Don't see a problem. Also damage still scales faster than healing with gear.

[Darth_Ricky]

nerf self heal

 

+

 

chg 30%pvp heals nerf to like 20% or w/e

 

= game got beter

[Mannic]

8 players can deal enough damage to instagib a healer and the person guarding him if they all hit the same person. With an AoE taunt on all of them, maybe not, but generally speaking, rather easy.

 

Every class can do upwards of 4k within one global cooldown as far as I know.

 

Casted ability + instant ability. For Knights it's force sweep spec. Sticky -> grav round -> Demo (All non crits still above 5k all landing at the same time on a non-tank.) for a commando. Tele Wave (Casted not instant from PoM, so it doesn't trigger GCD and you can put another instant right after it)-> force in balance for sages. I don't know the names of the gunslinger skills but they have one ability that only deals damage after you hit them with something else, so that -> any casted ability -> any instant ability.

 

Burst damage is still alive and well, just now it requires coordinated burst. Don't see a problem. Also damage still scales faster than healing with gear.

 

You say "all classes can do upwards of 4K damage within one GCD" like this is Rift or WoW TBC or something.

 

I have a newsflash for you--- 4K damage (on a crit, of course, and ONLY if the target isn't guarded and hasn't procc'd a shield or other defensive abililty) is NOT MUCH vs. a 20K health pool. Stop acting like this is a normal game where in maxed-out gear as a tank at end-game you have maybe 10K health. Hell, in vanilla WoW you had what? 7K health at level 60? In TOR, you need to put out the equivalent of 35-40K damage to kill a guarded healer, and that assumes the healer doesn't, you know, heal himself or proc his own shield or run away.

 

And saying "8 players can deal enough damage to instagib a healer;" I mean really-- that's your standard for balance? That the entire opposing Ops has to focus on ONE player to kill them quickly? You can seriously look people in the eye when saying that one class being so powerful that an entire Ops should always make it their single focus-fire priority DOESN'T mean that class is overpowered?

Edited March 3, 2012 by Mannic

[AKfourtyseven]

I've seen it republic side. Teams made of sages and commandos.

 

Last night, every single Rep team i faced in 4hrs of PvP had a minimum of 3 Couns and 3 Commandos. The other slots were normally tank spec'd Knights in the same guild as the healing Sages. A few teams were entirely Sage/Trooper based.

 

This makeup is most definetly the FOTM for Reps and its nigh impossible to stop on certain maps. Hutball that makeup gets destroyed because it relies on being stationary, but on Voidstar its annoying as hell to have a backline of grav spammers backed up by 3 cross-healing sages. Civil war it will go downhill fast if they get established first, since the sages will set up camp and cross heal while troopers unload on incomers.

Edited March 3, 2012 by AKfourtyseven

[Haeso]

You say "all classes can do upwards of 4K damage within one GCD" like this is Rift or WoW TBC or something.

 

I have a newsflash for you--- 4K damage is NOT MUCH vs. a 20K health pool. Stop acting like this is a normal game where at level 50 you have 7K health. And saying "8 players can deal enough damage to instagib a healer;" I mean really-- that's your standard for balance? That the entire opposing Ops has to focus on ONE player to kill them quickly? You can seriously look people in the eye and saying that one class being so powerful that an entire Ops should always make it their single focus-fire priority DOESN'T mean that class is overpowered?

 

If they're guarded and you're taunted? Absolutely it should take a team effort to instantly kill someone. It doesn't take a full team for me and my four man premade to kill two healers and a tank + DPS much less one healer a tank and 2 DPS. But we aren't needing to do it instantly, we use CC on the tank to pull him away then force lift, we use CC on the other healer - and if they both break their CC's using the two minute timer we go defensive for a minute till our CC is back and do it again while their timers are on cooldown then it's 4 DPS vs 1 healer and 1 DPS. And if it's only one healer and one tank 2 DPS it's even easier. 4 healers vs 2 DPS and healer/tank or 1 DPS 1 tank 2 healers - the 4 healers will never kill us either, so it's a stale mate unless we can put out enough burst to instagib someone.

 

And if you want to talk potential burst - I know of three classes/builds that can output 10k in a split second window individually - I said EVERY class can do 4k. 8x4 = 32k bare minimum, almost enough to kill a guarded healer. Assuming any of the people on the team are decently geared and know how to spec anywhere near competently, they'll be able to push out over 40k damage in a short window quite easily.

 

Not to mention they could just pick one of the healers that ISN'T guarded, or the tank himself as long as his defensive cooldowns aren't up.

 

 

 

Just because you're terrible and can't figure out how to kill healers and tanks, doesn't mean there's something wrong with the relationship between healing, damage and survivability. My four man team has a few setups where we each run a class/build that can put out 8k+ in a short window, we have another build where we each can deal 5-6k ranged AoE damage with all four and focus on bursting the tank by targeting the healer when the tank is within range of the same AoE ability - they take 50% of the squishier target's aoe + 100% of their own damage, which ends up being about 125%~ of what you could do to a non tank (The tank's higher mitigation ends up making it less than the 150% you'd think at face value, but still higher than hitting just the tank.)

 

There are plenty of ways to counter defense oriented teams - the easiest being to force a stale mate by having even one tank and two healers out of 8 players - that'll completely shut out a 4+ healer team. They won't have the DPS to kill you if you spread them out and vice versa - so it'll be a matter of who can best utilize CC to complete the objectives.

[ViperI]

@OP: So you're upset that a team that stacks healers can **gasp** heal themselves? You're upset that you, a single dps character, can't run in and roflpwn their entire group? I'm sorry, but I just see this as a case of someone who's upset that their niche isn't the be-all-end-all. You got countered, deal with it. Figure out a better group composition and come back when you got some skillz. A group of all healers is not without it's drawbacks (low dps chief among them). Figure out how to exploit their weaknesses.

[Mannic]

If they're guarded and you're taunted? Absolutely it should take a team effort to instantly kill someone. It doesn't take a full team for me and my four man premade to kill two healers and a tank + DPS much less one healer a tank and 2 DPS. But we aren't needing to do it instantly, we use CC on the tank to pull him away then force lift, we use CC on the other healer - and if they both break their CC's using the two minute timer we go defensive for a minute till our CC is back and do it again while their timers are on cooldown then it's 4 DPS vs 1 healer and 1 DPS. And if it's only one healer and one tank 2 DPS it's even easier. 4 healers vs 2 DPS and healer/tank or 1 DPS 1 tank 2 healers - the 4 healers will never kill us either, so it's a stale mate unless we can put out enough burst to instagib someone.

 

And if you want to talk potential burst - I know of three classes/builds that can output 10k in a split second window individually - I said EVERY class can do 4k. 8x4 = 32k bare minimum, almost enough to kill a guarded healer. Assuming any of the people on the team are decently geared and know how to spec anywhere near competently, they'll be able to push out over 40k damage in a short window quite easily.

 

Not to mention they could just pick one of the healers that ISN'T guarded, or the tank himself as long as his defensive cooldowns aren't up.

 

 

 

Just because you're terrible and can't figure out how to kill healers and tanks, doesn't mean there's something wrong with the relationship between healing, damage and survivability. My four man team has a few setups where we each run a class/build that can put out 8k+ in a short window, we have another build where we each can deal 5-6k ranged AoE damage with all four and focus on bursting the tank by targeting the healer when the tank is within range of the same AoE ability - they take 50% of the squishier target's aoe + 100% of their own damage, which ends up being about 125%~ of what you could do to a non tank (The tank's higher mitigation ends up making it less than the 150% you'd think at face value, but still higher than hitting just the tank.)

 

There are plenty of ways to counter defense oriented teams - the easiest being to force a stale mate by having even one tank and two healers out of 8 players - that'll completely shut out a 4+ healer team. They won't have the DPS to kill you if you spread them out and vice versa - so it'll be a matter of who can best utilize CC to complete the objectives.

 

The above post is full of crap and made-up numbers.

 

A class being capable of a 10K burst doesn't mean that it happens in one GCD, as you say, nor does it mean you're going to get the multiple crits required to output that kind of damage. It also doesn't mean the opposing team is just going to stand there and let you slay their healer. You're obviously a healer trying to make it sound like healers aren't ridiculously OP in this game.

 

Yes, if 3 or 4 people FF a healer and do a really good job of CC you can generally get them down relatively quickly, and by relatively, I mean in 10 seconds. THAT is OP. 2 players focusing a healer should be enough pressure to totally remove that healer from the equation. In TOR, 2 DPS'ers can FF a healer and that healer will survive and still be able to heal his team. That's balance?

 

Why are healers SO important that people think they should have that kind of surviveability? Healers are always important in every game, yet no other game has decided they ought to be virtually unkillable by a single player, and with 2 good DPS'ers can be controlled and little more.

 

And by the way, I'm talking about fighting good healers, not fail healers who waste their CC break at the first sign of trouble and go brain dead as soon as they start taking some damage.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Mannic

[Haeso]

The above post is full of crap and made-up numbers.

 

A class being capable of a 10K burst doesn't mean that it happens in one GCD, as you say, nor does it mean you're going to get the multiple crits required to output that kind of damage. You're obviously a healer trying to make it sound like healers aren't ridiculously OP in this game.

 

Actually yes. One of the force sweep specs does it instantly, Both of the trooper builds that can do it, do the damage instantly.

 

The force sweep spec does not require any chance at all.

 

The vanguard build that does this has over 50% crit chance, you can get to almost 60% iirc. Plastique-> Stock -> High Impact bolt. This damage occurs within 1.75 seconds of each other. No castable damage ability worth mentioning so you can't combine a ton of damage into one GCD, but far more reliable burst if a slightly larger window.

 

The commando build works in a shorter window, but less crit chance so won't break 10k as often. Sticky -> Grav Round -> Demo Round

 

Sticky/Plastique is delayed damage, Grav round is a casted ability so the demo round that follows it lands on the same instant that sticky/grav hit. The bare minimum damage from this combo without crits is over 5k.

 

 

There are more builds, and if you throw in AoE centric builds that sages have, those are pretty nasty. 3k+ each on 5 targets, followed by 3k+ each on 3 targets. Takes about 1.75 seconds for those unless you cast the tele wave normally, in which case it's a little less damage (20% on tele wave) but occurs in a split second, less than .25 easily.

 

Oh and as far as what I play most - I play a shadow, kinetic, the most. I have 7 50s, all but the gunslinger. Soon to be three battlemasters (Majority non-ilum minus the daily/weekly.) I rarely play my sage anymore as either healer or DPS as he's already fully geared. My commando and my shadow are probably my strongest DPS classes, with the shadow also being a fine tank. Sentinel is probably the most fun DPS, but bad against organized groups unfortunately.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Haeso