Next Gen MMO? Please, hear me out.

[ITSAmeee]

I like the game, I do, but maybe I misunderstood what Next Generation means or maybe we simply give different meaning to words.

 

When I think about Next Gen, I think about new mechanics and new aspects of the game and a revamp of old MMO features so to improve them to a point that they feel as new ones.

There is one, only one thing that feels like a Next Gen feature, the way I see it, in SWTOR. But more of this later, instead I would like to start explaining why I think there is no Next Gen in SWTOR by bringing up just a couple of points. Only a couple, because I fear this will be a long post and the reason I'm writing this is not to bring up every single aspect of the game I personally don't find innovative, but just enough of them to explain my points and point of view.

 

 

1- Talent system

 

This is old, so old it is rotting. Already recognized as not appealing anymore to the MMO community. Already confirmed to not be working for today's MMO and MMO players.

What makes an MMO successful? The number of its subscribers. Meaning how many players keep playing the game month after month. MMO content nowadays is so vast and so various, is that alone enough to keep players playing? Not at all obviously. Now, lets not go in game design, balance, new content ecc ecc, lets just focus on Talents. Talents and Content.

 

The three talent trees, xx points to spend, choices to make in trees, everything related to this kind of Talent system does not allow a player, a character, to enjoy in its entirety the game content. The problems is that often, if not always, different game content is approached in different ways by the same person. I want to Heal in Instances and DPS elsewhere. A respec is needed, need to stop playing and go change talents, spend resources on it, set up spells and buttons again. And even if I give up on this because bothers me too much to respec all the time, and I pick a spec for my Healing and to stick with it...even in that case there are choices to make in the talent tree, more pve talents, more pvp talents, some of both ecc.

 

Bare in mind I'm not complaining about having to do that. Those kind of choices and decisions are intrinsic in this kind of class talent system. My problem and what I would like to bring up, is that this is not only an absurdly old talent system, but also something that doesn't work anymore and further more it is something MMOs are moving away from!

 

This talent system maybe worked around the time World of Warcraft launched, but it has been so long ago and the MMO content evolved so much since then that this talent system doesn't cut it anymore. Example?

Blizzard gave up on it, introducing the Dual Spec. "lol what? that's just the same system, you just get two specs instead of one". Correct. And Rift did the same. "lol kiddo, saaaaame! only like 3-4 specs or whatever". Correct. And what does it say? To me, it is the Developers recognizing that the MMO content nowadays cannot be possibly enjoyed entirely by a player with one talent spec, and more generally by a talent system like this one. The Dual-Thrice-Whatever numbers of spec is not a solution, no, it is a message by the MMO Developers: this talent system is not working anymore.

 

Multiple specs is just a temporary solution to a mechanic that is not working anymore. Would I be happy with multiple specs introduced in SWTOR? Hell no! What I would like from a Next Gen MMO is a new talent system, a talent system that works for today's content and players.

Example? Now people on these forums will go nuts, but bare with me: World of Warcraft next expansion. And if you never played WoW or don't want to hear about Mist of Pandaria, then think about Diablo3 (sort of). Those Talent systems is what I call Next Gen. Also in those talents there are choices to make, and allow you to spec tank, heal, dps, pvp, pve, noob, or however you like to enjoy the content you are going to face in the minutes/hours ahead of you.

Talent choice: your charge stuns the enemy for x second longer, your charge stuns x more enemies, your charge frees you from root/snare effects. Pick one.

Talent choice: learn Renew, learn Shield, Learn Healing Wave. Pick one. Just silly example guys about an alternate, new talent system.

 

Able to swap talents almost on the fly (out of combat, in town, also free why not). This was just an example by the way, you may like this new kind of talent system or not, but it is new, it is not the old stiff three - xx points to spend - talent trees we still have in SWTOR after such a long development and after such a big evolution not only in MMOs but also in their community.

"Do you want a talent system like that? then go play that game", well that was not my point nor where I wanted to go. I don't know if I want that talent system or how it works out but personally I think the Tree Talent system is obsolete and needs changed. Sign of it being obsolete are out there already (multiple spec temporary solutions), signs of changes are already there (D3, Pandaria examples), so from a Next Gen I expect a new talent system.

 

By the way, of the things in this post, the Talents one is probably the one that burns me the most. Vanilla WoW has been there for almost 10 years guys, really? Again, there is a reason why MMO using this kind of system are introducing multiple spec choices, and why they are trying to move away from that king of Talent System. "Yeah we got it, it is old", ooooh no, not only that: "They do NOT work anymore".

 

(Just an extra few lines on this, since we are talking about Talents, is there any logical Development reason to why the same spell have different names for the Republic and the Empire? I don't mind having to learn double names for almost every spell in the game, but why? Is there any explanation to this I wonder. Does it help the players or the game, does it make the game better than if it was using the same name for the same ability on the two factions?

Whenever I find a nice forum post or guide or blog about a class or tanking or anything, I have to learn the name of my spells also for the counterpart class in the other faction. Doesn't cost me much really, but I'm curious on why the Developers thought this was good for the game, or its players.)

 

 

2- Looking For Group tool

 

"ahah dude, this is an MMO, learn to interact with ppl, don't be shy", this is probably the classic answer. An MMO is made also of interactions with others, so go out there and interact.

First of all, there are MMO players that do like the solo experience more. This does not make them less worthy of consideration (not by the Dev team nor by the community), nor less players than the others are.

And as second point, how you can consider spamming "LFG Instance level 50 Sorcerer dps" ever 2 minutes in a chat to be social I really don't understand. The Looking for group "experience" should not be placed in the social aspect of an MMO because it is not. You're not socializing in any way with anyone to get in a group for an instance. You don't go to a game bar and spend hours there chatting and knowing each other before you go to the instance. The Social part is when you are IN the group, if you want to take part to it.

 

Looking for a group is a tedious experience, a waste of time. When the game will be old enough to not have that much low levels around, you can socialize spamming LFG in chat all you want, but you will be forever-alone.

Think also about the casual players without a guild to rely on. The players that try out the game for a while. I think you want them to join the content and hopefully enjoy it as soon as possible and the LFG chat surely doesn't go that direction.

Also, imagine if every time you wanted to queue for a PvP match you needed a full group and you had to form it on your server.

 

I want to play a monthly fee to play the game, not to look for groups to play the game (the content). Will the Looking for Group feature ever come? I hope so, but the problem for me is why it is not here already? It is a feature that allows players that enjoy PvE to skip the tedious LFG-chat mechanic. Personally I would expect every new MMO to have such feature, goes without saying I expect it from an MMO advertised as Next Gen.

 

 

3- Addons

 

You may as well read it as Community. Addons, hate them or love them, turned out to be a fundamental aspect of an MMO. The Development creativity of thousands, millions of players cannot be denied and any Development team would love to have so many people out there working to make the game (interface) more enjoyable to the other players.

 

Also, addons can only improve the game experience and that's because the Game Developers those Addons are designed for can determine at any time what is ok and what is not for an addon to do. You give the addon developers the tools you want them to use and the aspects of the game you want them able to access/modify, and there you go. You have control over them and their work, and they are free freelancers for your Development team.

 

Many addons may also turn out to be so good and so appreciated by the community that you as the Game Developer may want to add that feature in your game. A fast example, the on screen spell effects on reactive procs from ability introduced in WoW: addon Power Auras.

 

I think I read somewhere addons will be made available at some point, but then again, why not already? This game has been in development for such a long time, they sure saw all these things coming to light in other MMOs. A Next Gen MMO and no addons?

 

 

4- Extras.

 

What I would expect from Next Gen MMO? New game mechanics. New content.

When I say new content in particular, I don't mean a new Battleground or a new Instance, I mean a fresh new thing to do, a never seen before in a MMO new content. I will give you another example of what I mean, haters be ready: Pet Combat system in World of Warcraft next expansion.

 

Hold on hold on, I didn't say we should all love it and that we all should think that it is great, but from a development point of view that's what I mean with "new content". Something new. In the example, a game within the game (the fact that "Pokemon" has already been seen doesn't change my point). Of course it is up to the Devs to come up with new content to appeal the majority if not all of its players (and if Blizzard did it with the Pet Combat system is absolutely not the topic of this post), but those new contents are what I expect from a Next Gen MMO.

 

 

I'm enjoying the game as I said at the beginning, I simply don't get the Next Gen part of SWTOR. Instead it feels to me like a snapshot of any other MMO (one in particular...haters, please). And what it feels worst to me is that apparently this snapshot was taken way too many years ago and it is nowadays outdated.

 

At the beginning I said that one thing, one only so far really felt as what I expect to be a new standard for future MMO, something you can definitely call Next Gen: questing.

Questing in SWTOR is so well done, SO well done that I'm sure they set a new benchmark, a new standard for any other MMO in the future. After we have experienced this kind of questing (voice acting and storytelling, ecc) I'm sure we MMO players don't want to go back and experience nothing less than this...until next Next Gen questing mechanic obviously

 

So, given the fact of the awesomeness of the questing experience in SWTOR, and the fact that I expect this to be the new standard questing mechanic for any other MMO in the future, is this feature alone enough to call SWTOR a Next Gen MMO? Personally I don't think so.

 

Last comments. I really don't want this to be a debate, but what I would really like to hear is what others think. What is Next Gen in SWTOR for you? What is old and stiff for you?

I wrote only 3 points (plus a forth) that personally make me feel as we're just not there yet, in the Next Gen era. Questing as I said surely is, but the game has so much "old stuff" and is lacking a lot of "unknown Next Gen new content/features" that I don't feel confident calling it a Next Gen MMO.

 

I'm really curious to read your points and your point of view, but not as much interested in your "comments". As I said this was not posted to begin a debate, and as everyone knows: opinions are personal

 

Have fun in the game if you haven't got in yet!

[Togtokes]

Another mad Blizzard Employee.

[Quinnchero]

I wanted to be smuggler, but I took a wall of text to the knee!

[JediMasterRyanW]

I think the words you're erroneously associating are "TOR" and "next-gen".

 

They aren't revolutionizing the MMO genre; they're polishing it and adding Star Wars and story.

[spoondagger]

Some interesting ideas here. Thanks for sharing. I'm also a bit surprised by how similar TOR is to WOW, to the point where it almost feels like a WOW mod/clone. I hope that in the future Bioware has the confidence to differentiate the game a bit more, make it feel more unique, modern, "next-gen," and that they will NOT merely chase/copy WOW features.

[Skiveron]

I agree with the OP about the looking for group thing, Saying "adding LFG tool destroys the social aspect" is stupid, if i want to socialize with people I would go to a club, not e-hang out with nerds.

[Shadouplus]

I don't remember hearing or reading that swtor was next-gen.

[tlvs]

I don't remember hearing or reading that swtor was next-gen.

 

^this. Because there is nothing next-gen in swtor.

[JediOwner]

I agree that looking for a group is not socializing.

 

WoW actually went too far with the random dungeon finder originally, making it pull groups together randomly from across the whole server list. They changed it (I believe with Cataclysm) so that now it first tries to group you with people on your own server, and marks them as such in the UI.

 

That promotes server socializing, and you could take it one step farther by optionally allowing the player to check a box that would force server-only grouping. You'd have to make it selectable because smaller-pop servers would produce long wait times, but the user might still want a longer wait time if they knew they'd be playing with people on their own server, so it's all good.

 

 

--------

<Proud Decemberist!>

"Why do today what I can wait until a long, long time ago to do?"

Edited December 16, 2011 by JediOwner

[Drekster]

I agree that looking for a group is not socializing.

 

WoW actually went too far with the random dungeon finder originally, making it pull groups together randomly from across the whole server list. They changed it (I believe with Cataclysm) so that now it first tries to group you with people on your own server, and marks them as such in the UI.

 

That promotes server socializing, and you could take it one step farther by optionally allowing the player to check a box that would force server-only grouping. You'd have to make it selectable because smaller-pop servers would produce long wait times, but the user might still want a longer wait time if they knew they'd be playing with people on their own server, so it's all good.

 

 

--------

<Proud Decemberist!>

"Why do today what I can wait until a long, long time ago to do?"

 

/like on this idea

[rylixav]

I think the words you're erroneously associating are "TOR" and "next-gen".

 

They aren't revolutionizing the MMO genre; they're polishing it and adding Star Wars and story.

 

Pretty much this. Honestly TOR is exactly what I expected it to be, no better no worse. It's WoW with lightsabers and voice acting, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

Still I share your desire for a new and innovative MMO. I've been waiting for the "Next Gen" for 10 years now. Unfortunately innovation in the genre seems to have ground to a complete halt. In fact there aren't even any innovative MMOs under serious development as far as I can tell.

Edited December 16, 2011 by rylixav

[Presbytier]

I really don't believe that the majority of gamers hate the talent tree nor the trinity. Just because it has been around does not make "rotting".

[JekRendar]

1.) TOR is what the NGE should have been. Anyone who was privileged enough to play the Original Star Wars MMO around that time knows this.

 

2.) BioWare has never, EVER been known for innovation. That's not what they do. They are storytellers. Period. July 2003 - KotOR is released. It's a TURN-BASED RPG launched in an era of ACTION RPGs.

 

And KotOR went on to win many awards.

 

(Honestly, I could say the same about WoW. Nothing original, EQ clone, etc, and yet it gained 10M+ subscriptions.)

[Lazarious]

People need to stop trying to compare Star Wars the old Republic Online to WoW....seriously, I was and am, that is until my anual pass runs out, a WoW player. Now keep in mind, No i did not get into beta testing, and I'm still waiting on my code in the email. So I have not been able to play and accuratly give a reasonable comment, being pro or con, toward star wars, but i can however tell everyone, that all of the "things that are so alike WoW" arent really a WoW exclusive or made up concept, you have to realize WoW came alot off of ever quest, truth be told, and If you compare those two games....WoW beats the hell out of Ever Quest...some things like the talents or LFG system may be like WoW but there is really no room to say that it's soo much like WoW....

[MargulisAZ]

You asked what is next-gen in SWTOR for me?

 

The voice-acting, story and cut scenes.

 

What is stale / old

 

EVERYTHING else.

[CaptNovogrod]

I really don't believe that the majority of gamers hate the talent tree nor the trinity. Just because it has been around does not make "rotting".

 

I love it, it gives me the feel of class customization. Maybe I don't want to BE a pure Arsenal spec. Maybe I want to play a hybrid? Or just approach the class in a different way. The fact that they are doing this less in WoW is actually the reason I've quit.

[Neverall]

I love the quest system. And agree this is the new standard.

 

I also agree the Talent System is pretty outdated. My thoughts are a little different however, as I would of liked to see something more dynamic based on what a player actually does in the game. If you use a spell over and over, you should be awesome at it. If you craft something over and over, there should be a perk to it because you have mastered that item/type of item/etc.. I honestly don't believe you should be able to "Switch" your talent/role at a blink of the eye, it should be based on your actual activity, that said, if you are talented enough to do multiple things, you should be able to do them all at the same time.

 

Looking for group tool is a given. No one wants to waste time looking for someone to play with at 3am, or 6am. Not everyone plays at peak time. I for one, don't want to see scroll chat of LFG's. It's why I don't even read 90% of it. The only time I do read it, is when someone else tells me something interesting is being said - because I dislike LFG that much.

 

I also feel that during production, they should of considered implementing all the other known loves of the mmo community (Add ons, Guild Banks, LFG tools, Guild Quests etc). When I received the survey to designate my top 3 important features, I was so disappointed.

 

The bottom line is SWTOR is competing for my monthly subscription from games that have already added standard features the mmo community is accustomed to and already shows a vast preference for.

 

I hope I don't have to wait 4+ months to see some of the basics implemented (like I did with Rift). I am hoping to play SWTOR for a very long time - but not if it turns out to be another crap out like the last 6 months have been with another mmo... (to remain unnamed).

[makau]

OP, you really need to talk with someone in market research. Or do a little research yourself maybe. All of the features you complained about, are the current reasons why the big popular mmos are so successful. So your opinions are actually in the minority. Most people like these features and that's why they pay for games with them. These features are part of the reason why TOR has sold so many pre-orders, and why TOR will be a very successful game for many years. It has all of the current popular features from the big mmos, and a few innovations of it's own. Remember, it took a lot of mmos many years to acquire these features. TOR is gonna have them at release, so imagine what TOR will have in a few years... It will definitely be things considered 'Next gen'.

[rylixav]

OP, you really need to talk with someone in market research. Or do a little research yourself maybe. All of the features you complained about, are the current reasons why the big popular mmos are so successful. So your opinions are actually in the minority. Most people like these features and that's why they pay for games with them. These features are part of the reason why TOR has sold so many pre-orders, and why TOR will be a very successful game for many years.

 

Citation needed.

 

(Seriously though link some of that "market research" you mentioned, since you've obviously read it.)

[Regnerius]

1.) TOR is what the NGE should have been. Anyone who was privileged enough to play the Original Star Wars MMO around that time knows this.

 

2.) BioWare has never, EVER been known for innovation. That's not what they do. They are storytellers. Period. July 2003 - KotOR is released. It's a TURN-BASED RPG launched in an era of ACTION RPGs.

 

And KotOR went on to win many awards.

 

(Honestly, I could say the same about WoW. Nothing original, EQ clone, etc, and yet it gained 10M+ subscriptions.)

 

Very well put and I agree. Both with 1 and 2. BioWare did exactly what we all thought they would.

[JoshAlison]

Well, WoW is incredibly boring now. I log in, log out 2mins later. Years ago there use to be a drive to go mine stuff, but its just straight up boring now.

 

TOR brings a completely new game which is a brand new experience which is looking great, so I'm out of WoW as i have been for quite some time and straight into TOR!!

[SniperCT]

TOR = Evolution.

 

They've never claimed to be anything more.

[ippollite]

i would suggest it IS a next gen MMO, but it depends what youre looking at. In terms of stories and all that, sure its innovative. In terms of talents, sure its old hat. This stuff is window dressing though.

 

Its real effect is how they solve the problem of keeping you subscribing.

 

Wow is a massive gear grind. Theres no problem that cant be fixed by printing more gear and throwing it at the playerbase. Entertainment and immersion is all sacrificed to the gods of grinding. You play so that you can play the game you want to play sometime later on. Its endlessly deferred gratification. Its the 42 of life the universe and azeroth.

 

If SWTOR ends up down that road its messed up since wow has spent the last 6 years recognising this mistake and trying to find ways to speed up the playerbase and let them skip waves so they dont get clobbered every time they log out and fall behind. If they could press a playerbase reset button and have us at year dot they would have done EXACTLY what SWTOR is doing. Its driven by the anti-gear grind. We shall see how true this is after the first year, but i have a feeling theyll have learned from wows mistakes and have in place a plan to bring forward content without making players feel like they need to log in for months to keep up. We shall see though if they do have a radical solution to it all im quietly hoping though

[makau]

Citation needed.

 

(Seriously though link some of that "market research" you mentioned, since you've obviously read it.)

 

Ok. This link shows how WoW currently has around 10.3 million subs. And that's way down from earlier this year. I'd say that's a successful mmo, yes? The game has been out 7 years and still has over 10 million subs. Obviously people like talent trees, and the new Looking for Dungeon tools.

 

Trion won't currently release sub numbers for Rift. But we all know it has been pretty successful. Despite not only having the same theme, but similar features to WoW. Again, it's easy to see, that people like most of these features.

Edited December 16, 2011 by makau

[Angedechu]

What is not helping about separating WoW from TOR is that both use exactly the same default setup.

 

It's really uncanny when after doing some dungeons in WoW, using /p and /g to alternate party chat and guild chat, you do exactly the same thing in TOR.