Tone down Smash/Force Sweep

[Chaosmagistrate]

ORLY? All hints i see are "pop all your escape abilities and run the fck away before it's too late" And if i can't run? Not everyone plays sorc/sage, not everyone is ranged. Do you honestly think your 6k+ smashes are balanced after surge-nerf if operative's hidden strike was considered op with 4-5k with old surge?

 

If you are going to keep bringing up Ops/Scs then I kindly remind you that the with buff-stacks, Ops/Scs were seing 9k crits on Shoot First with a 3s Knockdown component, followed by Back Blasts and Sucker punches critting for 5k and 3k respectively. The nerf was to prevent the insta-gibb feeling that people would die without control of their character. Now personally, I think the nerfs may have been a bit overboard, but nonetheless were needed.

 

The Force Sweep may need to be toned down, but not the move itself, because the move itself hits like a wet paper noodle. The talent syngeries may need to be looked at, say Singularity grants 175%, and maybe the Juggs have 25% instead of 30%.

 

But even on my Sc I can time most people's Force Sweeps to soak and run down their timer or keep their Rage generation in check. It's not all "run away".

 

Example rotation for my Sc.

 

Stasis.

Kick immediately. Do some damage.

2s Immobilize at 3s and run back a little. If you lucky, the Jugg will blow it and miss. If not.

Wait for the leap, Flashbang. He is full resolve. Still hasn't gotten a sweep off. At this point the buff has been run down 6-8s.

 

He CC breaks. Pop Shield screen, soak the hit.

Dodge to clear it and to prevent him from building Rage.

 

Once exhaustion finishes. Immobilize for 2s and back away. He may not even have enough Rage to do Zealous Leap. If he does, you will probably have to eat the next one, especially if it is a Push-Leap-Smash.

 

Due to Rage starvation and cooldowns, he no longer can Smash for at least 9s..

 

I may still lose, as I am only at 319 expertise as of last night, but the point is, I was able to mitigate the damage over time.

 

It doesn't always work this way, and even under that rotation, I still eat two sweeps, but i'ts over a pretty good span of time, which I can either Vanish and reset the encounter or Vanish and re-open, but it's a fightin' chance.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Chaosmagistrate

[fadingdimension]

Im a jug.. I always thought it would be cool if Rage Smash was swapped out with Force Scream... 10m range but only single target. Seems fair to me. Edited February 23, 2012 by fadingdimension

[Kabaal]

I'll be sure to take some screenshots of my highest damage hits in my WZs from now on. I never saw the point since I assumed other equally geared Rage Juggs would be doing similar damage.

 

I'm not saying that you don't see those numbers once in a while but i don't believe for one second they are your 'average' unbuffed and buffed hits with it. Unbuffed the skill didn't even hit for more than 3 to 4k ish on squishy targets with stacked surge before the surge nerf, even then it wasn't an average that's for sure. I only have the experience of my server where most are battlemaster/champion, you could possibly be fighting undergeared new 50s non stop for all i know, but there's also no way you 'average' 6 to 7k with buffed smash, once in a blue moon on someone new to the tier perhaps but i'd wager fully buffed it's more like 4ish to 5.5 with the occasional 6k as it is for me, i've hit one sorc for 6k recently... who was in a green robe.

 

There's a difference between average and what you sometimes get. There's also a difference between remembering how things once were and how they are now

Edited February 23, 2012 by Kabaal

[Sir-Coffee]

I play a Jugg (Full BM / Champ gear). I have Smash Crits that can reach up to 6900 popping everything I have.

 

Having said that, if I hit you with one of those attacks, then I feel sorry for you. The amount of setup it takes to achieve this crit is just laughable.

 

Let's see, Knockback Force Charge and smash does 10% less damage, or Knockback smash. It's not hard at all, in fact, many people actually have the mental capacity to use knockbacks in this game.

 

After the Smash, we can crit for a 3k on Force Scream(If we are lucky).

 

Conclusion: Knockback or Stun a Jugg as he is using Force Charge/Smash.

[skarlson]

To put this in perspective the single target 31 point dps talent in lightning for sorcerers might crit for half this aoe ability can do to multiple targets at once. Sorry but that is OP. If Sorcerer's were hitting people witih a top level talent that is single target for 6k every 9s you same people who defend this would be crying nerf. 6k+ damage to multiple targets in one GCD is to much damage. Smash is not even a top level talent, it isn't even a talent at all. Edited February 23, 2012 by skarlson

[Chaim]

I have never hit a 6k smash in my full champion gear set as a rage Juggernaut, and trust me, i try every chance i get. Granted I hit a lot harder than 2.5k on a smash, but if it is really easy to predict it happening and here is how. First we pop a trinket, if off cd, and jump into a group, next we force choke/force crush, and then we build rage and reduce the targets armor for about 3 seconds while we wait for shockwave to stack to 4 and then smash while we still have the guaranteed critical smash, 5% damage bonus from 4 set, the power/crit from trinket. That is the optimal situation and can happen if left unchecked and i only hit above 5k on under geared 50's that didn't pop any defensive cds. Any decent player can learn to avoid this and only the dumbest ranged have not learned to run away from a melee class when they are running after you. I think what you really want is for us to have a cast time on smash so we can be interrupted like a Bounty Hunter's Death from Above before we can do any real damage.

Possibly you might be angry that there is a dps class with taunts that can do almost as much damage as a DPS inquisitor that can "spam" the same move for big numbers. Next time i see and inquisitor railing on the enemy from the top of their perch in huttball, I'll make sure I Force Jump, force crush, and slam him/her those big numbers before they cc me and run away.

There is no way you signed up for the inquisitor without seeing that they were wearing a dress, and expected them to be anything more than glass cannons/med-packs. You are by far the most effective class at avoiding the smash all together with a 150% speed ability, electrocute (also one of the few stuns that dots), overload aoe knockback.

If you want a class that you can sit and spam 1 over and over, roll a merc/commando and spam tracer missile/grav round and watch the numbers until you are ready to finish them with rail shot/high impact bolt. You don't even have to worry about getting smashed because you have concussion missile, afterburner buffed rocket punch, electro dart, and jet escape whenever we get close enough to hit you.

I think that covers all of the classes except for operatives whom I will leave alone. As much as I hate to say it, they probably need a buff to their mobility (not so much their damage). I really only feel threatened by them when they get behind me and start to kick and shiv. It is also mildly annoying when I get close to killing them and they go invisible and try to run away in an attempt to delay their death, hoping their dots will kill me.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Chaim

[Reveillere]

I play a level 49 Juggernaut. When i was specced rage a couple levels ago, and stacking relics+pvp buff (72% surge geared) my full Shockwave Smash didnt even reach 4k+ on level 2x players.

 

That was BEFORE surge nerf, so bring screenshots or ****

 

Edit: ****= G T F O

 

Level 49 + has no clue that there are replacements for surge = **** n00b

[skarlson]

I have never hit a 6k smash in my full champion gear set as a rage Juggernaut, and trust me, i try every chance i get. Granted I hit a lot harder than 2.5k on a smash, but if it is really easy to predict it happening and here is how. First we pop a trinket, if off cd, and jump into a group, next we force choke/force crush, and then we build rage and reduce the targets armor for about 3 seconds while we wait for shockwave to stack to 4 and then smash while we still have the guaranteed critical smash, 5% damage bonus from 4 set, the power/crit from trinket. That is the optimal situation and can happen if left unchecked and i only hit above 5k on under geared 50's that didn't pop any defensive cds. Any decent player can learn to avoid this and only the dumbest ranged have not learned to run away from a melee class when they are running after you. I think what you really want is for us to have a cast time on smash so we can be interrupted like a Bounty Hunter's Death from Above before we can do any real damage.

Possibly you might be angry that there is a dps class with taunts that can do almost as much damage as a DPS inquisitor that can "spam" the same move for big numbers. Next time i see and inquisitor railing on the enemy from the top of their perch in huttball, I'll make sure I Force Jump, force crush, and slam him/her those big numbers before they cc me and run away.

There is no way you signed up for the inquisitor without seeing that they were wearing a dress, and expected them to be anything more than glass cannons/med-packs. You are by far the most effective class at avoiding the smash all together with a 150% speed ability, electrocute (also one of the few stuns that dots), overload aoe knockback.

If you want a class that you can sit and spam 1 over and over, roll a merc/commando and spam tracer missile/grav round and watch the numbers until you are ready to finish them with rail shot/high impact bolt. You don't even have to worry about getting smashed because you have concussion missile, afterburner buffed rocket punch, electro dart, and jet escape whenever we get close enough to hit you.

I think that covers all of the classes except for operatives whom I will leave alone. As much as I hate to say it, they probably need a buff to their mobility (not so much their damage). I really only feel threatened by them when they get behind me and start to kick and shiv. It is also mildly annoying when I get close to killing them and they go invisible and try to run away in an attempt to delay their death, hoping their dots will kill me.

 

So you are ok with Sorcerer's key damage abilities becoming instant to avoid interruption? Let's turn thundering blast into an instant so it is uninterruptable and give it similar damage potential to just a single target. Guaranteed you same people will be here on the forums crying for nerfs in droves. Pot meet kettle.

[bamsmacked]

This warrior ability needs to be looked at. Hitting for over 6k regullary with 9(15 untalented) sec CD AFTER SURGE NERF is stupid. Note that i don't ask to nerf warrior overall DPS - it's just their damage need to be split around several abilites instead of one single bomb.

 

Do you have any idea how easy it is to avoid a smash/sweep bomb?

 

Do you have any idea how long it actually takes to build up that one burst?

 

Apparently not. I'm not a focuse/rage bomber but I know that it takes a good 18-20 seconds just to build up ticks and then not to mention you have to leap on to something to get your felling blow or dominate.

 

The range of the sweep/smash is 5 meters. Not a very big AoE, and it's easily avoidable all you have to do is look at their buffs. If they throw you in a stasis or choke, immediately unleash from it and use whatever form of CC you have and boom you've interrupted their burst build.

 

My guess is that you sometimes get hit by a sweep/smash bomb and then complain about it being overpowered when you haven't even taken the time to consider that it really cannot be done but once for every 20 seconds and how pathetically easy to avoid the actual sweep is.

 

Believe me I've had sweep/smash bombers running around stupid, rooted, stunned, CC'ed (On my guardian, using Awe, Stasis, Push, Freezing Force to slow them down) and when they're about to run out of time they desperately blow off their smash only to realize that I wasn't in range! Hah!

 

Yeah so overpowered. Takes them 20+ seconds to build up an easly avoidable burst attack yet Mercs, Commandos and hybrid sorcs and sages can easily dish out 350k+ worth of damage with less hassle.

[skarlson]

You are saying it takes you 12 to 13 GCDs to build up to that ability? I find that immensely hard to believe, sounds like quite the overstatement to me.

[Subatia]

You are saying it takes you 12 to 13 GCDs to build up to that ability? I find that immensely hard to believe, sounds like quite the overstatement to me.

 

It would take a minimum of 4 GCDs to build up the buffs we need. If you can't CC/KB/run away in 8-10 seconds, you deserve to get hit.

[longgrassgrows]

That's it, what i want is a combo. Not a single bomb-hit. Again, i don't want your overall DPS to go down. I want your damage spread across your abilities instead of 1 button.

 

it is a combo, with force choke...and it is SOOOOOOOOO easy to avoid its laughable(YOU CAN SEE THE BUFF!!!!!!!), they can only really use it once per engagement, and honestly, 5-6k really isnt thaaaaat much, especially if it can only be used once.

[skarlson]

Right, because you are just sitting there not attempting to get close at all. The same logic that says I deserve to get hit if I can't get away also states you deserve to get hit for my big ability from range if you can't do something as simple as LOS. Except, we don't have a big ability like that and you wouldn't accept that logic. It has been used countless times by ranged classes on this very forum and been dismissed as not acceptable yet you choose to use it yourself. If you are ok with it then I want TB to do the same dmg your ability does to multiple people but just one target, I want it instant and the solution to avoiding it is for you to look for affliction on your buff bar and LOS or stun/cc us in some manner. If you can't do that then you deserve to get hit. Any takers?

[MPagano]

Right, because you are just sitting there not attempting to get close at all. The same logic that says I deserve to get hit if I can't get away also states you deserve to get hit for my big ability from range if you can't do something as simple as LOS. Except, we don't have a big ability like that and you wouldn't accept that logic. It has been used countless times by ranged classes on this very forum and been dismissed as not acceptable yet you choose to use it yourself. If you are ok with it then I want TB to do the same dmg your ability does to multiple people but just one target, I want it instant and the solution to avoiding it is for you to look for affliction on your buff bar and LOS or stun/cc us in some manner. If you can't do that then you deserve to get hit. Any takers?

 

I'm a taker. I'd lke to take a class in your debating skills. They're hilarious.

[skarlson]

What's funny is committing a classic logical fallacy while you are insulting my logic skills. That is quite humorous!

[Crujido]

No?

 

Its incredibly easy to see. When he leaps to you, watch out and pay attention for the rising number on his buffs.

[Chaosmagistrate]

Has anyone even considered the fact that outside of Smash and Choke and Exhaustion and for Guardians, the ensuing Bladestorm, they hit like little girls when none of these moves are up and synced together?

 

In group situations, I always kick or stun a Choke. I always do knockbacks to ensure they don't get an optimal Smash.

 

I don't even play Focus spec or play a Guardian/Juggernaut for that matter and I'm not asking for a nerf. The spec is all honesty is pretty cool fun, and seeing big numbers is always fun, but outside of destroying people in Voidstar, I personally find the spec lacklustre as it mirrors similar issues with Combat as it's all build up to a single move that can mitigated half the time. Focus/Rage spec must Smash/Sweep, it's all they really have going, which is the saddest part. The spec is the only viable burst spec if you don't like playing Watchman, and it is the only viable DPS Guardian/Jugg spec.

 

I have more issues with Sorc bubble pop stun than I have with Sweep/Smash.

[Chaosmagistrate]

Right, because you are just sitting there not attempting to get close at all. The same logic that says I deserve to get hit if I can't get away also states you deserve to get hit for my big ability from range if you can't do something as simple as LOS. Except, we don't have a big ability like that and you wouldn't accept that logic. It has been used countless times by ranged classes on this very forum and been dismissed as not acceptable yet you choose to use it yourself. If you are ok with it then I want TB to do the same dmg your ability does to multiple people but just one target, I want it instant and the solution to avoiding it is for you to look for affliction on your buff bar and LOS or stun/cc us in some manner. If you can't do that then you deserve to get hit. Any takers?

 

So you intend to compare an ability that that can be cast at ranged, that you can instant-cast WM at ranged uninterruptable witha 15s timer on multiple targets if necessary, than cast a ranged ability to take advantage of the damage spike that also AoEs...

 

compared to a melee-range ability that requires you to generally be with 10m of the target to begin your debuff, thereby reducing your general versatitility(because your leaps must be saved to get the Sweep buff) that relies on a long coolodwn choke, which can be interrupted, and one of two ranged leaps that are needed to proc the necessary buff then to hope that the target is within range after the leap.

 

If you want to play the LOS game, why don't you just LOS the Jugg, then he won't be able to Leap and Smash. Can't get smashed if you LOS the Jugg so he can't proc the buff off Leap. See what I did thur?

[Pullzar]

That's it, what i want is a combo. Not a single bomb-hit. Again, i don't want your overall DPS to go down. I want your damage spread across your abilities instead of 1 button.

 

Ok i havent read all this (ten pages by now) but, you do realize, it IS a combo, right?

Im 50 Marauder so, I've yet to have mine hit 4k (3940 has been my highest so far, once) but, we hafta do quite a bit to get it to build up. Its a series of moves (hence COMBO) that hafta be executed within a certain time frame, and if you dont do it right, ur not hittin that hard. Its not like we can just go out there, hit "smash" and nail everything around us for 4-6k...

[Chaim]

12-15 seconds to buffed smash? Yikes!

I would go back to vengeance if it took that long. 1 second to force jump someone and force crush applies 1 tick of shock wave each tick for a total of 5 ticks over 5 seconds. So in total it should take about 5-6 seconds before smash bomb which is why i prefer to intercede and then force charge when smash is ready so i can just bomb a group with a fully buffed smash. If you play PvP, 5 seconds is still a long time and with a 5 meter range, it is not terribly difficult to avoid.

If you want to know what the developers think about this look up the blogs from the Combat mechanics developer Greg Zoeller:

"Mobility/Anti Kiting (PvP) – We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage. We intend to address this in an upcoming patch where, as a first step, Force Push will clear the cooldown of Force Leap, granting for more reliable in combat pursuit capabilities to the Advanced Class. Further changes will be made if necessary.

DPS spec survivability (PvP and PvE) – The DPS specs on Guardian and Juggernaut are performing to our expectations when it comes to the ability to create damage, especially of the burst variety. However their survivability is lagging behind our expectations, especially in the later game."

[Wraiven]

Wrong - you can interupts and stun....you dont need burst but burst will make it faceroll easy. Melee loves faceroll easy.

 

Riiiight. Which is why 75% of PvPers have rolled Ranged. Commandos are on the rise, notice? People always play the OP classes, so if the rise of Commandos are rearing their faces, perhaps it is a Commando player pointing the finger at a melee class in hopes to divert attention away from his/her own OPness.

[Absoloot]

Let me chime in here to this lulfest of a whiney attempt of getting smash nerfed.

 

I'm a lvl 50, Valor 65 Rage Specced Juggy in Full BM and power surge stacked like a fat kid on a cupcake.

 

With my relic, adrenal and the off chance all stars align (4 stacks of Shockwave + 10% bonus from force leap) I crit for MAYBE and I mean MAYBE 4.5K on champion geared opponents.

 

Now, if you are new to the pvp scense and are in a mixture of blue, greens, and Centurion gear... You can bet your bottom dollar I'm critting you for close to 6K.

 

So as previous posters have said, screenshots or it didn't happen.

 

/patiently awaits screenies.

[Fan_Atic]

Right, because you are just sitting there not attempting to get close at all. The same logic that says I deserve to get hit if I can't get away also states you deserve to get hit for my big ability from range if you can't do something as simple as LOS. Except, we don't have a big ability like that and you wouldn't accept that logic. It has been used countless times by ranged classes on this very forum and been dismissed as not acceptable yet you choose to use it yourself. If you are ok with it then I want TB to do the same dmg your ability does to multiple people but just one target, I want it instant and the solution to avoiding it is for you to look for affliction on your buff bar and LOS or stun/cc us in some manner. If you can't do that then you deserve to get hit. Any takers?

 

If you're moving and we're moving smash won't land that's just how it is there is a 1.5 second animation delay so if you're moving at all you range this massive 5m aoe....

 

6k once in a blue moon while it's not hard to get a over 5k a few times during a match it's still only 30% of someones hp at best. It's all juggs/guards have every other ability crits for 2-3k with buffs popped. Our 31 point talents in both dps trees are dots and don't brake 3k over the duration. They also have 15second+ cooldowns.

 

If you'd like to buff those by say 50-75% then you can nerf smash ;-) Hell give me something I can spam on GCD that hits for more than 400.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Fan_Atic

[DarkWarAngel]

This warrior ability needs to be looked at. Hitting for over 6k regullary with 9(15 untalented) sec CD AFTER SURGE NERF is stupid. Note that i don't ask to nerf warrior overall DPS - it's just their damage need to be split around several abilites instead of one single bomb.

 

What do you play?

 

Edited for better idea: How about lets tone down all the cries for a Nerf!!!

Edited February 23, 2012 by DarkWarAngel

[biowareftw]

This warrior ability needs to be looked at. Hitting for over 6k regullary with 9(15 untalented) sec CD AFTER SURGE NERF is stupid. Note that i don't ask to nerf warrior overall DPS - it's just their damage need to be split around several abilites instead of one single bomb.

 

Yeah we need more people rerolling sage/sorc and commandos/mercs...

 

I don't play a guardian/jug. I play a sent/marauder and I stand with them in saying...

 

You are pants on head...you know what.

 

You are prob a sorc that doesn't cleanse force crush aren't you...

 

I hate you...